Is the IB diploma worth it?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Parent of kids whose school offers both IB and many APs. They only school I've heard it matters for is UVA. It's very difficult to get in from our school if you are not full IB. The only ones I know of were wait listed first. On the other had I know kids at Ivies and top LACs (e.g., Williams) who did not do the full IB diploma.

What about William & Mary?

I'm the previous poster and no, plenty of kids from our HS (WL) go to William & Mary without the IB Diploma. It's really just UVA that it's hard to get into without IB.

Is there any shred of evidence for this? The diploma results come much later than acceptance notifications.

I doubt UVa cares about the IB diploma. By the time the IB diploma is final, UVA has already sent most of its acceptance letters. UVa fills most if its openings with ED/EA not with RD. UVa is pretty transparent with the # of students accepted at each stage of the admissions process.

They perhaps don't care if you get the diploma but they are extremely likely to know if you're IBDP. As others have said, UVA is going to be able to tell from your transcript, because they have vast experience with IB kids and they know what TOK means. Also, FCPS students at IB schools provide "student input" to their counselor who writes the recommendation letter. One of the questions on the input form is "If you are an IB Diploma candidate what is your EE about (include title if you have one)?" The counselor will probably mention it, as will the teacher who writes a separate recommendation letter if it's an IB teacher. Finally, kids can bring it to UVA's attention themselves when they submit a "student resume" that says IBDP candidate on it.

Being aware the student is an IBDP candidate and giving it a weight in admissions are two very different things. Please find me at link at UVA that indicates it.

You know full well this is an extremely stupid and dishonest request, because nobody knows how any school truly "gives weight" to anything an applicant does. It's all rumor, and that's why you have students chasing things like "starting a nonprofit". The last thing you're going to find is the school posting its magic admissions formula online.

UVA has said that they give weight to the rigor of curriculum, as many schools do. At an IB school, the IBDP is the most rigorous curriculum. It's not an accident that so many of the kids at IB schools who are admitted to UVA are IBDP kids.

Read a few posts up, someone said the counselor will check most rigorous even on an assortment of IB classes not only the diploma candidates.

UVA does not just say "oh the counselor checked the Most Rigorous box, that's all we need". They look at exactly what classes the student took, and take into account which types of IB classes were taken and which ones were HL or SL. If you took the hardest classes and took them HL, they will notice this and you will be considered to have had a more rigorous education than if you took easy classes, as indeed you should. Similarly they are going to notice if you did the diploma vs merely an assortment.

This is silly. You’re claiming the AOs will guesstimate if the student will do the diploma since the applications are read earlier in the year. And on top of it they will give more weight to academic rigor compared to the students that maybe loaded up on HL classes better aligned with their intended major, despite the high school counselor putting them in the same most rigorous category! You’re just inventing stuff up to make yourself feel better about the path your kid took.

You're just an idiot if you think UVA is guessing. The student will tell them, the school counselor will tell them, and perhaps the teacher recommendation will tell them that the kid is IB diploma. Also they have vast experience with IB kids and they know what an IB diploma curriculum looks like. And Deanj on the UVA admissions blog states many times that they don't like to see kids "specializing" in courses they are excited about or that align with their supposed college major, so no, they will not give "more weight" to those courses. They want to see strong performance in the core classes and they will notice if you took the most challenging HL courses even if they don't "align" with your major.

You’re coping hard.

This is what UVA states on their admission site

Does UVA prefer AP, IB, Cambridge or dual enrolled curricula?
We do not have a preference for one type of course. We suggest that students take advantage of advanced course options at their high school, regardless of the type of curriculum available.

Nothing about needing to take the diploma, or what courses you need to take. Some parents read these statements with an eye at getting confirmation their kid will have an advantage.

I'm sorry you're too stupid to understand that "take advantage of advanced course options at their high school" means, in practice, doing the IB diploma at an IB school and taking the most difficult IB courses.

Unbelievable the level of delusion some parents have! So let’s not take what UVA said at face value

"We suggest that students take advantage of advanced course options at their high school," means do the IB diploma program if you're at an IB school, idiot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s common for advanced students in math to forgo the IB diploma and take dual enrollment math classes instead. Anecdotally, it doesn’t seem to have an adverse impact.

