Another article about the magnet programs in Washington Post

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ it will be more like college app process. They will "broaden" the definition of "gifted" or "magnet" and use "holistic" admission process to ensure racial diversity.

There is racial diversity (Asians, Indians, etc.) just not the "correct" kind of racial diversity.

Admission should be based on merit. Period.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ it will be more like college app process. They will "broaden" the definition of "gifted" or "magnet" and use "holistic" admission process to ensure racial diversity.

There is racial diversity (Asians, Indians, etc.) just not the "correct" kind of racial diversity.

Admission should be based on merit. Period.

Indians are Asians.

The diversity is limited.

How do you define merit, and who is proposing to admit not based on merit? MCPS is not proposing this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It also makes no sense that the public school system should have special programs to provide enrichment to the students whose parents have already spent thousands prepping them for the admissions test to the very program. Don't make the argument that MCPS should spend more to keep up with what the haves already do privately. Because the simpler solution to that would be take away the magnets that only the wealthy can afford to prep for and let those families find private schools or settle for their home schools.

Actually that's a separate question, which I've been wondering about. Presumably the families who spend lots of money on test prep for magnet admissions think that they're getting value for their money. But are they actually? How many kids who did test prep and got in would have gotten in without the test prep? How many kids who did test prep and got in would not have gotten in without test prep? How many kids did test prep and didn't get in?

For some yes, for others no. It is their money to spend so why do you care?

Because there is the assumption that the kids of affluent parents are overrepresented in the application magnets because the affluent parents spend money on test prep. But maybe the money spent on test prep has little or no effect on magnet admission.

Isn't it just as likely that affluence is tied to academic achievement, and that kids of such parents have both their genes and their attitude toward the value of academic achievement from a young age?

Hush now... Mentioning genes? Thought crime.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ it will be more like college app process. They will "broaden" the definition of "gifted" or "magnet" and use "holistic" admission process to ensure racial diversity.

There is racial diversity (Asians, Indians, etc.) just not the "correct" kind of racial diversity.

Admission should be based on merit. Period.

Indians are Asians.

The diversity is limited.

How do you define merit, and who is proposing to admit not based on merit? MCPS is not proposing this.

Whose merit? B/c no one gets accepted to a selective academic program based on their own efforts. Not one person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We are probably going to end up suggesting ds take this path from magnet MS - UMD for undergrad to save money for grad school. How has it worked out for your kids and their peers?

it is working out well for our two kids - both received full ride scholarships from umd. DC1 is getting his engineering phd (fully funded) @ "top 5" engineering school and DC2 wants to go to med school so we are saving 529 money for that purpose. DC2 will be able to come out of med school without debt/loan. i am 100% sure they couldn't do it without mcps magnet programs.

so, yeah, it's fine. kids always have to deal with "you worked that hard for umd?" or "you settled with umd?" comments but other than that it's all good. coming out of umd with high gpa is much harder than people think.

Thanks - this is really heartening. Congrats to your kids - they have worked really hard for their success and they sound very pragmatic.
I know the Engineering program has an excellent rep. How are the pre-med majors? Has dc2 been able to do the research or internships that would help him/her apply to med school?

DC2 is still at UMD and has maintained 4.0 GPA so far but it's still too early to count the eggs. DC2 has found a professor and currently supporting him with his research and also working as a TA. Applied for bunch of internships for coming summer but has not heard back yet (but should shortly). UMD pre-med is competitive but I can't complain. No hand-holding but as long as kids try and seek support, the help is there.

Thanks - it sounds like your child has learned to stay focused and to create opportunities for himself. I'm sure getting through SMAC was excellent prep in this regard. Getting into med school is hard even if you have done everything right (as he has) so I understand how you feel. This is dc's goal too and we have spoken about how saving money by going to UMD would be sensible but at the back of my mind I wonder what might happen if he does not get into med school- would we then regret not shelling out the big bucks for the highly rated liberal arts college/univ? You may have a diff. perspective having sent two kids to UMD - it sounds like you are very satisfied with their educational exp. which is saying a lot considering they came from a program like Blair SMAC.

Yeah, I understand but I don't know what to tell you. There are so many variables that can change between now and when your kid applies to med schools. Our approach has been take it one semester at a time - maintain GPA, do research, hospital volunteer work...etc. Do all the things DC can control and let chips fall where they may. I personally don't think it matters much whether you go to UMD or a highly rated liberal art college for med school bound kids. You still have to prove yourself. Good luck to your kid.

