New opposition petition to the Maury-Miner boundary proposal from DME

[Anonymous]

Did DME provide the additional analysis they were promising?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in-bound for Miner and wholeheartedly support the proposal to pair the schools. I get why Maury parents would oppose it - you paid a premium for your rowhomes with a specific understanding that you could send your children to a majority-white and high-SES elementary school and here comes DME wanting to essentially reverse the gentrifying effects that made Maury the school it is today and throw open the gates to the grandkids of the starburst crowd. I'd be gnashing my teeth too, but that doesn't mean this doesn't make sense for the neighborhood as a whole, or for the children in our little pocket of Northeast as a whole, which is where DME's greatest duty lies.

I've never been one for the "In this house we believe..." signs like many of the folks blowing a gasket over this proposal, but hoo boy y'all's opposition to this (especially in that 140+ page thread, which was locked by the time I finished reading it) has led to a lot of hysterics and bizarre takes.

Imagine my surprise in that first thread to hear that my neighborhood is "controlled by gangs" and "might as well be Baltimore." Yes, the concentrated poverty and crime in Azeeze-Bates and the Pentacle Apartments is unfortunate, but the bottom line is that this proposal is the best option for the neighborhood as a whole. The neighborhood is not scary and the starburst doesn't really intersect with the comings and goings at Miner. It's on the other side of a four lane road and a world away. The schools are not far apart - hearing all this woe-is-me stuff about terrible commutes is comical, as well as these preposterous proposals to do a public housing gerrymander or foist Miner's kids on faraway Ludlow-Taylor instead. Then in desperation y'all say "just throw money at it, just hire a superstar principal, anything but putting my kids in the same building with them.

I believe the ugly truth is that a lot of these low-SES at-risk children are beyond saving. No amount of money spent on smart boards or tutoring or enrichment is going to cure what ails them, because it's bone deep. It's a cyclical tragedy and a Gordian knot I don't pretend to be qualified to dissect. There is, of course, some variation in performance between schools with lots of at-risk kids, but on the whole I'd argue that schools like Maury or LT didn't improve just because the parents just cared so very much more than Miner parents or what have you...it's because the students of yesteryear got body-snatched and replaced with high-SES, Type-A-mommy, white kids.

The biggest benefit of this proposal to me is - unfortunately somewhat dependent on to what degree y'all pack up your yard signs and catch the next D6 to the Palisades - that it has the potential to massively increase buy-in from in-bound Miner UMC parents who otherwise generally lottery their kids into a charter or nearby DCPS elementary school in the upper grades. If that happened, you get a truly diverse student body that still has a solid percentage of UMC parents and theoretically less OOB students coming in from EOTR. That isn't going to "fix" education for most of the in-bound at-risk kids growing up in Ward 7 without fathers and/or who never get spoken to unless it's a yell or a slap, but it can be a rising tide that lifts all ships and perhaps set a few of those unfortunates on a better path and leads to a student body that isn't just concentrated poverty. Every other idea I've seen proposed here really just boils down to Maury protectionism and keeping Miner's plight out of sight out of mind.

"that it has the potential to massively increase buy-in from in-bound Miner UMC parents who otherwise generally lottery their kids into a charter or nearby DCPS elementary school in the upper grades. If that happened....."

Big IF!

Does the DME have any data to support this proposed pipe dream? Because we have another Cluster school ON THE HILL (not in North Carolina) where the Cluster model drastically decreased IB participation in the upper grades. It needs to be more than DME Vibes.

There are a huge amount of in-bound Maury UMC families who lottery their kids into charters in the upper grades RIGHT NOW, when Maury is supposedly a great school.

The upper gradE is 5th. When Basis and Latin start. The Cluster will make potential E-H families lottery or leave even earlier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Did DME provide the additional analysis they were promising?

