McDaniel on FCPS budget

[Anonymous]

jvmorgan wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
“Meals tax = cheap tax revenues (30% discount)

Real estate tax = expensive tax revenues (0% discount)

Meals tax plus real estate tax better than real estate tax alone.”

Not sure if the my note wasn’t clear. No new or tax increase is the message. Work with what is there and manage priorities. Can’t keep throwing money at challenges.

Just trying to draw attention to how a meals tax addresses the interests of all Fairfax County citizens, including those who think taxes are too high. I am a big proponent of principled negotiation, which among other things includes focusing on interests, not positions (https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Yes-Negotiating-Agreement-Without/dp/0143118757/). Obviously if you have decided that there are no circumstances in which you would support diversifying Fairfax County tax revenues with a meals tax—that is you have taken a hard position—there is little to nothing I can do to get you to even consider considering a different position or finding some compromise or common ground. But others are likely to see how this wonky issue of how tax revenues are raised in Fairfax County (a separate question from how much taxes are collected) actually addresses their interests (e.g., finding the easiest, less costly way available to raise revenues, improving predictability of expected future real estate tax rates, achieving greater regional parity and fairness in tax policies in Northern Virginia).

Bond funded projects? There's regional parity and fairmes on tax policies then there is the reality of the subject jurosdiction. 2015 https://www.mountvernongazette.com/news/2012/mar/29/fairfax-supervisors-stormwater-fee/?template_preference=desktop Who owned the land zoned for a school for current Herndon/Carson MS area prior to ISA?

No special tax district - see Reston. Undedicated meals tax up o 6% versus dedicated meal tax for lowering stormwater tax now at .0325? https://www.mountvernongazette.com/news/2012/mar/29/fairfax-supervisors-stormwater-fee/?template_preference=desktop

[Anonymous]

jvmorgan wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ppl asking for more taxes won’t understand those who don’t have anymore to give. This is sad.

I cannot speak for everyone who supports adopting a meals tax in Fairfax County, but I can say I don’t understand how those who plead they cannot afford more meals taxes would be opposed to a tax where the citizens of Fairfax County raise $1 for every 70¢ they spend. To me, that seems like a really good deal.

The attacks I see against adopting a meals tax tend to be based on speculation of what the Board of Supervisors would do if they adopted a meals tax. I hear claims that the Board of Supervisors won’t lower real estate taxes or will just raise them. But these seem irrelevant to me. The Board of Supervisors has the authority to leave the real estate tax rate untouched, raise the real estate tax, or lower the real estate tax rate regardless whether they have adopted a meals tax. And it’s not like they don’t have any political incentives to try lowering the real estate tax rate as much as possible. Paying less in taxes is generally rather popular among tax payers. But when the main source of revenue comes from real estate taxes with little diversification, it is difficult to make the popular move of lowering or at least maintaining real estate tax rates, especially if those revenues are not growing quickly enough to maintain essential or popular county government services. Diversifying those tax revenues—especially with a tax that provides a built in 30% discount to Fairfax County residents—would give the Board of Supervisors more flexibility in decision-making related to real estate taxes. It just strikes me as a no brainer and I have a hard time understanding why a portion of Fairfax County residents are so dead set against this tax diversification option. It’s really not a matter of not being willing to understand opposition as a matter, given the arguments that have been made against a meals tax, of being capable of understanding the basis for opposition.

The board of supervisors just raised the real estate tax another 3%.

They raise the tax every year.

On the years they don't raise the rate, they raise the assessments by random, crazy amounts, sometimes by six figure amounts with no improvements to the properties.

The property taxes have been raised by a very steep amount over the past 2 terms

FCPS and Fairfax County need extensive audits before enacting a single new tax.

[jvmorgan]

Anonymous wrote:
“I can think of hypothetical scenarios in which I would not support diversifying the Fairfax County tax revenue base. For example, if Alexandria, Arlington, City of Fairfax, Falls Church, Herndon, Leesburg, Manassas, Manassas Park, Prince William County, and Town of Vienna started to rethink, maybe even repeal their meals taxes, then I would question the wisdom of adopting a meals tax. . .”

So if everyone jumps off a bridge, you should too? Great logic.

It makes sense not to get too far ahead or behind, relative to similarly situated jurisdictions, when it comes to tax policies in a region. Being the only jurisdiction to levy a particular tax (as described in the hypothetical) could make your jurisdiction relatively less compatible than neighboring jurisdictions in some area. And if (again as described in the hypothetical) those neighboring jurisdictions are rolling back a particular tax, it makes a lot of sense to at least understand what is driving such decision-making before adopting the type of tax your neighbors seem to be second-guessing.

