Anyone else thinks the whole college admission process is a total farse?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep. 100%

The amount of lying and marketing oneself and trying to show you have some trauma or special adversity or belong to some outlier group so you can curry favor to Admin officers. It's gross.

And the fake non-profits and the no standards at times with overinflated gpas and no test results.

It's really gotten so out of hand given the sheer volume of applicants universities now face.

I swear it should be changed to this:

Everyone that meets certain requirements all get put in the hat and then they pull out admits like a lottery. At some point it's just too much.

All of these actions are based on heresy, mostly from parents who are just as clueless as the next person. I've never heard an AO say they want trauma or non-profits. Stop believing random strangers for something this important.

Not true. The heart-string stories. A friend was an AO at a top state university and the discussions were often said of very qualified kids from MC/UMC/!% that they never had to experience adversity. They were essentially penalized for coming from functional, normal backgrounds and being neurotypical 'normal' , but exceptional kids.

Most of the people who work in AO as a whole are not highly intelligent…

You've never met one, let alone a cross section enough to make such a claim. But you go ahead and insult them if it makes you feel better. Won't turn back the clock and get you admitted. Go ahead and say they are ugly and their moms dress them badly also. Won't matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They dont read 50k applications. They have criteria based on which they eliminate 3/4.

Simply not true. At many of the most prestigious colleges and universities, they readily admit about 2/3 or applicants are academically qualified. And the apps do get read.

Some review notes on meetings with top school admissions:
"80% of applicants are considered academically qualified to attend (so about 25K of the 37K applications.
99% are in the top ten % of their high school class.

THE PROCESS
There is a regional reader (in this case she covered three states plus NYC) who does initial processing of about 100 to 120 applications per week. (Other colleges the reader may be reviewing hundreds per day!)
She sends most to a 2nd reader, unless the student is unusually weak; examples are simple one sentence answers to questions, no specific U interest. (But this didn't seem to weed out a huge percentage)
After 2nd reader, returns to the regional reader.
Then goes to committee, which usually consists of 5 to 12 people, including (usually) the dean of admisions.
Each reader gives about a 30 second summary of the student.
The final say is the dean; it's not a democracy!"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my home country, you first select the schools you want to go to.

Then each school was a testing day. You take the test/s.

You are eligible to attend the schools you passed tests for.
If you didn't pass, no second chances to that particular school.

Wonder if that method will work here?

People will whine about discrimination. It would not work here.

As a URM, who attended schools in the UK, I prefer their college admission process. The college admission process in the United States is a complete crap show on epic proportions. It's basically a popularity contest that is based on whether the admission counselor likes you or not. I am so glad that I attended school in a country where common sense, merit, and your academic ability matters. I would have probably committed suicide if I had to endure the US version of college admission.

My kid is only applying to international universities next year. He likes that the criteria for most international engineering schools is based on math proficiency and offer direct admission as suppose to here where prospective engineering students have to waste time in low level courses fighting over limited spots. Don't tell me that a kid who takes Multivariable Equations as a junior and one who scored 5s on every AP exam have to waste their time sitting in some USA university.

My advice to parents who value merit is to have their children apply to international schools. It helps if your child can speak the language as well. My child can fluently speak 4 languages too.

We're are not even entertaining universities in this country.

Well, good luck! The fewer kids that participate in the rat race here the better.

[Anonymous]

If you want to believe it's a farce, go right ahead. I think sitting in disappointment would be much easier and more prudent. Especially because such a negative view means life is a farce, which is sooo depressing.

Finally, the admissions cycle isn't over yet...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm still waiting for someone who is willing for their white son to live the rest of his life as a Black man just so that he can get that amazing bump in admissions.

It's a good point, but it hardly seems fair that the only racial group underrepresented at Harvard is whites. That just seems like deliberate racial discrimination, and I'm sure you're not in favor of that or are you?