Nope.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in-bound for Miner and wholeheartedly support the proposal to pair the schools. I get why Maury parents would oppose it - you paid a premium for your rowhomes with a specific understanding that you could send your children to a majority-white and high-SES elementary school and here comes DME wanting to essentially reverse the gentrifying effects that made Maury the school it is today and throw open the gates to the grandkids of the starburst crowd. I'd be gnashing my teeth too, but that doesn't mean this doesn't make sense for the neighborhood as a whole, or for the children in our little pocket of Northeast as a whole, which is where DME's greatest duty lies.

I've never been one for the "In this house we believe..." signs like many of the folks blowing a gasket over this proposal, but hoo boy y'all's opposition to this (especially in that 140+ page thread, which was locked by the time I finished reading it) has led to a lot of hysterics and bizarre takes.

Imagine my surprise in that first thread to hear that my neighborhood is "controlled by gangs" and "might as well be Baltimore." Yes, the concentrated poverty and crime in Azeeze-Bates and the Pentacle Apartments is unfortunate, but the bottom line is that this proposal is the best option for the neighborhood as a whole. The neighborhood is not scary and the starburst doesn't really intersect with the comings and goings at Miner. It's on the other side of a four lane road and a world away. The schools are not far apart - hearing all this woe-is-me stuff about terrible commutes is comical, as well as these preposterous proposals to do a public housing gerrymander or foist Miner's kids on faraway Ludlow-Taylor instead. Then in desperation y'all say "just throw money at it, just hire a superstar principal, anything but putting my kids in the same building with them.

I believe the ugly truth is that a lot of these low-SES at-risk children are beyond saving. No amount of money spent on smart boards or tutoring or enrichment is going to cure what ails them, because it's bone deep. It's a cyclical tragedy and a Gordian knot I don't pretend to be qualified to dissect. There is, of course, some variation in performance between schools with lots of at-risk kids, but on the whole I'd argue that schools like Maury or LT didn't improve just because the parents just cared so very much more than Miner parents or what have you...it's because the students of yesteryear got body-snatched and replaced with high-SES, Type-A-mommy, white kids.

The biggest benefit of this proposal to me is - unfortunately somewhat dependent on to what degree y'all pack up your yard signs and catch the next D6 to the Palisades - that it has the potential to massively increase buy-in from in-bound Miner UMC parents who otherwise generally lottery their kids into a charter or nearby DCPS elementary school in the upper grades. If that happened, you get a truly diverse student body that still has a solid percentage of UMC parents and theoretically less OOB students coming in from EOTR. That isn't going to "fix" education for most of the in-bound at-risk kids growing up in Ward 7 without fathers and/or who never get spoken to unless it's a yell or a slap, but it can be a rising tide that lifts all ships and perhaps set a few of those unfortunates on a better path and leads to a student body that isn't just concentrated poverty. Every other idea I've seen proposed here really just boils down to Maury protectionism and keeping Miner's plight out of sight out of mind.

"that it has the potential to massively increase buy-in from in-bound Miner UMC parents who otherwise generally lottery their kids into a charter or nearby DCPS elementary school in the upper grades. If that happened....."

Big IF!

Does the DME have any data to support this proposed pipe dream? Because we have another Cluster school ON THE HILL (not in North Carolina) where the Cluster model drastically decreased IB participation in the upper grades. It needs to be more than DME Vibes.

Agree. This is an overall misguided proposal based on wishful-thinking.

More likely than not, more Maury parents will (a) move their kids to better schools, (b) move out of the neighborhood, which will cause two bad schools - not “two good schools” as DME’s Jennifer Comey seem to believe. The IB/OOB Peabody-Watkins cluster shows this well as you say - most parents will choose what’s best for their child over some broader societal goal. Good schools in DC seem to be created by groups of resourceful parents that decide to invest in a school (primarily by having their kids attend the local school) and who knows when this will be the time again when the current group that made Maury what it is feels betrayed. (Also, the area around Miner is not safe – DC should deal with that first before putting more kids in harms way).

Two questions:

- Why does it matter that a failing school is in proximity (0.5m) to a good one? Should not each failing school be equally addressed, and if they want to shuffle things around, shouldn’t the impact of at risk students be equally distributed through DCPS?

