Therapeutic Wilderness Schools - Any Insights?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child was kicked out of PHP due to being too aggressive. He was moved to inpatient where he was stabilized with different medications and then released. The PHP program would not take him back. So in the end he was not able to do the work to get better.

Aggression and elopement history were the reasons that so many forms of treatment were not available to my child including most RTC programs.

So why would wilderness therapy be appropriate for that kind of severe behavior? What kind of practices do they have to manage them? What's the argument for a kid with such severe behaviors going to a LESS regulated, less professionally trained program ... that takes place in the wilderness away from medical care and oversight?

I can answer this and the answer sucks. Non hospital inpatient programs routinely refuse to accept kids who they deem too difficult and hospital inpatient programs will only keep kids long enough to patch them up. So if you have a kid who is released from inpatient and recommended to need further treatment literally ALL other programs can refuse to accept. So the kid goes without any care until they attempt suicide again. And repeat…. Wilderness programs will accept kids that other programs will not accept. The land of wilderness programs is populated by desperate families with no options. If there were better regulated insurance covered programs that would accept these kids, then parents would not be looking at wilderness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child was kicked out of PHP due to being too aggressive. He was moved to inpatient where he was stabilized with different medications and then released. The PHP program would not take him back. So in the end he was not able to do the work to get better.

Aggression and elopement history were the reasons that so many forms of treatment were not available to my child including most RTC programs.

So why would wilderness therapy be appropriate for that kind of severe behavior? What kind of practices do they have to manage them? What's the argument for a kid with such severe behaviors going to a LESS regulated, less professionally trained program ... that takes place in the wilderness away from medical care and oversight?

I can answer this and the answer sucks. Non hospital inpatient programs routinely refuse to accept kids who they deem too difficult and hospital inpatient programs will only keep kids long enough to patch them up. So if you have a kid who is released from inpatient and recommended to need further treatment literally ALL other programs can refuse to accept. So the kid goes without any care until they attempt suicide again. And repeat…. Wilderness programs will accept kids that other programs will not accept. The land of wilderness programs is populated by desperate families with no options. If there were better regulated insurance covered programs that would accept these kids, then parents would not be looking at wilderness.

that explains why they exist but certainly does not reassure me about their quality! a for-profit industry that targets parents who feel they have no other options, often with money to pay (like Paris Hilton’s family). and fwiw, in my family, wilderness therapy was not some kind of last resort after everything else. my parents went straight to it for my 13 yr old brother with friends they disapproved of and some alcohol issues - there was no prior therapy, treatment, nothing. Just straight to Montana.

[Anonymous]

that explains why they exist but certainly does not reassure me about their quality! a for-profit industry that targets parents who feel they have no other options, often with money to pay (like Paris Hilton’s family). and fwiw, in my family, wilderness therapy was not some kind of last resort after everything else. my parents went straight to it for my 13 yr old brother with friends they disapproved of and some alcohol issues - there was no prior therapy, treatment, nothing. Just straight to Montana.

You can’t lump all programs together. And even accredited programs sometimes have problems. Check out the nursing home industry which, next to the nuclear industry, is the most regulated industry in the country and listen to all of the complaints - including actual abuse. And facilities for juvenile delinquents and schools, which do background checks and are highly regulated, have physical and sexual abuse issues perpetrated by teachers and other staff.

It’s not ok. It just an fact of life. You just have to do your due diligence as a parent, which would be much easier if there were more resources. Because while your parents may have jumped directly to wilderness, most of the rest of us have exhausted all options before turning to something so extreme.

[Anonymous]

bad treatment is worse than no trearment. obviously. the fact that you keep on engaging in this logical fallacy makes me doubt your truthfulness, maybe to yourself as well. clearly you believe that wilderness therapy actually worked for your particular child. if so, name the program, how they provide therepeutic and medicsl services, how long your child was there, and what your child is doing now. what I am saying is that the industry is full of abuse and bad actors. that doesn’t preclude there being good residential programs that use outdoor activities therepeutically in an appropriate way. so explain it, or not. but you can’t rebut the lengthy and horrific documented history of wilderness “therapy” just by saying “we had no other choice!!!