I am. Take a seat, whitey!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Despite this thread seeming a little whiny, I think it is fair for middle-class parents who don't have legacy status or generational wealth to feel like the system doesn't work for them. Their kids may be second or third generation Americans, just one generation removed from poverty. Perhaps they'll be 2nd gen college students. Maybe a minority, but not the under-represented kind. Family makes too much for lots of aid, but not enough to pay for private or out-of-state flagships. They have no hooks -- just families working really hard to try to move up the ladder. Parents did their best to provide stability and their kids sacrificed to excel in and out of the classroom. Parents hope that instead of a commuter college like the one they attended, their kids can have a richer college experience. But then their kid is rejected from UMCP and they didn't get aid from the SLAC on their list. Yes, those kids will be fine, but it is okay to have wanted something a little more. Especially since the marketing brochures (and most of culture up until a few years ago) made it seem possible. You can insult these parents by calling them strivers, but it reads a bit like you're telling them to know their station. Only Buffy and Bif get to go to the top schools, just like Granddaddy!

Colleges are businesses, yes. But many of them are like Gucci and other exclusive luxury brands. They are not meritocracies and they don't focus on social mobility. We need to help kids see them for what they are. Rejecting the bulk of the qualified middle class is how they build their brands.

I don't think this is correct. This is another falsehood parents tell themselves to make themselves feel better. The number of rich, unqualified kids getting into elite schools is small. There are then some legacies, but statistics show that they have equally strong credentials. (Do you really think that the dumb kid of a Harvard grad is getting in? Not unless they are famous.) So the few rich kids of actors or other potential donors make it in, and some unqualified POC kids make it in, but that doesn't make colleges "not meritocracies."

What does make it less of a meritocracy is the hyperfocus on social mobility. But it is from low income groups and it only lasts for one generation. Ask all of us who were first-gen whether our legacy kids got into top schools... But also, middle class people who can't pay their way shouldn't really expect the luxury college on someone else's dime, otherwise you can't complain about the kids of those rich donors.

[Anonymous]

Yes, it is. Complete. Especially if no hooks.

However, I did prescribe to my kids getting straight As, acing SAT/PSAT/APs, taking lots of APs and post APs, foreign language AP, internships, published work, having deep interests in ECs, scholastic competitions and placements, honor societies etc. All of this not to get into college but as a part of being educated and capable enough to make it in college and in a career.

After accomplishing that, we knew top college was a lottery and probably would not happen and we did not want to spin our wheels. Kids applied to 7 colleges in EA/ED round. 3 rejections, 4 acceptances.

That was all. We also had some colleges for the RD round and one that had a deadline for May. But, once you know that it is a farce, you don't really care beyond getting to your own career goals. I am a big proponent of going to community college as a means to get a better GPA, a more personalized education, more facetime, better attention, less pressure cooker environment, an alternate route to flagship university and to save a boatload of money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my home country, you first select the schools you want to go to.

Then each school was a testing day. You take the test/s.

You are eligible to attend the schools you passed tests for.
If you didn't pass, no second chances to that particular school.

Wonder if that method will work here?

People will whine about discrimination. It would not work here.

As a URM, who attended schools in the UK, I prefer their college admission process. The college admission process in the United States is a complete crap show on epic proportions. It's basically a popularity contest that is based on whether the admission counselor likes you or not. I am so glad that I attended school in a country where common sense, merit, and your academic ability matters. I would have probably committed suicide if I had to endure the US version of college admission.

My kid is only applying to international universities next year. He likes that the criteria for most international engineering schools is based on math proficiency and offer direct admission as suppose to here where prospective engineering students have to waste time in low level courses fighting over limited spots. Don't tell me that a kid who takes Multivariable Equations as a junior and one who scored 5s on every AP exam have to waste their time sitting in some USA university.

My advice to parents who value merit is to have their children apply to international schools. It helps if your child can speak the language as well. My child can fluently speak 4 languages too.

We're are not even entertaining universities in this country.

Well, good luck! The fewer kids that participate in the rat race here the better.