- How binding will DME's recommendations be, and how can political pressure be put on the Mayor to reject this potential proposal beyond the petition? I don’t believe Maury is being punished as some suggest (why?) but clearly some schools are being protected because of political pressure/cost.

Agree on your first point. When I saw just how bad the Miner data was, I thought a better solution would be closing the school and splitting the zone between Maury, LT, SWS, and Payne.

Agree that would be a better solution. SWS parents, in particular, must be cackling in glee that they aren’t under the microscope on this. DME picked its target and they escaped.

SWS isn’t zoned and already has an at-risk set aside.

I haven't been able to find how many seats SWS is actually setting aside -- does anyone know?

It's on the chart below but it is 6 seats in PK3.

https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/aaron2446/viz/MSDCSeatsandWaitlistOfferData_draft/MSDCPublicDisplay

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did DME provide the additional analysis they were promising?

Nope.

So… what now? Anyone in either PTO have any info on this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in-bound for Miner and wholeheartedly support the proposal to pair the schools. I get why Maury parents would oppose it - you paid a premium for your rowhomes with a specific understanding that you could send your children to a majority-white and high-SES elementary school and here comes DME wanting to essentially reverse the gentrifying effects that made Maury the school it is today and throw open the gates to the grandkids of the starburst crowd. I'd be gnashing my teeth too, but that doesn't mean this doesn't make sense for the neighborhood as a whole, or for the children in our little pocket of Northeast as a whole, which is where DME's greatest duty lies.

I've never been one for the "In this house we believe..." signs like many of the folks blowing a gasket over this proposal, but hoo boy y'all's opposition to this (especially in that 140+ page thread, which was locked by the time I finished reading it) has led to a lot of hysterics and bizarre takes.

Imagine my surprise in that first thread to hear that my neighborhood is "controlled by gangs" and "might as well be Baltimore." Yes, the concentrated poverty and crime in Azeeze-Bates and the Pentacle Apartments is unfortunate, but the bottom line is that this proposal is the best option for the neighborhood as a whole. The neighborhood is not scary and the starburst doesn't really intersect with the comings and goings at Miner. It's on the other side of a four lane road and a world away. The schools are not far apart - hearing all this woe-is-me stuff about terrible commutes is comical, as well as these preposterous proposals to do a public housing gerrymander or foist Miner's kids on faraway Ludlow-Taylor instead. Then in desperation y'all say "just throw money at it, just hire a superstar principal, anything but putting my kids in the same building with them.

I believe the ugly truth is that a lot of these low-SES at-risk children are beyond saving. No amount of money spent on smart boards or tutoring or enrichment is going to cure what ails them, because it's bone deep. It's a cyclical tragedy and a Gordian knot I don't pretend to be qualified to dissect. There is, of course, some variation in performance between schools with lots of at-risk kids, but on the whole I'd argue that schools like Maury or LT didn't improve just because the parents just cared so very much more than Miner parents or what have you...it's because the students of yesteryear got body-snatched and replaced with high-SES, Type-A-mommy, white kids.

The biggest benefit of this proposal to me is - unfortunately somewhat dependent on to what degree y'all pack up your yard signs and catch the next D6 to the Palisades - that it has the potential to massively increase buy-in from in-bound Miner UMC parents who otherwise generally lottery their kids into a charter or nearby DCPS elementary school in the upper grades. If that happened, you get a truly diverse student body that still has a solid percentage of UMC parents and theoretically less OOB students coming in from EOTR. That isn't going to "fix" education for most of the in-bound at-risk kids growing up in Ward 7 without fathers and/or who never get spoken to unless it's a yell or a slap, but it can be a rising tide that lifts all ships and perhaps set a few of those unfortunates on a better path and leads to a student body that isn't just concentrated poverty. Every other idea I've seen proposed here really just boils down to Maury protectionism and keeping Miner's plight out of sight out of mind.

"that it has the potential to massively increase buy-in from in-bound Miner UMC parents who otherwise generally lottery their kids into a charter or nearby DCPS elementary school in the upper grades. If that happened....."