All the advanced kids at my kid's IB high school took dual enrollment math classes as well as their IB diploma classes not instead of.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s common for advanced students in math to forgo the IB diploma and take dual enrollment math classes instead. Anecdotally, it doesn’t seem to have an adverse impact.

All the advanced kids at my kid's IB high school took dual enrollment math classes as well as their IB diploma classes not instead of.

Other advanced kids prioritize taking Multivariable, differential equations, linear algebra, and statistics before IB Math HL. It’s very hard to fit all of them in high school. They won’t be penalized for not doing the IB diploma in the slightest, nor should they.

I haven’t seen a single college admissions page stating you need to do the diploma, recommending it, or suggesting it is beneficial in some way, no idea where this is coming from. IBO advertises the number of students taking it, but that’s another matter.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:For all the talk about how AOs are impressed by IBDP and the very challenging work, most admission results from IB schools are underwhelming, in particular for IB only schools. Some kids from IB magnet do fine, but even there, kids with 4.0 UW GPA, Multivariable, and an assortment of IB and AP classes, end up at UMD in the end. Maybe they weren’t stellar to begin with, but it just feels they would have done better in other settings.

Their mom comes back to report they were “well prepared for college” and “college was easy by comparison”. It’s UMD, and most kids of that caliber end up at more competitive colleges to begin with, where they’re challenged.

This. The worst is when promising kids sacrifice their interest for the IB diploma and for a high gpa. Like when a kid enters high school in Algebra 2, works hard to do AP Calculus BC, AP Physics C, AP Computer Computer Science, before the IBDP years, then taps out and takes the easy way out with IB HL Math, IB HL Physics and IB Computer Science. Because they want to keep their goa ant 4.0 are led to believe the IB Diploma is worth something as a stamp of being well rounded, and a seal for “critical thinking, analysis and writing” total bs.

Of course despite the 4.0, and the many doubled up advanced classes (AP and IB) they won’t do better than UMD, because the upper tier colleges want to see the student challenged themselves in high school, and didn’t just grade grub easy As.

If you sacrifice your interest and passion for the IBDP, then no, the diploma is not worth it.

You think IB HL Math and IB HL Physics are easy? You are hilariously ignorant. Opinion disregarded.

As for "sacrifice your interest and passion" what are you babbling about? lmao. Most of the IB classes are in core subjects (English, math, science, language) that you have to take anyway, you're not sacrificing anything to do that.

IB Math and Physics are similar to introductory first year classes albeit taught at slow pace of one semester per year if even that. Math doesn’t even cover the entire Calculus 1&2 and Physics is Algebra based. Go figure! They are not that hard, literally over one million take them each year. But when your degree is in French medieval literature, then it makes total sense why you believe they’re hard.

Also taking AP Physics first, then IB Physics HL is grade grubbing. Or doing the same trick with computer science. It’s the same material, it shouldn’t even be allowed since they are duplicate courses. But, yeah, that’s what “exceptional” students do.

Someone that has no interest in foreign language or silly subjects like TOK, CAS, but still takes them to get the diploma, is sacrificing their interest for a worthless piece of paper that nobody cares about.

Is that even possible? I’ve never heard of anyone doing this, what would be the point? They get credit for the same classes anyways. I doubt the high school counselor would even approve it.

UC Berkeley specifically say it’s duplicative work.

https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/admission-requirements/ap-exam-credits/#:~:text=Duplication%20with%20college%20courses,will%20award%20credit%20only%20once.

I’ve read on different forums about doing IB Physics first, and then AP Physics because it’s calculus based, but in general people agree it’s a bad idea because of the overlap.

Doing AP Physics first, then IB Physics HL part of the Diploma is quite dumb. It makes no sense and surely is a major red flag for admissions, especially if you do the same with computer science.

It’s more acceptable to take AP Calculus BC and then do Math HL AA as part of the Diploma because there are some differences, but as others said, students often just go on to do dual enrollment in math instead and don’t pursue DP.

Taking a high school level class, then the AP/HL class is fine since they are considered prerequisites.