[Anonymous]

I think the achievement gap is strongly linked to the deficiencies in MCPS's curriculum. I think it is especially weak in elementary, failing to give kids the foundation they need. (My kids are now in high school, so they were pre 2.0. I would like to think things have changed for the better, but that is not my impression). I think well-educated parents recognize that a student isn't where they need to be and fills in the gaps, either through tutoring or helping out at home. When I was teaching my kids how to hold a pencil, or use a dictionary, or do 3rd grade math without a calculator, I wasn't considering it test prep. I think my kids would have had a problem succeeding in the magnet program without these skills (and others), however.

Originally, I had expected the schools to educate my child and I would only need to help with the occasional homework problem, but that's not what I found. I suspect that other parents may also rely on MCPS to educate their children. Certainly parents who can't speak English, or who are busy working two jobs to put food on the table, or who don't have a solid academic background themselves, may not realize there are gaps they need to supplement, or may be unable to fill the gaps even if they do.

Strengthen elementary education. Get a content-rich curriculum (with textbooks) that has been proven to work. Grade student work for correctness, not just completion. Give students grades that mean something rather than the current I, P, E system that nobody seems to know how to interpret. I think this would be your best shot at decreasing the racial/SES gap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the achievement gap is strongly linked to the deficiencies in MCPS's curriculum. I think it is especially weak in elementary, failing to give kids the foundation they need. (My kids are now in high school, so they were pre 2.0. I would like to think things have changed for the better, but that is not my impression). I think well-educated parents recognize that a student isn't where they need to be and fills in the gaps, either through tutoring or helping out at home. When I was teaching my kids how to hold a pencil, or use a dictionary, or do 3rd grade math without a calculator, I wasn't considering it test prep. I think my kids would have had a problem succeeding in the magnet program without these skills (and others), however.

Originally, I had expected the schools to educate my child and I would only need to help with the occasional homework problem, but that's not what I found. I suspect that other parents may also rely on MCPS to educate their children. Certainly parents who can't speak English, or who are busy working two jobs to put food on the table, or who don't have a solid academic background themselves, may not realize there are gaps they need to supplement, or may be unable to fill the gaps even if they do.

Strengthen elementary education. Get a content-rich curriculum (with textbooks) that has been proven to work. Grade student work for correctness, not just completion. Give students grades that mean something rather than the current I, P, E system that nobody seems to know how to interpret. I think this would be your best shot at decreasing the racial/SES gap.

Don't agree.

Its actually been proven that the achievement gap is primarily due to summer brain drain. Want to close the gap? Extend the school day and school year for lower performing kids. This would require the death of teacher's unions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We are probably going to end up suggesting ds take this path from magnet MS - UMD for undergrad to save money for grad school. How has it worked out for your kids and their peers?

it is working out well for our two kids - both received full ride scholarships from umd. DC1 is getting his engineering phd (fully funded) @ "top 5" engineering school and DC2 wants to go to med school so we are saving 529 money for that purpose. DC2 will be able to come out of med school without debt/loan. i am 100% sure they couldn't do it without mcps magnet programs.

so, yeah, it's fine. kids always have to deal with "you worked that hard for umd?" or "you settled with umd?" comments but other than that it's all good. coming out of umd with high gpa is much harder than people think.

Thanks - this is really heartening. Congrats to your kids - they have worked really hard for their success and they sound very pragmatic.
I know the Engineering program has an excellent rep. How are the pre-med majors? Has dc2 been able to do the research or internships that would help him/her apply to med school?

DC2 is still at UMD and has maintained 4.0 GPA so far but it's still too early to count the eggs. DC2 has found a professor and currently supporting him with his research and also working as a TA. Applied for bunch of internships for coming summer but has not heard back yet (but should shortly). UMD pre-med is competitive but I can't complain. No hand-holding but as long as kids try and seek support, the help is there.

Thanks - it sounds like your child has learned to stay focused and to create opportunities for himself. I'm sure getting through SMAC was excellent prep in this regard. Getting into med school is hard even if you have done everything right (as he has) so I understand how you feel. This is dc's goal too and we have spoken about how saving money by going to UMD would be sensible but at the back of my mind I wonder what might happen if he does not get into med school- would we then regret not shelling out the big bucks for the highly rated liberal arts college/univ? You may have a diff. perspective having sent two kids to UMD - it sounds like you are very satisfied with their educational exp. which is saying a lot considering they came from a program like Blair SMAC.