Big IF!

Does the DME have any data to support this proposed pipe dream? Because we have another Cluster school ON THE HILL (not in North Carolina) where the Cluster model drastically decreased IB participation in the upper grades. It needs to be more than DME Vibes.

There are a huge amount of in-bound Maury UMC families who lottery their kids into charters in the upper grades RIGHT NOW, when Maury is supposedly a great school.

For real. Does DC never need to grapple with its completely substandard offerings in upper elementary and above? I can't understand it. FCPS is right there! Just offer what they offer.

As a former Maury family who lotteries my kids out for fifth—it was absolutely because of a need to get into a middle school that wasn’t EH and not at ALL a statement on Maury. We would have preferred to stay at Maury for 5th, if that didn’t rank our chances for Latin or Basis.

[Anonymous]

I don’t get why the White Miner families leading the charge here are in favor of the proposal. Do they think the Maury families won’t leave immediately? What Maury do they think they’ll get? So naive. They’d rather bring down all of us than face up to the fact that they should’ve bought in bounds for a better school. Grow up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how regular black folk never demand any of this diversity sh*t, but bear the brunt of resentment that this crap drums up. We all just need to die I’m so sick of it.

Who do you think is making all these decisions?? Tell it the mayor, OSSE, etc… and the city which is run by predominantly black people.

Voted in by whites as well… think Black people in positions of power are for blacks? Most of the time they aren’t and are boot licking for their donors/ambitions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how regular black folk never demand any of this diversity sh*t, but bear the brunt of resentment that this crap drums up. We all just need to die I’m so sick of it.

Who do you think is making all these decisions?? Tell it the mayor, OSSE, etc… and the city which is run by predominantly black people.

Voted in by whites as well… think Black people in positions of power are for blacks? Most of the time they aren’t and are boot licking for their donors/ambitions.

So who exactly are their donors and ambitions who want this “equity” stuff then? Please tell. Big corporations run by white people?!

And if regular black people don’t want this “diversity” stuff, then show up at the meetings and say so.

Whether you like it or not, the fact and reality is that this city is run predominantly by black people who are the same people running the show and making these stupid decisions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t get why the White Miner families leading the charge here are in favor of the proposal. Do they think the Maury families won’t leave immediately? What Maury do they think they’ll get? So naive. They’d rather bring down all of us than face up to the fact that they should’ve bought in bounds for a better school. Grow up.

I think the assumption/belief that ALL the IB white families will leave is naive. There are white families who send their kids to Payne, Watkins, JO Wilson, Tyler, Van Ness. And those schools don't have Maury's history.

A lot of people just want a decent IB school. Yes, there are families that bought IB for Maury expressly to get the school. I personally think this is a little nuts give the MS/HS situation, but people can do what they want. But there are plenty of parents who don't need "the best" elementary school (especially when "best" is measured simply by percentage of white and high SES families). They just want a decent school. I think Maury will still be that for a lot of families now IB, even with the cluster, and then you will get a lot of interest from IB families from the Miner catchment who currently feel like Miner doesn't meet their threshold for "decent."

There are also likely white and high SES families in the surrounding area who would be willing to give the cluster a shot over their IB. Thinking of people IB for Wheatley, in particular -- that's not a bad commute and it's a big upgrade for them because Wheatley is a PK-8 school and very few people want to send their kids there for MS. EH might not be good enough for a lot of Hill East families, but it's a step up from Wheatley.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t get why the White Miner families leading the charge here are in favor of the proposal. Do they think the Maury families won’t leave immediately? What Maury do they think they’ll get? So naive. They’d rather bring down all of us than face up to the fact that they should’ve bought in bounds for a better school. Grow up.

I think the assumption/belief that ALL the IB white families will leave is naive. There are white families who send their kids to Payne, Watkins, JO Wilson, Tyler, Van Ness. And those schools don't have Maury's history.