On the flip side, holding out when it comes to adopting a tax that the vast majority of neighboring jurisdictions have adopted can mean turning away benefits that may have spurred those neighbors to adopt the tax in the first place. A meals tax is an interesting example because in a region like Northern Virginia, which has a lot of individuals routinely traveling among the various jurisdictions for work and play, a jurisdiction can expect that a significant portion of revenues will come from non-residents. So all our neighbors are taxing not just the food away from home expenditures of their respective citizens, they are also taxing the food away from home expenditures of citizens from neighboring jurisdictions who are visiting (including citizens of Fairfax County). With the status quo, Fairfax County is turning away millions of dollars per year from residents of Alexandria, Arlington, City of Fairfax, Falls Church, Herndon, Leesburg, Manassas, Manassas Park, Prince William County, and Town of Vienna.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jvmorgan wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Long word salads in some threads. Simplify - no meal tax, flat real estate tax. How does taxes increase more than my pay increase which is not annual anymore? Voting for no meal tax or any new taxes period.

Meals tax = cheap tax revenues (30% discount)

Real estate tax = expensive tax revenues (0% discount)

Meals tax plus real estate tax better than real estate tax alone.

Not sure if the my note wasn’t clear. No new or tax increase is the message. Work with what is there and manage priorities. Can’t keep throwing money at challenges.

The increases in property taxes over the past few years has completely wiped out all the savings I gained by refinancing at the bottom of the interest rate dip.

My payments are now more than they were when we refinanced, by several hundred dollars a month. The increase is 100^ property tax increases

I feel very sorry for those who bought a home 2021 or later. Their property taxes and payments must be astronomical.

No. New. Taxes.

Audit FCPS.

Cut pay of the Gatehouse leadership.

[jvmorgan]

Anonymous wrote:
The increases in property taxes over the past few years has completely wiped out all the savings I gained by refinancing at the bottom of the interest rate dip.

My payments are now more than they were when we refinanced, by several hundred dollars a month. The increase is 100^ property tax increases

. . .

No. New. Taxes.

You should double-check your homeowner’s insurance premiums to make sure they weren’t jacked up at some point in the last several years. If they were (and it can be easy to miss), then that can contribute to higher mortgage payments (for the escrow account). That happened to us a few years ago. Very significant increase in the insurance rate without explanation. Called the insurer and negotiated a new rate, helping to avoid a significant expense.

[Anonymous]

I too am paying more now for the house I bought back in 2014 due to property taxes and I also refinanced to a great rate during the interest rate dip. My homeowners insurance has stayed pretty consistent over all those years, but my property taxes have increased 50% since 2014.

[Anonymous]

jvmorgan wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The increases in property taxes over the past few years has completely wiped out all the savings I gained by refinancing at the bottom of the interest rate dip.

My payments are now more than they were when we refinanced, by several hundred dollars a month. The increase is 100^ property tax increases

. . .

No. New. Taxes.

You should double-check your homeowner’s insurance premiums to make sure they weren’t jacked up at some point in the last several years. If they were (and it can be easy to miss), then that can contribute to higher mortgage payments (for the escrow account). That happened to us a few years ago. Very significant increase in the insurance rate without explanation. Called the insurer and negotiated a new rate, helping to avoid a significant expense.

Insurance rates are going up across the country due to disasters prompted by climate change. A lot of states have it much worse than we do, but this is only going to get worse. Something to think about if you're stretching your budget to buy a home.

[Anonymous]

jvmorgan wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ppl asking for more taxes won’t understand those who don’t have anymore to give. This is sad.

I cannot speak for everyone who supports adopting a meals tax in Fairfax County, but I can say I don’t understand how those who plead they cannot afford more meals taxes would be opposed to a tax where the citizens of Fairfax County raise $1 for every 70¢ they spend. To me, that seems like a really good deal.