At RMIB, the IBDP kids take IB physics HL, then self study for AP physics, as well as take IB physics exam. They are two different physics exams -- and some colleges will give you credit for both, which covers two types of physics classes. My kid is a STEM major, so that helped DC.

BTW, my kid took AP BC calc, IB HL math and MVC, passed all exams with the highest scores, and got credit for 4 math classes.

Is this also UMD? It’s so rare to get credit for both AP and IB physics exams at any college, even more surprising for stem majors since they only count calculus based physics for major requirements. Maybe it’s for elective credit. What 4 classes for math, is it Calculus 1&2, Multivariable and differential equations? Then there’s no credit for IB math.

I guess it works if you want to finish early and save time and money. Is there any other school in top 50 that does this?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:For all the talk about how AOs are impressed by IBDP and the very challenging work, most admission results from IB schools are underwhelming, in particular for IB only schools. Some kids from IB magnet do fine, but even there, kids with 4.0 UW GPA, Multivariable, and an assortment of IB and AP classes, end up at UMD in the end. Maybe they weren’t stellar to begin with, but it just feels they would have done better in other settings.

Their mom comes back to report they were “well prepared for college” and “college was easy by comparison”. It’s UMD, and most kids of that caliber end up at more competitive colleges to begin with, where they’re challenged.

This. The worst is when promising kids sacrifice their interest for the IB diploma and for a high gpa. Like when a kid enters high school in Algebra 2, works hard to do AP Calculus BC, AP Physics C, AP Computer Computer Science, before the IBDP years, then taps out and takes the easy way out with IB HL Math, IB HL Physics and IB Computer Science. Because they want to keep their goa ant 4.0 are led to believe the IB Diploma is worth something as a stamp of being well rounded, and a seal for “critical thinking, analysis and writing” total bs.

Of course despite the 4.0, and the many doubled up advanced classes (AP and IB) they won’t do better than UMD, because the upper tier colleges want to see the student challenged themselves in high school, and didn’t just grade grub easy As.

If you sacrifice your interest and passion for the IBDP, then no, the diploma is not worth it.

You think IB HL Math and IB HL Physics are easy? You are hilariously ignorant. Opinion disregarded.

As for "sacrifice your interest and passion" what are you babbling about? lmao. Most of the IB classes are in core subjects (English, math, science, language) that you have to take anyway, you're not sacrificing anything to do that.

IB Math and Physics are similar to introductory first year classes albeit taught at slow pace of one semester per year if even that. Math doesn’t even cover the entire Calculus 1&2 and Physics is Algebra based. Go figure! They are not that hard, literally over one million take them each year. But when your degree is in French medieval literature, then it makes total sense why you believe they’re hard.

Also taking AP Physics first, then IB Physics HL is grade grubbing. Or doing the same trick with computer science. It’s the same material, it shouldn’t even be allowed since they are duplicate courses. But, yeah, that’s what “exceptional” students do.

Someone that has no interest in foreign language or silly subjects like TOK, CAS, but still takes them to get the diploma, is sacrificing their interest for a worthless piece of paper that nobody cares about.

Is that even possible? I’ve never heard of anyone doing this, what would be the point? They get credit for the same classes anyways. I doubt the high school counselor would even approve it.

UC Berkeley specifically say it’s duplicative work.

https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/admission-requirements/ap-exam-credits/#:~:text=Duplication%20with%20college%20courses,will%20award%20credit%20only%20once.

I’ve read on different forums about doing IB Physics first, and then AP Physics because it’s calculus based, but in general people agree it’s a bad idea because of the overlap.

Doing AP Physics first, then IB Physics HL part of the Diploma is quite dumb. It makes no sense and surely is a major red flag for admissions, especially if you do the same with computer science.

It’s more acceptable to take AP Calculus BC and then do Math HL AA as part of the Diploma because there are some differences, but as others said, students often just go on to do dual enrollment in math instead and don’t pursue DP.

Taking a high school level class, then the AP/HL class is fine since they are considered prerequisites.

Duplicating coursework is frowned upon, because it looks like the kid is taking the easy way out to get high grades.

