Middle class families - Are you willing to take on a ton of debt for a top college?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At Columbia you're going to become friends with peers who will become very successful. At UVA you're going to meet a bunch of future SAHM, nurses, teachers, salesman, lawyers. Different levels.

This. I would not underestimate the power of the cohort. At Columbia, you will be surrounded by top students from all over the US and the world. At UVa, by definition, you will be surrounded by a majority of VA students - some high stats, some less so. My ds, who is at another top 10 ivy, says that he is surrounded by over achievers. I thinks he gets as much benefit from them as he does from the academics and overall environment at his ivy.

why is this necessary? does every single student in the 50 miles radius of your son must be exceptional for him to reach his potential?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the case of UVa versus Columbia, I'd definitely pick UVa. It is just as good a school. Why pay more for the same quality?

Same quality? Lol... right...

+1

It's absolutely not the same quality. While not Harvard, Columbia will still open a ton of doors esp. in the art, publishing, and journalism industries in NYC which are super competitive.

You can't get those kinds of connections at uva. UVA is so provincial compared to going to school in NYC where you'd have the opportunity to do unpaid internships basically anywhere in the city as long as you can pay travel costs.

If the family has to take loans to pay for the school, the kid is not going to be able to take unpaid internships. Art, publishing and journalism aren't good fields for someone with nearly $300k in student loan debt from undergrad. [/quote

Yep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At Columbia you're going to become friends with peers who will become very successful. At UVA you're going to meet a bunch of future SAHM, nurses, teachers, salesman, lawyers. Different levels.

1. I don't believe this. "Very successful" people come from all kinds of schools.

But, even if true..

2. This seems to assume that everyone should want to be the kind of "very successful" to which an Ivy league school supposedly provides some magic gate. I'm sure it is shocking to the "Ivy league or bust" folks but success looks different to different people. I know "very successful" teachers, nurses, sales people etc. They love their work, are very good at it, and can support themselves. To me that is what 'very successful' looks like.

I'm sorry but being a nurse is a tough, thankless, poorly paid job. Its not successful.

Wow. So, by your definition, nurses are "failures"?

Success for you is apparently all about money and status. You can't take it with you. A humble nurse can look back at her (or his) life and know that she did honest work that directly helped countless people. That's something she has over an IB bro or biglaw bigshot.

I didn't say they were failures, I said they were not "successful" and they are not in any sense. Its not a job about success, its about tolerance and fortitude, which they have and its about helping others, endlessly. That is not the definition of "success". The definition of success is according to all dictionaries, inclusive of financial prosperity and material and public gain. I didn't write the dictionary but at least I understand the language I'm using. You're just not well educated enough to know the difference.

Maybe look up the definition before spouting such nonsense.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/success

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/success

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At Columbia you're going to become friends with peers who will become very successful. At UVA you're going to meet a bunch of future SAHM, nurses, teachers, salesman, lawyers. Different levels.

1. I don't believe this. "Very successful" people come from all kinds of schools.

But, even if true..

2. This seems to assume that everyone should want to be the kind of "very successful" to which an Ivy league school supposedly provides some magic gate. I'm sure it is shocking to the "Ivy league or bust" folks but success looks different to different people. I know "very successful" teachers, nurses, sales people etc. They love their work, are very good at it, and can support themselves. To me that is what 'very successful' looks like.

I'm sorry but being a nurse is a tough, thankless, poorly paid job. Its not successful.

Wow. So, by your definition, nurses are "failures"?

Success for you is apparently all about money and status. You can't take it with you. A humble nurse can look back at her (or his) life and know that she did honest work that directly helped countless people. That's something she has over an IB bro or biglaw bigshot.

I didn't say they were failures, I said they were not "successful" and they are not in any sense. Its not a job about success, its about tolerance and fortitude, which they have and its about helping others, endlessly. That is not the definition of "success". The definition of success is according to all dictionaries, inclusive of financial prosperity and material and public gain. I didn't write the dictionary but at least I understand the language I'm using. You're just not well educated enough to know the difference.

When you put your foot in your mouth, just acknowledge it and move on. Trying to dig yourself out via sophomoric tap dancing, and then asserting that we are "not educated enough" to understand your point is just makes it worse for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, I would not pick columbia and the debt. I can't think of any real world benefit other than bragging rights because you think the name sounds more impressive

$280k debt can ruin your life.

It's not $280. You pay college expenses in after-tax dollars. If you are in the 50% tax bracket, you have to make $140 per year to pay $70K. That's $560,000 for four years. More than 60% of our nation's college students are now taking five or six years to graduate (less so with the more prestigious schools, but WaPo did a story on this a year ago - many students have to take time off to work, or can't get the classes they need because they are blocked or have returned from a year abroad and can't finish), so that is $700K to $840,000 per student. We have two in college right now - one will be a five year student. So double, say, the $700K figure for a grand total of $1.4M to educate two kids. Both got into Ivies. Both are at UVA, thank God. And they love it!

And for those who say "you should have saved". We did. Massively. And both students' accounts were halved by the great recession as was our retirement. We are now truly a member of the "sandwich generation" taking care of elderly parents, still reeling from costs of taking care of one parent in assisted living for 8 years, trying to plan for retirement (hah) and putting our young through college. We haven't even gotten to grad school yet (law school is now $88K a year).

And for those who say "merit scholarships", there aren't any at the Ivy level, there aren't any at UVA except for Jefferson and Echols, and we are in the donut hole so get zero out of FAFSA save the $5500 loan that everyone gets.

Note of clarification: Echols is not a merit scholarship. It provides no money for tuition or room/board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At Columbia you're going to become friends with peers who will become very successful. At UVA you're going to meet a bunch of future SAHM, nurses, teachers, salesman, lawyers. Different levels.