Agree! All of the “merit and stats only” folks should apply where test scores are the only criteria.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you want to believe it's a farce, go right ahead. I think sitting in disappointment would be much easier and more prudent. Especially because such a negative view means life is a farce, which is sooo depressing.

Finally, the admissions cycle isn't over yet...

The poster would not think it was a farce (or even a “farse “) if their kid had gotten into the ED, which clearly they did not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my home country, you first select the schools you want to go to.

Then each school was a testing day. You take the test/s.

You are eligible to attend the schools you passed tests for.
If you didn't pass, no second chances to that particular school.

Wonder if that method will work here?

People will whine about discrimination. It would not work here.

As a URM, who attended schools in the UK, I prefer their college admission process. The college admission process in the United States is a complete crap show on epic proportions. It's basically a popularity contest that is based on whether the admission counselor likes you or not. I am so glad that I attended school in a country where common sense, merit, and your academic ability matters. I would have probably committed suicide if I had to endure the US version of college admission.

My kid is only applying to international universities next year. He likes that the criteria for most international engineering schools is based on math proficiency and offer direct admission as suppose to here where prospective engineering students have to waste time in low level courses fighting over limited spots. Don't tell me that a kid who takes Multivariable Equations as a junior and one who scored 5s on every AP exam have to waste their time sitting in some USA university.

My advice to parents who value merit is to have their children apply to international schools. It helps if your child can speak the language as well. My child can fluently speak 4 languages too.

We're are not even entertaining universities in this country.

Well, good luck! The fewer kids that participate in the rat race here the better.

Agree! All of the “merit and stats only” folks should apply where test scores are the only criteria.

Plenty of those already. Namely Towson, Salisbury, Radford and ODU.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In my home country, you first select the schools you want to go to.

Then each school was a testing day. You take the test/s.

You are eligible to attend the schools you passed tests for.
If you didn't pass, no second chances to that particular school.

Wonder if that method will work here?

Interesting idea. How would that work logistically? Kids from all over the country would travel or proctored off site exams?

I am not a believer in entrance based solely on exams but I do like the idea that kids can’t superscore 20 scores to get to a perfect score (I literally read a post on Reddit in which the kid had taken the SAT 23 times and was at a 1580 or something and his parents wanted him to take it again to try for 1600).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my home country, you first select the schools you want to go to.

Then each school was a testing day. You take the test/s.

You are eligible to attend the schools you passed tests for.
If you didn't pass, no second chances to that particular school.

Wonder if that method will work here?

People will whine about discrimination. It would not work here.

As a URM, who attended schools in the UK, I prefer their college admission process. The college admission process in the United States is a complete crap show on epic proportions. It's basically a popularity contest that is based on whether the admission counselor likes you or not. I am so glad that I attended school in a country where common sense, merit, and your academic ability matters. I would have probably committed suicide if I had to endure the US version of college admission.

My kid is only applying to international universities next year. He likes that the criteria for most international engineering schools is based on math proficiency and offer direct admission as suppose to here where prospective engineering students have to waste time in low level courses fighting over limited spots. Don't tell me that a kid who takes Multivariable Equations as a junior and one who scored 5s on every AP exam have to waste their time sitting in some USA university.

My advice to parents who value merit is to have their children apply to international schools. It helps if your child can speak the language as well. My child can fluently speak 4 languages too.

We're are not even entertaining universities in this country.

Well, good luck! The fewer kids that participate in the rat race here the better.

Agree! All of the “merit and stats only” folks should apply where test scores are the only criteria.

Plenty of those already. Namely Towson, Salisbury, Radford and ODU.

Those aren't "merit and stats only" schools. No such schools even exist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They dont read 50k applications. They have criteria based on which they eliminate 3/4.

Simply not true. At many of the most prestigious colleges and universities, they readily admit about 2/3 or applicants are academically qualified. And the apps do get read.

Some review notes on meetings with top school admissions:
"80% of applicants are considered academically qualified to attend (so about 25K of the 37K applications.
99% are in the top ten % of their high school class.