It might be fine taking a DE class, and then the AP version because DE is seen as less rigorous and less likely to receive credit.

Taking AP first, then DE is also possible, but I’ve only seen it for students that didn’t sit for the AP exam, then doing community college for two years and hoping to transfer to an in state.

IB kids don’t usually do DE, but may take APs or self study for the exam, although I don’t fully understand why.

Duplicating coursework is not advisable, it’s a huge time sink, with no benefit. For the exams maybe, but it’s a huge time investment and again the benefit is marginal unless we’re talking about SL classes that don’t get much credit.

It makes most sense to plan all four years of high school, diploma or not and figure out the optimal path. AP seems to be the best, since if you get a good score, there’s nothing else to worry about.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Parent of kids whose school offers both IB and many APs. They only school I've heard it matters for is UVA. It's very difficult to get in from our school if you are not full IB. The only ones I know of were wait listed first. On the other had I know kids at Ivies and top LACs (e.g., Williams) who did not do the full IB diploma.

What about William & Mary?

I'm the previous poster and no, plenty of kids from our HS (WL) go to William & Mary without the IB Diploma. It's really just UVA that it's hard to get into without IB.

Is there any shred of evidence for this? The diploma results come much later than acceptance notifications.

I doubt UVa cares about the IB diploma. By the time the IB diploma is final, UVA has already sent most of its acceptance letters. UVa fills most if its openings with ED/EA not with RD. UVa is pretty transparent with the # of students accepted at each stage of the admissions process.

They perhaps don't care if you get the diploma but they are extremely likely to know if you're IBDP. As others have said, UVA is going to be able to tell from your transcript, because they have vast experience with IB kids and they know what TOK means. Also, FCPS students at IB schools provide "student input" to their counselor who writes the recommendation letter. One of the questions on the input form is "If you are an IB Diploma candidate what is your EE about (include title if you have one)?" The counselor will probably mention it, as will the teacher who writes a separate recommendation letter if it's an IB teacher. Finally, kids can bring it to UVA's attention themselves when they submit a "student resume" that says IBDP candidate on it.

Being aware the student is an IBDP candidate and giving it a weight in admissions are two very different things. Please find me at link at UVA that indicates it.

You know full well this is an extremely stupid and dishonest request, because nobody knows how any school truly "gives weight" to anything an applicant does. It's all rumor, and that's why you have students chasing things like "starting a nonprofit". The last thing you're going to find is the school posting its magic admissions formula online.

UVA has said that they give weight to the rigor of curriculum, as many schools do. At an IB school, the IBDP is the most rigorous curriculum. It's not an accident that so many of the kids at IB schools who are admitted to UVA are IBDP kids.

Read a few posts up, someone said the counselor will check most rigorous even on an assortment of IB classes not only the diploma candidates.

UVA does not just say "oh the counselor checked the Most Rigorous box, that's all we need". They look at exactly what classes the student took, and take into account which types of IB classes were taken and which ones were HL or SL. If you took the hardest classes and took them HL, they will notice this and you will be considered to have had a more rigorous education than if you took easy classes, as indeed you should. Similarly they are going to notice if you did the diploma vs merely an assortment.

This.

[Anonymous]

At our FCPS IB HS the kids that do the full diploma are the students being accepted to UVA, W&M and T20 schools.

Do students who take a rigorous course load and don’t pursue the diploma get into top schools? There are some who do. But the students who pursue the IB diploma are far more likely to get in.

I have three friends in higher ed admissions and all say when they see IB diploma candidate it gives those students an edge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:At our FCPS IB HS the kids that do the full diploma are the students being accepted to UVA, W&M and T20 schools.

Do students who take a rigorous course load and don’t pursue the diploma get into top schools? There are some who do. But the students who pursue the IB diploma are far more likely to get in.

I have three friends in higher ed admissions and all say when they see IB diploma candidate it gives those students an edge.

At an IB only high school, I could see that happening if the school counselor only checks most rigor for Diploma candidates. But it was posted earlier that at Marshall that’s not the case and kids doing an assortment of classes also get most rigor.