The attacks I see against adopting a meals tax tend to be based on speculation of what the Board of Supervisors would do if they adopted a meals tax. I hear claims that the Board of Supervisors won’t lower real estate taxes or will just raise them. But these seem irrelevant to me. The Board of Supervisors has the authority to leave the real estate tax rate untouched, raise the real estate tax, or lower the real estate tax rate regardless whether they have adopted a meals tax. And it’s not like they don’t have any political incentives to try lowering the real estate tax rate as much as possible. Paying less in taxes is generally rather popular among tax payers. But when the main source of revenue comes from real estate taxes with little diversification, it is difficult to make the popular move of lowering or at least maintaining real estate tax rates, especially if those revenues are not growing quickly enough to maintain essential or popular county government services. Diversifying those tax revenues—especially with a tax that provides a built in 30% discount to Fairfax County residents—would give the Board of Supervisors more flexibility in decision-making related to real estate taxes. It just strikes me as a no brainer and I have a hard time understanding why a portion of Fairfax County residents are so dead set against this tax diversification option. It’s really not a matter of not being willing to understand opposition as a matter, given the arguments that have been made against a meals tax, of being capable of understanding the basis for opposition.

Members of the Fairfax County Board Of Supervisors are part-time employees. They voted themselves a 30% pay increase for supervisors, and 40% for the chair. This increases supervisors’ annual salaries to $123,283, and the board chair’s pay to $138,283. You think they are going to do the right thing to reduce property taxes if we vote to allow a meals tax?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jvmorgan wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
“A meals tax would save Fairfax County residents money compared with raising the same revenues through real estate taxes, thanks largely to the fact that 30% of meals tax revenues would be expected to come from visitors to Fairfax County.”

LOL, give it up.

As an engaged citizen of Fairfax County who wants to see its government adopt smart policies, I am happy to engage in public discussion on matters such as a meals tax where I have something useful to contribute. I am sure that opponents of a meals tax, who really don’t have a good argument against raising revenues in a manner that costs Fairfax County residents less than it would cost them to raise the same revenues through real estate taxes, would be happy for me to shut up with all the facts and logic. But I don’t want to disengage simply because some people, perhaps driven by ideology rather than by any sort of objective analysis, don’t want to hear why a meals tax in Fairfax County makes a lot sense. I am proud to show my support for improving our local government tax base through diversification of revenues which would increase the expected growth in the tax base (food away from home expenditures in Northern Virginia grow about a percentage point higher than real estate assessments), would increase the expected stability of tax revenues (growth in food away from home expenditures in Northern Virginia are poorly correlated with growth in real estate assessments), and that would cost Fairfax County residents less (about 50% for lower-income households and about 25% for higher-income households) than real estate taxes in order to raise equivalent revenues.

I, for one, appreciate your informative input in this thread and I agree with you about diversifying the county's revenue streams through a meal tax.

A lot of the comments in this thread are reflexively rejecting this proposal that would actually save them money in the long run because of concerns about cutting bloat in the school system. There is no reason these two methods should be mutually exclusive. In fact, there are almost certainly lots of areas in which FCPS could save money, starting with administrative bloat at Gatehouse, and a comprehensive 360 audit would help identify areas that are ripe for cuts and this is independent of a meals tax.

As the commercial property tax money dries up, the county is also going to have to take a hard look at its residential real estate tax policy. The population as a whole is aging rapidly, and the exemptions given to low-income seniors who might expect to retire at 62 and survive on SS and little else for 25+ years while having their RE tax subsidized just so they can "age in place" living alone in a 3 or 4-br house may not be sustainable. Incentivizing people to free up that space would also open up starter housing for young families, given the housing shortage. There is no sense in talking about zoning reform or middle income housing if the rates keep going up and the people who actually have to pay the taxes can't afford them.

How do Airbnb and the like affect taxes and creek g up homes for younger families?

Fairfax has banned Airbnbs in the county. Some people cheat and list properties through the India and UK sites but that's only about 100 properties total. Not exactly a major impact on availability.

[jvmorgan]

Anonymous wrote:I too am paying more now for the house I bought back in 2014 due to property taxes and I also refinanced to a great rate during the interest rate dip. My homeowners insurance has stayed pretty consistent over all those years, but my property taxes have increased 50% since 2014.

50% since 2014 isn’t too bad. That’s an annual increase of about 4.1%. Faster than inflation (about 32% since 2014), but definitely not the 10% per year at least one poster claimed.

[Anonymous]

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter to the county whether the vote is no on a meals tax. The money will come from somewhere.

The only difference is whether you pay 30% more for the portion that would have come from a meals tax if you elect to just stick with the real estate tax, instead of having county visitors pay for it.

[jvmorgan]

Anonymous wrote:Members of the Fairfax County Board Of Supervisors are part-time employees. They voted themselves a 30% pay increase for supervisors, and 40% for the chair. This increases supervisors’ annual salaries to $123,283, and the board chair’s pay to $138,283. You think they are going to do the right thing to reduce property taxes if we vote to allow a meals tax?