That's all well and good but OPs kid won't be hanging out with them; as already mentioned, she'll be busy with work-study, and wont have the cash to prowl the very expensive city like her UMC and upper class classmates. The networking value will be very limited; the Ivy league does not work that way, the rich hang with the rich, and the poor with the poor. Only people who really crossed those boundaries were very attractive women (going from poor to rich).

This is an important, and often overlooked point when people start shaming middle class parents for not spending $200k+ to send junior to Elite U, when they can go to a school one tier below almost for free.

OP here. I certainly didn't mean to shame anyone not willing to spend money they don't really have on their kid's college expenses. I would probably do it; but I in no way think any less of parents who wouldn't.

[Anonymous]

14 pages in and no idea what people mean by Middle Class.

[Anonymous]

14 pages in and still have no idea what people mean by Middle Class.

[Anonymous]

Yes, what is middle class in this case? 170K, 500K, 75K per year? Let's say it is around 150K. How can you justify taking a loan that is possibly half the cost of your house if your house is 400K, which is a modest house in DC metro? How can you possibly hope that you can repay that if you are mid 40s and have mortgage payments and income will not increase, but decrease with retirement. Are you going to sell your house and pay off that Parent Plus Loan and be without any savings? What am I missing? Even a cheaper in state college, with dorm, is at least 26K, and to me even 100K is a ton of money, having two kids, we are talking about 200K anyway with a regular in state school, unless you are lucky and live close to the college. Tell me how do you plan on paying that off? I certainly wouldn't consider 500K middle class, even if it might be here in DC. And I know from our own FAFSA that with an income of 150K DC got only 5K in Direct student loan for school that was over 50K per year.

[Anonymous]

OP, isn't even talking about herself. She's talking about people she doesn't know well enough to know the how's or why's of their decisions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, what is middle class in this case? 170K, 500K, 75K per year? Let's say it is around 150K. How can you justify taking a loan that is possibly half the cost of your house if your house is 400K, which is a modest house in DC metro? How can you possibly hope that you can repay that if you are mid 40s and have mortgage payments and income will not increase, but decrease with retirement. Are you going to sell your house and pay off that Parent Plus Loan and be without any savings? What am I missing? Even a cheaper in state college, with dorm, is at least 26K, and to me even 100K is a ton of money, having two kids, we are talking about 200K anyway with a regular in state school, unless you are lucky and live close to the college. Tell me how do you plan on paying that off? I certainly wouldn't consider 500K middle class, even if it might be here in DC. And I know from our own FAFSA that with an income of 150K DC got only 5K in Direct student loan for school that was over 50K per year.

According to this thread middle class are those who are paying 50% taxes on their income.

[Anonymous]

I think (?) we were once upper middle class, after the great recession we are probably middle class but still paying 50% in taxes.

[Anonymous]

What I find telling about the college board is that it's often obvious when it's a kid posting or an adult posting. As in this thread, where it's clear it's kids who don't understand the realities of $140k. Or what it takes to be able to come up with that money. Even a successful dual income couple with household incomes in 300ks will find that a substantial sum of money. It's not just the figure itself that causes pause but the opportunity costs that comes with spending the extra $140k for a college degree. Adults understand that $140k can go a long way for retirement savings especially when set aside in long-term investments. $140k is a substantial sum for a down payment on a property. $140k goes a long way towards professional / graduate degrees or pays for it outright.

As an Ivy graduate (undergraduate and graduate) I can confirm there are plenty of people who go to the Ivy League and who don't have a remarkable life afterwards. And there are plenty of people who go to state universities and become extremely successful. I loved my Ivy experience but I'm not foolish enough to think it was that much more of a life changing experience compared to if I'd gone to the flagship state university. It did open some doors for me, but you know what, I still ended up working with graduates of state universities and other non-Ivy private colleges. I did well out of life but I don't owe that to the school but more my own abilities, and that's true for most successful Ivy graduates I know. And UVA is still a big name in itself. UVA has a lot of cachet especially in the South.

Going to the Ivy League to hobnob with the elite is laughable. The kind of people who will become "elite," whatever it means, are the people who will always become elite regardless of the school they attended. An Ivy diploma will not magically take a middle class dullard and transform him into a jet - setter elite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:14 pages in and no idea what people mean by Middle Class.

MC in this specific case, talking about people who could really use the financial aid offered by an elite school but aren't getting any - I'm going to guess somewhere in the range of $150k - 400k. $400k might be pushing it but it's not a place where you have money to burn yet and I've certainly seen posts by people with that income on these boards who are still clueless about how to save for college while still paying the mortgage, saving for their own retirement, paying off their own student loans, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, what is middle class in this case? 170K, 500K, 75K per year? Let's say it is around 150K. How can you justify taking a loan that is possibly half the cost of your house if your house is 400K, which is a modest house in DC metro? How can you possibly hope that you can repay that if you are mid 40s and have mortgage payments and income will not increase, but decrease with retirement. Are you going to sell your house and pay off that Parent Plus Loan and be without any savings? What am I missing? Even a cheaper in state college, with dorm, is at least 26K, and to me even 100K is a ton of money, having two kids, we are talking about 200K anyway with a regular in state school, unless you are lucky and live close to the college. Tell me how do you plan on paying that off? I certainly wouldn't consider 500K middle class, even if it might be here in DC. And I know from our own FAFSA that with an income of 150K DC got only 5K in Direct student loan for school that was over 50K per year.

According to this thread middle class are those who are paying 50% taxes on their income.

Well this is cray since we make over 600k and we don't pay 50% taxes. More like 30%. And we're definitely not middle class and can easily afford to save for our children's educations.