How would colleges give diploma candidates an edge half a year before they even take the exams? They would make it clear on their admissions pages that if you do IB, you should do diploma, but that’s never the case.

Looking at AP Capstone Diploma, which is very similar to the IB Diploma, nobody ever argues it gives the students an edge. It’s the same for IBD.

People invent college counselor friends, make up anecdotes, really puzzled why.

[Anonymous]

The only advantage for the IB diploma on its own that I’m aware of is within University of California system. IB diploma recipients with scores of at least 30 get 6 elective quarter credits. For comparison HL and AP classes get 8 quarter credits.

So the IB diploma counts less than an extra course, but only after the scores are received, so after admissions decisions.

Keep in mind that UC has some of the most generous IB credit policies, I don’t know of any other college doing the same, so that’s the greatest advantage one can derive from being a diploma candidate, and less than that at other colleges.

Ballpark, the participation in the IB diploma matters for admissions as much as enrollment in a HL/AP before getting a grade, so it makes perfect sense that doing an assortment of IB classes won’t hold the student back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The only advantage for the IB diploma on its own that I’m aware of is within University of California system. IB diploma recipients with scores of at least 30 get 6 elective quarter credits. For comparison HL and AP classes get 8 quarter credits.

So the IB diploma counts less than an extra course, but only after the scores are received, so after admissions decisions.

Keep in mind that UC has some of the most generous IB credit policies, I don’t know of any other college doing the same, so that’s the greatest advantage one can derive from being a diploma candidate, and less than that at other colleges.

Ballpark, the participation in the IB diploma matters for admissions as much as enrollment in a HL/AP before getting a grade, so it makes perfect sense that doing an assortment of IB classes won’t hold the student back.

That’s in line with the benefit of the AP Capstone diploma. The only one in top 20, MIT gives as much credit as for one class for AP Capstone with a score of 5.

Also in line with the extra amount of work required, TOK, CAS and EE require similar amount of work as an HL course.

I agree that if you really like the diploma program, you should do it. If not, choose something you’re enthusiastic about and you’ll be fine.

Given how rarely credit is given for these diploma programs, I’d argue it’s always better to take a real class, that’s consistently valued across all top universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only advantage for the IB diploma on its own that I’m aware of is within University of California system. IB diploma recipients with scores of at least 30 get 6 elective quarter credits. For comparison HL and AP classes get 8 quarter credits.

So the IB diploma counts less than an extra course, but only after the scores are received, so after admissions decisions.

Keep in mind that UC has some of the most generous IB credit policies, I don’t know of any other college doing the same, so that’s the greatest advantage one can derive from being a diploma candidate, and less than that at other colleges.

Ballpark, the participation in the IB diploma matters for admissions as much as enrollment in a HL/AP before getting a grade, so it makes perfect sense that doing an assortment of IB classes won’t hold the student back.

That’s in line with the benefit of the AP Capstone diploma. The only one in top 20, MIT gives as much credit as for one class for AP Capstone with a score of 5.

Also in line with the extra amount of work required, TOK, CAS and EE require similar amount of work as an HL course.

I agree that if you really like the diploma program, you should do it. If not, choose something you’re enthusiastic about and you’ll be fine.

Given how rarely credit is given for these diploma programs, I’d argue it’s always better to take a real class, that’s consistently valued across all top universities.

+1

This jibes with how Cambridge University in UK evaluates diploma programs.

Minimum entry requirements for IB are a score of at least 41, and 776 in HL subjects.

For US applicants they require 5APs with a score of 5 and specifically say that AP Capstone diploma cannot be counted, so it’s worth less than a regular AP class.

In short:

IBDP+3HL+3SL=5AP

The IB diploma is worth less than an extra course.

[Anonymous]

Why is anyone surprised IBDP on its own is not that big of a deal?

The breakdown for what’s required and the amount of teaching hours:
Theory of knowledge: 100 hours of light discussion
Creativity, Activity, Service: used to be 150 hours, but they removed the time mandate because of rampant cheating and misreporting and now they focus on “learning outcomes”.
Extended Essay: 50 ish hours

In all, the diploma specific tasks are 300 hours of easy work with most of it (CAS) being self reported with no assignments and no verification. An HL class is 240 hours, and that’s a college level work, not sitting around chit chatting.