A lot of people just want a decent IB school. Yes, there are families that bought IB for Maury expressly to get the school. I personally think this is a little nuts give the MS/HS situation, but people can do what they want. But there are plenty of parents who don't need "the best" elementary school (especially when "best" is measured simply by percentage of white and high SES families). They just want a decent school. I think Maury will still be that for a lot of families now IB, even with the cluster, and then you will get a lot of interest from IB families from the Miner catchment who currently feel like Miner doesn't meet their threshold for "decent."

There are also likely white and high SES families in the surrounding area who would be willing to give the cluster a shot over their IB. Thinking of people IB for Wheatley, in particular -- that's not a bad commute and it's a big upgrade for them because Wheatley is a PK-8 school and very few people want to send their kids there for MS. EH might not be good enough for a lot of Hill East families, but it's a step up from Wheatley.

There’s no reason to believe that post-cluster Maury will still be “decent” - especially in the view of the people who moved to this area specifically for their kids to attend the current version of Maury, which is a top elementary school in DC. Plus, even if Maury does wind up being “decent” post-cluster, that’s far from certain at this point, and it’s doubtful that Maury families will stick around to find out. The people who moved here to send their kids to Maury aren’t the type of people who are willing to gamble on their children’s education.

This idea is doomed to fail.

Deputy Mayor for Education should be renamed Deputy Mayor for Diversity, because that seems to be the main focus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how regular black folk never demand any of this diversity sh*t, but bear the brunt of resentment that this crap drums up. We all just need to die I’m so sick of it.

Who do you think is making all these decisions?? Tell it the mayor, OSSE, etc… and the city which is run by predominantly black people.

Voted in by whites as well… think Black people in positions of power are for blacks? Most of the time they aren’t and are boot licking for their donors/ambitions.

So who exactly are their donors and ambitions who want this “equity” stuff then? Please tell. Big corporations run by white people?!

And if regular black people don’t want this “diversity” stuff, then show up at the meetings and say so.

Whether you like it or not, the fact and reality is that this city is run predominantly by black people who are the same people running the show and making these stupid decisions.

You don’t seem to be understanding what is being said to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t get why the White Miner families leading the charge here are in favor of the proposal. Do they think the Maury families won’t leave immediately? What Maury do they think they’ll get? So naive. They’d rather bring down all of us than face up to the fact that they should’ve bought in bounds for a better school. Grow up.

I think the assumption/belief that ALL the IB white families will leave is naive. There are white families who send their kids to Payne, Watkins, JO Wilson, Tyler, Van Ness. And those schools don't have Maury's history.

A lot of people just want a decent IB school. Yes, there are families that bought IB for Maury expressly to get the school. I personally think this is a little nuts give the MS/HS situation, but people can do what they want. But there are plenty of parents who don't need "the best" elementary school (especially when "best" is measured simply by percentage of white and high SES families). They just want a decent school. I think Maury will still be that for a lot of families now IB, even with the cluster, and then you will get a lot of interest from IB families from the Miner catchment who currently feel like Miner doesn't meet their threshold for "decent."

There are also likely white and high SES families in the surrounding area who would be willing to give the cluster a shot over their IB. Thinking of people IB for Wheatley, in particular -- that's not a bad commute and it's a big upgrade for them because Wheatley is a PK-8 school and very few people want to send their kids there for MS. EH might not be good enough for a lot of Hill East families, but it's a step up from Wheatley.

There’s no reason to believe that post-cluster Maury will still be “decent” - especially in the view of the people who moved to this area specifically for their kids to attend the current version of Maury, which is a top elementary school in DC. Plus, even if Maury does wind up being “decent” post-cluster, that’s far from certain at this point, and it’s doubtful that Maury families will stick around to find out. The people who moved here to send their kids to Maury aren’t the type of people who are willing to gamble on their children’s education.

This idea is doomed to fail.

Deputy Mayor for Education should be renamed Deputy Mayor for Diversity, because that seems to be the main focus.

The cluster will be better than Miner and likely better than Wheatley and a number of other nearby schools. Even if some families IB for Maury bail, there are plenty of families in the broader neighborhood, including those now IB for Miner, who will be happy to take their place.