Yeah, I understand but I don't know what to tell you. There are so many variables that can change between now and when your kid applies to med schools. Our approach has been take it one semester at a time - maintain GPA, do research, hospital volunteer work...etc. Do all the things DC can control and let chips fall where they may. I personally don't think it matters much whether you go to UMD or a highly rated liberal art college for med school bound kids. You still have to prove yourself. Good luck to your kid.

Thanks - when our time comes it will be helpful to know that others have walked in our shoes. I will try and take your advice and counsel my kid to take it one step at a time and to let the chips fall where they may.

[Anonymous]

The data in the report shows the problem is two-fold.

1. Under-represented minorities are not applying. There should be a survey to figure of the kids who scored high on the 2nd grade Raven test about why and whether they don't know about the programs, have low confidence they could get in or whether it's more about economic reasons like they have to take care of siblings or don't want to deal with the commute.

2. They are being accepted at much lower rates than whites and Asians. Is it possible that stronger candidates are not being encouraged to apply? That it's about bias in the test or in teacher or school recommendations? Other bias in the application process?

The thing that worries me is that maybe some highly or profoundly gifted minority students who are poor really aren't "prepared" for the HGC at the time of the application process in the same way as wealthy white or Asian children. They may be just as smart but they may be falling "behind" early on in terms of ambition, expectations, work habits, self-confidence and other factors in K-2. That could mean that we could waste a lot of time trying to fix the application criteria but should be focusing more on identifying these children earlier and giving them more opportunities very early on in their school career.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the achievement gap is strongly linked to the deficiencies in MCPS's curriculum. I think it is especially weak in elementary, failing to give kids the foundation they need. (My kids are now in high school, so they were pre 2.0. I would like to think things have changed for the better, but that is not my impression). I think well-educated parents recognize that a student isn't where they need to be and fills in the gaps, either through tutoring or helping out at home. When I was teaching my kids how to hold a pencil, or use a dictionary, or do 3rd grade math without a calculator, I wasn't considering it test prep. I think my kids would have had a problem succeeding in the magnet program without these skills (and others), however.

Originally, I had expected the schools to educate my child and I would only need to help with the occasional homework problem, but that's not what I found. I suspect that other parents may also rely on MCPS to educate their children. Certainly parents who can't speak English, or who are busy working two jobs to put food on the table, or who don't have a solid academic background themselves, may not realize there are gaps they need to supplement, or may be unable to fill the gaps even if they do.

Strengthen elementary education. Get a content-rich curriculum (with textbooks) that has been proven to work. Grade student work for correctness, not just completion. Give students grades that mean something rather than the current I, P, E system that nobody seems to know how to interpret. I think this would be your best shot at decreasing the racial/SES gap.

I agree with everything you've said, just couldn't be sure how it impacts achievement gap, but these are all things that should be fixed regardless. I believed my job as a parent would be to make sure my kids did their work and I that I could leave the curriculum to the schools. But this hasn't been sufficient every year there are more areas we feel need supplementing and it takes a lot of attention on our part.

[Anonymous]

I don't do any specific supplementation or additional tutoring and I have a child that has had no problems in the magnets. Honestly I don't feel I can judge where the math curriculum might be deficient or what topics might be missing in ss.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The data in the report shows the problem is two-fold.

1. Under-represented minorities are not applying. There should be a survey to figure of the kids who scored high on the 2nd grade Raven test about why and whether they don't know about the programs, have low confidence they could get in or whether it's more about economic reasons like they have to take care of siblings or don't want to deal with the commute.

2. They are being accepted at much lower rates than whites and Asians. Is it possible that stronger candidates are not being encouraged to apply? That it's about bias in the test or in teacher or school recommendations? Other bias in the application process?

The thing that worries me is that maybe some highly or profoundly gifted minority students who are poor really aren't "prepared" for the HGC at the time of the application process in the same way as wealthy white or Asian children. They may be just as smart but they may be falling "behind" early on in terms of ambition, expectations, work habits, self-confidence and other factors in K-2. That could mean that we could waste a lot of time trying to fix the application criteria but should be focusing more on identifying these children earlier and giving them more opportunities very early on in their school career.