It would be completely unfair to give the edge to a diploma candidate taking it easy with fluff instead of someone choosing to do a challenging HL class like Chemistry instead. Colleges aren’t stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only advantage for the IB diploma on its own that I’m aware of is within University of California system. IB diploma recipients with scores of at least 30 get 6 elective quarter credits. For comparison HL and AP classes get 8 quarter credits.

So the IB diploma counts less than an extra course, but only after the scores are received, so after admissions decisions.

Keep in mind that UC has some of the most generous IB credit policies, I don’t know of any other college doing the same, so that’s the greatest advantage one can derive from being a diploma candidate, and less than that at other colleges.

Ballpark, the participation in the IB diploma matters for admissions as much as enrollment in a HL/AP before getting a grade, so it makes perfect sense that doing an assortment of IB classes won’t hold the student back.

That’s in line with the benefit of the AP Capstone diploma. The only one in top 20, MIT gives as much credit as for one class for AP Capstone with a score of 5.

Also in line with the extra amount of work required, TOK, CAS and EE require similar amount of work as an HL course.

I agree that if you really like the diploma program, you should do it. If not, choose something you’re enthusiastic about and you’ll be fine.

Given how rarely credit is given for these diploma programs, I’d argue it’s always better to take a real class, that’s consistently valued across all top universities.

+1

These diploma programs are based on classes that nobody cares about, Theory of knowledge, extended essay, seminar, research, it’s just trying too hard to come up with yet one more differentiating feature.

The weirdest part is when you see parents convinced it’s going to get their student in UVA, WM or Ivy, which is another level of stupidity. How can anyone imagine that CAS will give an edge to UVA when I know of kids filling in their sheet the night before with made up hours and reflections.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only advantage for the IB diploma on its own that I’m aware of is within University of California system. IB diploma recipients with scores of at least 30 get 6 elective quarter credits. For comparison HL and AP classes get 8 quarter credits.

So the IB diploma counts less than an extra course, but only after the scores are received, so after admissions decisions.

Keep in mind that UC has some of the most generous IB credit policies, I don’t know of any other college doing the same, so that’s the greatest advantage one can derive from being a diploma candidate, and less than that at other colleges.

Ballpark, the participation in the IB diploma matters for admissions as much as enrollment in a HL/AP before getting a grade, so it makes perfect sense that doing an assortment of IB classes won’t hold the student back.

That’s in line with the benefit of the AP Capstone diploma. The only one in top 20, MIT gives as much credit as for one class for AP Capstone with a score of 5.

Also in line with the extra amount of work required, TOK, CAS and EE require similar amount of work as an HL course.

I agree that if you really like the diploma program, you should do it. If not, choose something you’re enthusiastic about and you’ll be fine.

Given how rarely credit is given for these diploma programs, I’d argue it’s always better to take a real class, that’s consistently valued across all top universities.

+1

This jibes with how Cambridge University in UK evaluates diploma programs.

Minimum entry requirements for IB are a score of at least 41, and 776 in HL subjects.

For US applicants they require 5APs with a score of 5 and specifically say that AP Capstone diploma cannot be counted, so it’s worth less than a regular AP class.

In short:

IBDP+3HL+3SL=5AP

The IB diploma is worth less than an extra course.

Note that the IB students typically take 3 HL classes in both 11th and 12th grade. The "course" is over 2 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I haven’t seen a single college admissions page stating you need to do the diploma, recommending it, or suggesting it is beneficial in some way, no idea where this is coming from. IBO advertises the number of students taking it, but that’s another matter.

OK, now tell me if you've ever seen a college admissions page stating that you need to do some given (high) number of AP courses, recommending you do so, or suggesting it is beneficial in some way. They don't. Obviously all these FCPS kids shouldn't bother taking 10+ AP courses, there is no point in doing so if college admissions pages don't directly tell you to.

What college admissions pages tell you is something along the lines of "take the most challenging courses available at your high school and get good grades in them." At an IB school, that means get the IB diploma.