People complain about the CH cluster but Peabody remains a relatively in demand ECE program and Watkins is considered better than a number of other options.

It's all about relative quality, especially within the lottery system. You don't need to be the best school, you just need to be better than nearby alternatives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t get why the White Miner families leading the charge here are in favor of the proposal. Do they think the Maury families won’t leave immediately? What Maury do they think they’ll get? So naive. They’d rather bring down all of us than face up to the fact that they should’ve bought in bounds for a better school. Grow up.

I think the assumption/belief that ALL the IB white families will leave is naive. There are white families who send their kids to Payne, Watkins, JO Wilson, Tyler, Van Ness. And those schools don't have Maury's history.

A lot of people just want a decent IB school. Yes, there are families that bought IB for Maury expressly to get the school. I personally think this is a little nuts give the MS/HS situation, but people can do what they want. But there are plenty of parents who don't need "the best" elementary school (especially when "best" is measured simply by percentage of white and high SES families). They just want a decent school. I think Maury will still be that for a lot of families now IB, even with the cluster, and then you will get a lot of interest from IB families from the Miner catchment who currently feel like Miner doesn't meet their threshold for "decent."

There are also likely white and high SES families in the surrounding area who would be willing to give the cluster a shot over their IB. Thinking of people IB for Wheatley, in particular -- that's not a bad commute and it's a big upgrade for them because Wheatley is a PK-8 school and very few people want to send their kids there for MS. EH might not be good enough for a lot of Hill East families, but it's a step up from Wheatley.

Nope.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t get why the White Miner families leading the charge here are in favor of the proposal. Do they think the Maury families won’t leave immediately? What Maury do they think they’ll get? So naive. They’d rather bring down all of us than face up to the fact that they should’ve bought in bounds for a better school. Grow up.

I think the assumption/belief that ALL the IB white families will leave is naive. There are white families who send their kids to Payne, Watkins, JO Wilson, Tyler, Van Ness. And those schools don't have Maury's history.

A lot of people just want a decent IB school. Yes, there are families that bought IB for Maury expressly to get the school. I personally think this is a little nuts give the MS/HS situation, but people can do what they want. But there are plenty of parents who don't need "the best" elementary school (especially when "best" is measured simply by percentage of white and high SES families). They just want a decent school. I think Maury will still be that for a lot of families now IB, even with the cluster, and then you will get a lot of interest from IB families from the Miner catchment who currently feel like Miner doesn't meet their threshold for "decent."

There are also likely white and high SES families in the surrounding area who would be willing to give the cluster a shot over their IB. Thinking of people IB for Wheatley, in particular -- that's not a bad commute and it's a big upgrade for them because Wheatley is a PK-8 school and very few people want to send their kids there for MS. EH might not be good enough for a lot of Hill East families, but it's a step up from Wheatley.

There’s no reason to believe that post-cluster Maury will still be “decent” - especially in the view of the people who moved to this area specifically for their kids to attend the current version of Maury, which is a top elementary school in DC. Plus, even if Maury does wind up being “decent” post-cluster, that’s far from certain at this point, and it’s doubtful that Maury families will stick around to find out. The people who moved here to send their kids to Maury aren’t the type of people who are willing to gamble on their children’s education.

This idea is doomed to fail.

Deputy Mayor for Education should be renamed Deputy Mayor for Diversity, because that seems to be the main focus.

The cluster will be better than Miner and likely better than Wheatley and a number of other nearby schools. Even if some families IB for Maury bail, there are plenty of families in the broader neighborhood, including those now IB for Miner, who will be happy to take their place.

People complain about the CH cluster but Peabody remains a relatively in demand ECE program and Watkins is considered better than a number of other options.

It's all about relative quality, especially within the lottery system. You don't need to be the best school, you just need to be better than nearby alternatives.

That’s all true, but it still sounds like wishful thinking that Miner will be marginally improved. The split campus is a net negative for both schools. I don’t know that a family from Wheatley who wouldn’t consider miner before the split would consider them after.