I posted about this in another thread about the magnet report. We are AA, and we were contacted about a focus group to discuss why our daughter did not apply to the HGC. I assume we are contacted based other test scores. The focus group never actually happened though. I can't recall now if it was a weather cancellation or what. This was a few years ago. We did not apply due to social reasons and the fact that her third grade teacher was unyielding in her assessment that DD was not among the higher achieving students in the class. DD has scored highly on various standardized tests both before and since third grade. She actually had high MAP-MAP_r scores that year as well, but not high enough for that teacher to be supportive.
What I didn't add in the other thread is that DD was accepted to a MS magnet, but we decided private is a better option.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The data in the report shows the problem is two-fold.

1. Under-represented minorities are not applying. There should be a survey to figure of the kids who scored high on the 2nd grade Raven test about why and whether they don't know about the programs, have low confidence they could get in or whether it's more about economic reasons like they have to take care of siblings or don't want to deal with the commute.

2. They are being accepted at much lower rates than whites and Asians. Is it possible that stronger candidates are not being encouraged to apply? That it's about bias in the test or in teacher or school recommendations? Other bias in the application process?

The thing that worries me is that maybe some highly or profoundly gifted minority students who are poor really aren't "prepared" for the HGC at the time of the application process in the same way as wealthy white or Asian children. They may be just as smart but they may be falling "behind" early on in terms of ambition, expectations, work habits, self-confidence and other factors in K-2. That could mean that we could waste a lot of time trying to fix the application criteria but should be focusing more on identifying these children earlier and giving them more opportunities very early on in their school career.

I posted about this in another thread about the magnet report. We are AA, and we were contacted about a focus group to discuss why our daughter did not apply to the HGC. I assume we are contacted based other test scores. The focus group never actually happened though. I can't recall now if it was a weather cancellation or what. This was a few years ago. We did not apply due to social reasons and the fact that her third grade teacher was unyielding in her assessment that DD was not among the higher achieving students in the class. DD has scored highly on various standardized tests both before and since third grade. She actually had high MAP-MAP_r scores that year as well, but not high enough for that teacher to be supportive.
What I didn't add in the other thread is that DD was accepted to a MS magnet, but we decided private is a better option.

Smart move

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not sure. This is a problem that basically every school district in the country is dealing with, and a district like MCPS with significant racial and economic diversity is just dealing with it in a higher profile manner.

There have been multiple dissertations written on how to identify gifted kids from URM groups, so I'm not going to pretend to know more than the experts. All I'm saying is that we have to identify the correct problem. There are gifted kids in every racial/ethnic/economic group. We know that. We also know that the kids identified as "gifted" in MCPS are not at all representative of the student population. So...how do we make sure that we're not excluding gifted and high achieving kids, who would be successful in the magnet programs, just because they are poor or Black or Latino, or whatever?

But unfortunately there are many people, on DCUM as well as in real life, who think that some racial/ethnic/economic groups have more gifted kids than others. I.e., the reason that whites and Asians are overrepresented at the application magnets and that Hispanics and blacks are underrepresented (using MCPS classifications and MCPS demographics) is that whites and Asians are smarter than Hispanics and blacks. In other words, Hispanics and blacks aren't in the application magnets because they're not qualified to be in the application magnets. Hence the fact-free leap from "MCPS wants to get more Hispanic and black kids to apply" to "MCPS is going to admit unqualified Hispanic and black kids just because they're Hispanic and black!"

Well thank you for generalizing. I do not think any racial group is smarter. However, I do think that when you have a high SES as a result of education, you will make your kids follow the same route for success,

So, it is common to see the children of recent African immigrants in magnet programs vs. the children of FARMS eligible AA. So within the same race, one group is doing better than the other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This quote is from the article:
“It is outrageous,” said Diego Uriburu, co-chair of the Montgomery County Latino Advocacy Coalition. “There are great inequities in terms of access. The majority of our families don’t even know these programs exist.”

Sorry, I don't buy this. I have a second grader in MCPS. I received TWO phone calls about the Parent Questionnaire and BOTH were translated completely in Spanish.

The questionnaire itself was also translated in Spanish.

If your phone number is in the directory, then you also received this message. We're at a Title 1 School, so I completely understand that some people have more barriers than others, but the above quote is just ridiculous.

I don't understand why this man, who is a leader in the MC Latino Advocacy Coalition, isn't making it his job to spread the word about these programs instead of whining that there are Latinos who are unaware of these programs.