THE PROCESS
There is a regional reader (in this case she covered three states plus NYC) who does initial processing of about 100 to 120 applications per week. (Other colleges the reader may be reviewing hundreds per day!)
She sends most to a 2nd reader, unless the student is unusually weak; examples are simple one sentence answers to questions, no specific U interest. (But this didn't seem to weed out a huge percentage)
After 2nd reader, returns to the regional reader.
Then goes to committee, which usually consists of 5 to 12 people, including (usually) the dean of admisions.
Each reader gives about a 30 second summary of the student.
The final say is the dean; it's not a democracy!"

Sorry, your math does not work!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The Atlantic article from the last admission cycle covering exactly this.

The College-Admissions Process Is Completely Broken

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/change-college-acceptance-application-process/627581/

Yes but the author of this piece is making precisely the opposite point of the OP. The Atlantic article is all about how people with less means get screwed by the admissions process because so many prestige-crazed parents like the OP will do anything to give their kid an edge for Princeton.

The process is unfair, but not to the UMC kids like the OP's.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure “farce” is the word I would choose, but certainly there is a lot more complexities involved and questions on how things are viewed by AOs. I only have a sophomore but from what I gather from these boards and others:

- rigorous course load taking as many AP as possible (but this is evaluated in the context of what the school offers and the actual AP score matters less than the course)
- good grades (but if student can get a B in an AP that is better than an A in a regular course)
- good letters of recommendation
- good test courses are helpful to show even if school os TO (and expected if student is UMC)
- extracurriculars that demonstrate leadership and “passion”. LT/multi year activities are best
- apply with a less popular major (CS and engineering most in demand currently)
- “passion project” of raising $$ for a cause, publishing a book (can be self published haha), independent research project (where paper at end can be self published on a student website) is needed for T20/30s
- essays that tell a student’s “story” and connects their interests, with the extracurriculars they did, with their choice of intended major.

Then the “lottery” elements: AO also look at race/ethnicity and normally want to stay within same percents as prior years (same with gender and geographic diversity) Legacy and any kids of that university’s professors, anyone Dean of Admissions indicates is special, enough full pay to cover scholarships/merit.

So I wouldn’t use the word “farce” but maybe the word “ridiculous”

I have great kids, decently smart but not robots, involved in activities but coming out of COVID and less social interaction, I’m happy they are involved again so not pushing leadership (nor are they). Really very puzzled where they will wind up and if a private counselor / consultant to help them “find their passion” is worth it. Honestly, IMO high schoolers should not find their passion. That’s what’s college and early adulthood is for. Heck, I’m 50 and in the midst of a career switch for which I have only found my passion. But I would not have traded my prior career bc that taught me a lot too.

But, I do want them to attend a college with an amazing and well connected career services office.

Excellent description of how to be admitted to a T10 school five years ago.

It's also a great summary of how to be admitted to a public flagship (at various levels) today.

However, students and parents aiming for a T10 school now need to begin thinking more creatively.

For the "academic spike" applicant, don't ask "will lack of rigor in a foreign language hurt me?" Ask, "can I take four college courses at an Ivy during high school and get As in all of them while graduating from high school a year early?"

For the "inspirational story" applicant, don't ask "can I scale my passion-project nonprofit internationally before junior fall?" Ask, "can I move back to my grandparents' war-torn village in Africa and enroll in the local school there before applying to Stanford?" or "can I get myself moved into foster care and commit some petty crimes that will send me to a juvenile detention center early enough so that I have time to turn my life around by the summer before senior year?"

For the URM applicant, don't ask "should my application reflect that my great-great-grandmother was born in Mexico?" Ask, "how willing am I to lie as blatantly as half the URM students at Brown and just say I myself was born in an armadillo-infested shack outside of Ciudad Juarez?" (even though you grew up in Great Falls).

We get hung up on the idea of extracurriculars that "show" leadership, but it's more important to think about how even someone whose parents both got doctorates from the top university in China and are famous scientists can still qualify as "first-gen."

It is a farce. The farce that we make it.

+ agree