Engineering schools that won’t crush my child’s soul

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How do you find the graduation rate for engineering by school? I looked at the ASEE website and could not find this info.

First, you need to look at first to second year retention rates specifically for engineering. This is usually possible if the the engineering school has separate entry. You often have to dig into the details to get it. The schools that have high rates for engineering students (97-99%) often brag about it(MIT, Penn, CMU, Georgia Tech, Hopkins, Northwestern). Those schools have the luxury of rejecting almost all applicants in the first place; the deck is loaded from the start.
Purdue is very high (92%) for the relatively easier admit rate compared to tip-top E schools. VT is about 75-80% who hit the 3.0 to continue into the second year, based on the most recent data found from 2023. They do not brag about it thus it is hard to find.
The national average of 1st to 2nd Engineering retention. based on studies that quote it is 51% ,though the data is from 2010.

Overall graduation rate in Engineering is important but not as important as the first to second retention. It can often be found in the CDS for schools that separate E-School data.

[Anonymous]

Ideally, one wants a 90+% retention rate.

VT's 75% might be above the mean, but it is well below that.

UVa is visibly lower ranked by USNWR, but advertises a roughly 95% 4yr graduation rate with an Engr degree of students who start in Engr.

It is frustrating that many colleges make these numbers hard to find. A huge pity ASEE does not collect and report them for all engineering schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Purdue and Cornell fall in the 'crush the soul and happiness category' due to coursework, grading and weather.

Doesn’t every engineering program? I think there are certain sunsets of engineering that are less soul crushing: environmental, civil, biomedical..

But electrical and mechanical engineering are going to to be extremely hard and require a ton of work at any accredited engineering school

Chemical Engineering >>>>

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you find the graduation rate for engineering by school? I looked at the ASEE website and could not find this info.

First, you need to look at first to second year retention rates specifically for engineering. This is usually possible if the the engineering school has separate entry. You often have to dig into the details to get it. The schools that have high rates for engineering students (97-99%) often brag about it(MIT, Penn, CMU, Georgia Tech, Hopkins, Northwestern). Those schools have the luxury of rejecting almost all applicants in the first place; the deck is loaded from the start.
Purdue is very high (92%) for the relatively easier admit rate compared to tip-top E schools. VT is about 75-80% who hit the 3.0 to continue into the second year, based on the most recent data found from 2023. They do not brag about it thus it is hard to find.
The national average of 1st to 2nd Engineering retention. based on studies that quote it is 51% ,though the data is from 2010.

Overall graduation rate in Engineering is important but not as important as the first to second retention. It can often be found in the CDS for schools that separate E-School data.

excellent point.

[Anonymous]

Maybe if they view it as soul-crushing, they need to put it in perspective. It's supposed to be challenging. That doesn't mean you need to quit or that it's crushing your soul if you can't achieve a 4.0. The GPAs are often lower. Doesn't mean you need to drop out if you're not the top grade in the class. If you don't fail out, you're doing ok. Just need to finish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe if they view it as soul-crushing, they need to put it in perspective. It's supposed to be challenging. That doesn't mean you need to quit or that it's crushing your soul if you can't achieve a 4.0. The GPAs are often lower. Doesn't mean you need to drop out if you're not the top grade in the class. If you don't fail out, you're doing ok. Just need to finish.

Good point. Plus why gpa in college is so important if it is above 3?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Several threads discuss engineering schools that are hard to just survive. Some hint that there are alternatives

Could you list these alternatives?

Short background: my HS sophomore has great grades and tests well at a difficult school and has a general interest in engineering. But I don’t want him to drift into a situation where his soul could be crushed without choosing that.

Are there schools we could choose with engineering majors where you just learn how to do it without the excessive pressure and stress?

What I don’t understand is why parents have to make the decisions? Let the kids decide and take the consequences.

[Anonymous]

FFS, if you find engineering schools soul crushing hard, maybe don't crib about H1B engineers.

No bright, hardworking, intelligent, skilled and academically capable "American" doing CS/Eng is without a job.

[Anonymous]

Requiring diligence and hard work is one thing. All engineering schools will require diligence and hard work. OP did not express concern about either of these. OP appears to want engineering programs that are supportive rather than trying to weed out students.

Soul-crushing is something else entirely. An example of soul-crushing is a school with a lower graduation rate (or lower retention rate to start of junior year) that is trying to fail students out. Programs with intentional weed-out classes often are soul crushing even for well-prepared students.

The very best engineering schools (e.g., MIT) all have 4yr graduation rates with an engineering degree of 90+%.

Some other engineering schools also have 90+% 4yr graduation rates - usually because they (a) filter applicants more during admission, (b) actively ensure their engineering program is supportive of all students, and (c) avoid having any weed-out classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Several threads discuss engineering schools that are hard to just survive. Some hint that there are alternatives

Could you list these alternatives?