Wow I can't believe how much this discussion was run off the rails by the anti-wilderness brigade astroturfing the discussion. Comments like these have nothing substantial to add.

Dismissing other's real-life experiences and saying over and over again that wilderness programs aren't therapeutic doesn't make it so. You'll notice that posters who've commented on their positive experiences with these places have given nuanced opinions of these places, acknowledged they're not for everyone, acknowledged that finding a good program took a lot of work and research - but have noted that intensive therapy, psychiatry, and doctors when needed were all part of the experience.

Sea ottering and demanding posters entertain your bad-faith arguments and name therapeutic programs so you can dismiss them outright isn't constructive or a good use of anyone's time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sea ottering and demanding posters entertain your bad-faith arguments and name therapeutic programs so you can dismiss them outright isn't constructive or a good use of anyone's time.

LOL, I meant sealioning, I'm getting my animals confused.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:bad treatment is worse than no trearment. obviously. the fact that you keep on engaging in this logical fallacy makes me doubt your truthfulness, maybe to yourself as well. clearly you believe that wilderness therapy actually worked for your particular child. if so, name the program, how they provide therepeutic and medicsl services, how long your child was there, and what your child is doing now. what I am saying is that the industry is full of abuse and bad actors. that doesn’t preclude there being good residential programs that use outdoor activities therepeutically in an appropriate way. so explain it, or not. but you can’t rebut the lengthy and horrific documented history of wilderness “therapy” just by saying “we had no other choice!!!

Wow I can't believe how much this discussion was run off the rails by the anti-wilderness brigade astroturfing the discussion. Comments like these have nothing substantial to add.

Dismissing other's real-life experiences and saying over and over again that wilderness programs aren't therapeutic doesn't make it so. You'll notice that posters who've commented on their positive experiences with these places have given nuanced opinions of these places, acknowledged they're not for everyone, acknowledged that finding a good program took a lot of work and research - but have noted that intensive therapy, psychiatry, and doctors when needed were all part of the experience.

Sea ottering and demanding posters entertain your bad-faith arguments and name therapeutic programs so you can dismiss them outright isn't constructive or a good use of anyone's time.

you shouldn’t be so threatened by people asking you to name these wilderness programs with all that intensive and appropriate therapy and access to medical care. generally people exchange specific information like that here.

[Anonymous]

Outback Therapeutic Wilderness was wonderful. Amazing staff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[url]

Anonymous wrote:9:58,
Do you mind sharing the name of the wilderness program you used?

Think you're asking me? Trails Carolina.

Do you mean this Trails Carolina? The one that former staff call "beyond cruel" and which is being sued for the rape of a student by a staff member?

The one that was found last year by NC regulators to have failed to administer medication and not let students call their parents?

https://www.wbtv.com/2021/08/30/new-inspection-finds-more-problems-wilderness-therapy-camp-kids-teens/

https://www.wbtv.com/2021/05/24/its-beyond-cruel-inside-nc-wilderness-therapy-program-teens/

Yeah, no.

These Wilderness camps are nightmares, and what's most relevant is that there is NO evidence they actually help. Send your kid there, and your sentencing them to a lifetime of institutionaliziation and PTSD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:bad treatment is worse than no trearment. obviously. the fact that you keep on engaging in this logical fallacy makes me doubt your truthfulness, maybe to yourself as well. clearly you believe that wilderness therapy actually worked for your particular child. if so, name the program, how they provide therepeutic and medicsl services, how long your child was there, and what your child is doing now. what I am saying is that the industry is full of abuse and bad actors. that doesn’t preclude there being good residential programs that use outdoor activities therepeutically in an appropriate way. so explain it, or not. but you can’t rebut the lengthy and horrific documented history of wilderness “therapy” just by saying “we had no other choice!!!

Wow I can't believe how much this discussion was run off the rails by the anti-wilderness brigade astroturfing the discussion. Comments like these have nothing substantial to add.

Dismissing other's real-life experiences and saying over and over again that wilderness programs aren't therapeutic doesn't make it so. You'll notice that posters who've commented on their positive experiences with these places have given nuanced opinions of these places, acknowledged they're not for everyone, acknowledged that finding a good program took a lot of work and research - but have noted that intensive therapy, psychiatry, and doctors when needed were all part of the experience.