The argument that some body of decision-makers had the audacity to decide to increase their salaries (in the case of the Fairfax Board of Supervisors, for jobs that are part-time on paper, but full-time in practice) has always struck me as an irrelevant cheap shot in discussions like these. It was one of the issues raised by meals tax opponents in Prince William County, even though they still make less than $50k per year for their service.

Deciding how much to pay for their roles is part of the job of elected leaders. Attacking elected leaders for actually making that decision can be rhetorically effective, but it is irrelevant to most taxing and spending decisions. And it can also lead to elected positions lagging so far behind relative to prevailing salaries for other jobs of similar or even lesser complexity and challenge that the most qualified people don’t even give elected offices a second thought.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jvmorgan wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
“A meals tax would save Fairfax County residents money compared with raising the same revenues through real estate taxes, thanks largely to the fact that 30% of meals tax revenues would be expected to come from visitors to Fairfax County.”

LOL, give it up.

As an engaged citizen of Fairfax County who wants to see its government adopt smart policies, I am happy to engage in public discussion on matters such as a meals tax where I have something useful to contribute. I am sure that opponents of a meals tax, who really don’t have a good argument against raising revenues in a manner that costs Fairfax County residents less than it would cost them to raise the same revenues through real estate taxes, would be happy for me to shut up with all the facts and logic. But I don’t want to disengage simply because some people, perhaps driven by ideology rather than by any sort of objective analysis, don’t want to hear why a meals tax in Fairfax County makes a lot sense. I am proud to show my support for improving our local government tax base through diversification of revenues which would increase the expected growth in the tax base (food away from home expenditures in Northern Virginia grow about a percentage point higher than real estate assessments), would increase the expected stability of tax revenues (growth in food away from home expenditures in Northern Virginia are poorly correlated with growth in real estate assessments), and that would cost Fairfax County residents less (about 50% for lower-income households and about 25% for higher-income households) than real estate taxes in order to raise equivalent revenues.

I, for one, appreciate your informative input in this thread and I agree with you about diversifying the county's revenue streams through a meal tax.

A lot of the comments in this thread are reflexively rejecting this proposal that would actually save them money in the long run because of concerns about cutting bloat in the school system. There is no reason these two methods should be mutually exclusive. In fact, there are almost certainly lots of areas in which FCPS could save money, starting with administrative bloat at Gatehouse, and a comprehensive 360 audit would help identify areas that are ripe for cuts and this is independent of a meals tax.

As the commercial property tax money dries up, the county is also going to have to take a hard look at its residential real estate tax policy. The population as a whole is aging rapidly, and the exemptions given to low-income seniors who might expect to retire at 62 and survive on SS and little else for 25+ years while having their RE tax subsidized just so they can "age in place" living alone in a 3 or 4-br house may not be sustainable. Incentivizing people to free up that space would also open up starter housing for young families, given the housing shortage. There is no sense in talking about zoning reform or middle income housing if the rates keep going up and the people who actually have to pay the taxes can't afford them.

How do Airbnb and the like affect taxes and creek g up homes for younger families?

Fairfax has banned Airbnbs in the county. Some people cheat and list properties through the India and UK sites but that's only about 100 properties total. Not exactly a major impact on availability.

Is that true? All I can find are references to a 2018 ordinance that was passed allowing Airbnb type rentals.

[Anonymous]

jvmorgan wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I too am paying more now for the house I bought back in 2014 due to property taxes and I also refinanced to a great rate during the interest rate dip. My homeowners insurance has stayed pretty consistent over all those years, but my property taxes have increased 50% since 2014.

50% since 2014 isn’t too bad. That’s an annual increase of about 4.1%. Faster than inflation (about 32% since 2014), but definitely not the 10% per year at least one poster claimed.

I am the 10% poster. I never said it was 10% each year. They are raising my taxes 10% this year and have gone up 50% overall since I bought my house at the end of 2014. You must be in a different salary range to be able to say that a 50% tax increase is not that bad.

[jvmorgan]

Anonymous wrote:
“Fairfax has banned Airbnbs in the county. Some people cheat and list properties through the India and UK sites but that's only about 100 properties total. Not exactly a major impact on availability.”

Is that true? All I can find are references to a 2018 ordinance that was passed allowing Airbnb type rentals.

Not an area I’ve had any involvement in other than maybe responding to a survey. But I think you’re right. Airbnb and other short-term rentals are not outright banned in Fairfax County, but there are regulations in place (e.g., 60 days per year and 6 adults at a time max) (https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/planning-development/zoning/short-term-property-rentals/faqs).