Short background: my HS sophomore has great grades and tests well at a difficult school and has a general interest in engineering. But I don’t want him to drift into a situation where his soul could be crushed without choosing that.

Are there schools we could choose with engineering majors where you just learn how to do it without the excessive pressure and stress?

That is why all the well paid engineering jobs are theme by international students who graduated. Americans have fragile souls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Several threads discuss engineering schools that are hard to just survive. Some hint that there are alternatives

Could you list these alternatives?

Short background: my HS sophomore has great grades and tests well at a difficult school and has a general interest in engineering. But I don’t want him to drift into a situation where his soul could be crushed without choosing that.

Are there schools we could choose with engineering majors where you just learn how to do it without the excessive pressure and stress?

And their parents don’t even give their kids a chance to be challenged and to work hard!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 2.7/4.0 undergrad engineering degree from a lower ranked engineering program has never held me back careerwise. I can and do solve real problems on the job, and that is what matters. On the job is always "open book", unlike the academic tests of memorization.

Yup, you definitely went to a lower ranked program. Higher ranked programs teach their students to solve problems they've never seen before, so they can graduate and solve problems that no one has seen or solved before.

YES. This is the key to top schools, whether it be Engineering or other stem: They teach how to problem solve and they do it by having difficult psets and exams such that 1/3 + of the questions require detailed application of knowledge and understanding of material beyond the scope of the course. Current research problems that have no answer could be on them. The high score could be 78% correct and the professor could say well that is a record high for this exam, and brag about trying to stump them even more next time. It is not MIT alone that does this.
Cornell, Stanford, Penn, Princeton, CMU, JHU, Harvard, and 3-4 more are known for this type of rigor in Engineering courses.
No these are not "soul crushing" environments OP, they are invigorating! Because essentially all students accepted to the E programs are top students, there is not "weedout": the median score of 60% correct will be a B+. The kid with the 78% gets an A as does the rest of the top 1/4 or so, then A-. Very few get Cs for the semester grade, even if they were well below median (B-/C+)on one exam they seek help and improve. The professors want them to improve. Grad TAs help everyone too: these are phD students who have been accepted to these top departments; all had 3.9+ in their undergrad or they would not be at a top school for phD. Undergrad learning assistants who took the course previously are invited to assist because they were top 1-2 students, and are quite helpful, contributing to the collaborative nature of these programs. The students work extremely hard and are challenged; the pressure is lessened by the fact that it is rare to get a C for the semester and 30-40% get A- or A.

+1

It’s definitely hard, but many of the kids at the top schools love a challenge.

It’s only “soul crushing” for kids who aren’t extremely driven or are in engineering for the wrong reasons.

If OP’s kid is at a TJ-caliber school then he may want the peer group and the challenge that a top school provides. I wouldn’t eliminate any schools at this point in the search.

Here we have a cautionary tale on why it’s important to avoid soul crushing schools and people!

To be fair, ABET is ABET.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is at Colorado School of Mines. Could not be happier. She's involved in the nerdy engineering culture and the sporty snowboarding/hiking culture. It's such a supportive, collaborative environment. She's in a learning community so she has built in academic support on her floor. The school is small enough that she has upperclassman as friends and they provide practical guidance about the classes and how to survive. She's on a team preparing for the engineering competitions in April, is on the dive team, and is taking a leadership role in the jewish organization on campus. I could not have wished for a better fit for her. Some of her friends are a bit goofy but no more so than any late teen, early 20s kid. DS is on the spectrum so she knows what ND is. She is not and has found a great group of friends.

Love this! Have a DC who was accepted.

Colorado School of Mines in Golden, Colorado is a hidden gem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is at Colorado School of Mines. Could not be happier. She's involved in the nerdy engineering culture and the sporty snowboarding/hiking culture. It's such a supportive, collaborative environment. She's in a learning community so she has built in academic support on her floor. The school is small enough that she has upperclassman as friends and they provide practical guidance about the classes and how to survive. She's on a team preparing for the engineering competitions in April, is on the dive team, and is taking a leadership role in the jewish organization on campus. I could not have wished for a better fit for her. Some of her friends are a bit goofy but no more so than any late teen, early 20s kid. DS is on the spectrum so she knows what ND is. She is not and has found a great group of friends.

Love this! Have a DC who was accepted.

Colorado School of Mines in Golden, Colorado is a hidden gem.

Not really hidden. Everyone knows it exists. Decent Engineering school but not worth the OOS tuition even with merit.

[Anonymous]

It's supposed to be challenging

Of course it is. And these are students who have excelled in HS in: AP Physics C, AP Chem, AP Calc BC w/top grades. and tippy top math SAT. Why TRY to weed them out?