Sea ottering and demanding posters entertain your bad-faith arguments and name therapeutic programs so you can dismiss them outright isn't constructive or a good use of anyone's time.

You might want too read this article about how there is scant evidence (and what is there is funded by these programs) on whether Wilderness even works at all.

https://www.hcn.org/articles/wilderness-do-wilderness-therapy-programs-really-work


“It’s hard to make a case for spending a lot of money on a program for which there is no strong evidence,” says John Weisz, a professor of psychology at Harvard University who specializes in mental health interventions for children and adolescents. “From the state of the evidence that I’ve seen, we really don’t know whether wilderness therapy has beneficial effects or not,” he added.

CAVEAT EMPTOR.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why would I spend 2 seconds reading something Paris Hilton wrote. She who has had every privilege in life. Never worked a day in her life and best know for a homemade sex video.

Because she was sent to several of these RTCs, suffered abuse, and is now telling her story --in front of lawmakers who take her seriously.

Because that has inspired other survivors of abuse at RTCs to come forward and tell their stories.

Because the abuse of vulnerable teens is horrific and should be stopped. Because these RTCs need to be regulated.

https://www.breakingcodesilence.org

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[url]

Anonymous wrote:9:58,
Do you mind sharing the name of the wilderness program you used?

Think you're asking me? Trails Carolina.

Do you mean this Trails Carolina? The one that former staff call "beyond cruel" and which is being sued for the rape of a student by a staff member?

The one that was found last year by NC regulators to have failed to administer medication and not let students call their parents?

https://www.wbtv.com/2021/08/30/new-inspection-finds-more-problems-wilderness-therapy-camp-kids-teens/

https://www.wbtv.com/2021/05/24/its-beyond-cruel-inside-nc-wilderness-therapy-program-teens/

Yeah, no.

These Wilderness camps are nightmares, and what's most relevant is that there is NO evidence they actually help. Send your kid there, and your sentencing them to a lifetime of institutionaliziation and PTSD.

Didn’t use this program but i can unequivocally say that therapeutic wilderness programs saved my sons life.

[Anonymous]

My dd was in an FCPS CSS program and when a child was having a meltdown, a staff member tried to restrain him and broke his leg.

FCPS was in serious legal trouble for routinely locking kids in closets and hiding the fact that it was happening.

How can anyone trust FCPS with their child after incidents like those? Or any public school, for that matter?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:bad treatment is worse than no trearment. obviously. the fact that you keep on engaging in this logical fallacy makes me doubt your truthfulness, maybe to yourself as well. clearly you believe that wilderness therapy actually worked for your particular child. if so, name the program, how they provide therepeutic and medicsl services, how long your child was there, and what your child is doing now. what I am saying is that the industry is full of abuse and bad actors. that doesn’t preclude there being good residential programs that use outdoor activities therepeutically in an appropriate way. so explain it, or not. but you can’t rebut the lengthy and horrific documented history of wilderness “therapy” just by saying “we had no other choice!!!

Wow I can't believe how much this discussion was run off the rails by the anti-wilderness brigade astroturfing the discussion. Comments like these have nothing substantial to add.

Dismissing other's real-life experiences and saying over and over again that wilderness programs aren't therapeutic doesn't make it so. You'll notice that posters who've commented on their positive experiences with these places have given nuanced opinions of these places, acknowledged they're not for everyone, acknowledged that finding a good program took a lot of work and research - but have noted that intensive therapy, psychiatry, and doctors when needed were all part of the experience.

Sea ottering and demanding posters entertain your bad-faith arguments and name therapeutic programs so you can dismiss them outright isn't constructive or a good use of anyone's time.

You might want too read this article about how there is scant evidence (and what is there is funded by these programs) on whether Wilderness even works at all.

https://www.hcn.org/articles/wilderness-do-wilderness-therapy-programs-really-work


“It’s hard to make a case for spending a lot of money on a program for which there is no strong evidence,” says John Weisz, a professor of psychology at Harvard University who specializes in mental health interventions for children and adolescents. “From the state of the evidence that I’ve seen, we really don’t know whether wilderness therapy has beneficial effects or not,” he added.

CAVEAT EMPTOR.

The problem with academics like this is they don't understand the real world situations parents of mentally ill children find themselves in. THERE IS NO HELP. Even somewhere like the DC area, there is no help for mentally ill kids who are resistant to treatment. My friend's dd was in and out of the ER and short term inpatient stays, then sat at home on a waitlist for a PHP for four months. She was admitted, stayed a few hours, then walked out of the PHP and they weren't allowed to legally stop her. She was missing for two days. Then the PHP wouldn't take her back, nor would any other local PHP, because one of their requirements is that the child is willing to be treated. But the child wasn't in immediate danger, so she couldn't go back into the hospital.

so, Paris Hilton fan, this is your kid. Your move. Tell me about all the local evidence-based therapeutic resources you would find for her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My dd was in an FCPS CSS program and when a child was having a meltdown, a staff member tried to restrain him and broke his leg.

FCPS was in serious legal trouble for routinely locking kids in closets and hiding the fact that it was happening.

How can anyone trust FCPS with their child after incidents like those? Or any public school, for that matter?

I think you are trying to be tongue in cheek, but I will respond in earnest.

FCPS is highly regulated. When something horrible is exposed, there are consequences.

RTCs have virtually no state regulation and absolutely zero Federal regulation.

There are more than 200k kids sent to these places each year.

They are profit machines for corporate America, not mental health facilities. Until there is substantial oversight, one should proceed with extreme caution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:bad treatment is worse than no trearment. obviously. the fact that you keep on engaging in this logical fallacy makes me doubt your truthfulness, maybe to yourself as well. clearly you believe that wilderness therapy actually worked for your particular child. if so, name the program, how they provide therepeutic and medicsl services, how long your child was there, and what your child is doing now. what I am saying is that the industry is full of abuse and bad actors. that doesn’t preclude there being good residential programs that use outdoor activities therepeutically in an appropriate way. so explain it, or not. but you can’t rebut the lengthy and horrific documented history of wilderness “therapy” just by saying “we had no other choice!!!

Wow I can't believe how much this discussion was run off the rails by the anti-wilderness brigade astroturfing the discussion. Comments like these have nothing substantial to add.

Dismissing other's real-life experiences and saying over and over again that wilderness programs aren't therapeutic doesn't make it so. You'll notice that posters who've commented on their positive experiences with these places have given nuanced opinions of these places, acknowledged they're not for everyone, acknowledged that finding a good program took a lot of work and research - but have noted that intensive therapy, psychiatry, and doctors when needed were all part of the experience.

Sea ottering and demanding posters entertain your bad-faith arguments and name therapeutic programs so you can dismiss them outright isn't constructive or a good use of anyone's time.

You might want too read this article about how there is scant evidence (and what is there is funded by these programs) on whether Wilderness even works at all.

https://www.hcn.org/articles/wilderness-do-wilderness-therapy-programs-really-work


“It’s hard to make a case for spending a lot of money on a program for which there is no strong evidence,” says John Weisz, a professor of psychology at Harvard University who specializes in mental health interventions for children and adolescents. “From the state of the evidence that I’ve seen, we really don’t know whether wilderness therapy has beneficial effects or not,” he added.

CAVEAT EMPTOR.

The problem with academics like this is they don't understand the real world situations parents of mentally ill children find themselves in. THERE IS NO HELP. Even somewhere like the DC area, there is no help for mentally ill kids who are resistant to treatment. My friend's dd was in and out of the ER and short term inpatient stays, then sat at home on a waitlist for a PHP for four months. She was admitted, stayed a few hours, then walked out of the PHP and they weren't allowed to legally stop her. She was missing for two days. Then the PHP wouldn't take her back, nor would any other local PHP, because one of their requirements is that the child is willing to be treated. But the child wasn't in immediate danger, so she couldn't go back into the hospital.

so, Paris Hilton fan, this is your kid. Your move. Tell me about all the local evidence-based therapeutic resources you would find for her.

This is my kid, too. Which is why I have such a strong opinion about it.

Mental health support sucks, that we can agree on.

I think the future will be in Wraparound Care, which tries to keep and serve the child in the community. I see the changes already. A few years ago there was only one intense DBT program in this area for kids, and now there are several.

https://www.wraparoundmd.org/care_coordination.asp