New BASIS discussion

[Anonymous]

13:12, what a breath of fresh air--and reality--to the often inane Basis boosterism here on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP, I agree. We aren't talking about rare ability, BASIS isn't trying to teach kids anything extraordinary like how to levitate or move things using telekinesis - this is stuff that most kids, given the right environment, should be able to master.

So very true!

When students are being used as pawns or guina pigs as schools try new methodologies, most kids will be left behind, even if they score "proficient". I am looking at my child's DC CAS reports for the past 2 years and according to the these stats 67% is considered proficient in Reading, and 69% in Math.

Aren't these grades considered "C" in most schools?

Also, I have heard many parents complain that learning somehow shifts to "fun activities" once the DC CAS exams are over in April. This may be alright for 3rd or even 4th grade, but not for the upper grades; introducing grade level concepts once or twice prior to the test is not enough.
If Basis 5th grade teachers maximize instruction and not waste time, there is no reason for 7th graders not to be prepared for algebra.
It's being done in other countries with far fewer resources.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, I agree. We aren't talking about rare ability, BASIS isn't trying to teach kids anything extraordinary like how to levitate or move things using telekinesis - this is stuff that most kids, given the right environment, should be able to master.

I'm new to this discussion but I taught G/T middle school math in a Fairfax school for 5 years before switching to a DC private 2 years ago. Is it true that Basis plans to teach 7th grade algebra to almost all the students? Whose stats are you going on?

At my Fairfax school, 90% of the G/T math kids came out of county elementary G/T programs, or were very bright DCPS transplants, yet we found that only about 1/3 could handle 7th grade algebra. Even fewer at my DC private, where two-thirds of middle school applicants are rejected, take this subject. As you may know, 7th grade algebra puts kids on track for BC (higher level) AP calculus.

How in the heck could Basis effectively teach 7th grade algebra to almost all the kids when we, in one of the country's best and most G/T inclined school systems, where kids are routinely screened for math giftedness from 2nd grade, could not? Not even close. Is nobody asking these questions? It really does sound like some of you have drunk the Koolaid.

I find this totally baffling. Deal is currently teaching 7th grade algebra to a very large percentage of what is still a heterogenous and diverse group of kids, who had no gifted/talented identification or programming at all, and is doing so after having them for only one year. Hell, my 7th grader is about to start and is clearly ready after last year's pre-algebra class, and that was after she learned basically nothing in fifth grade math.

Maybe the private and Fairfax County schools aren't all that after all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, I agree. We aren't talking about rare ability, BASIS isn't trying to teach kids anything extraordinary like how to levitate or move things using telekinesis - this is stuff that most kids, given the right environment, should be able to master.

I'm new to this discussion but I taught G/T middle school math in a Fairfax school for 5 years before switching to a DC private 2 years ago. Is it true that Basis plans to teach 7th grade algebra to almost all the students? Whose stats are you going on?

At my Fairfax school, 90% of the G/T math kids came out of county elementary G/T programs, or were very bright DCPS transplants, yet we found that only about 1/3 could handle 7th grade algebra. Even fewer at my DC private, where two-thirds of middle school applicants are rejected, take this subject. As you may know, 7th grade algebra puts kids on track for BC (higher level) AP calculus.

How in the heck could Basis effectively teach 7th grade algebra to almost all the kids when we, in one of the country's best and most G/T inclined school systems, where kids are routinely screened for math giftedness from 2nd grade, could not? Not even close. Is nobody asking these questions? It really does sound like some of you have drunk the Koolaid.

Yet, PP, this is exactly what BASIS is doing at eight schools in Arizona.

First, there are three math tracks at BASIS. The average BASIS student is on track to study Algebra I & II in seventh and eight grades, respectively, after studying Math "7/8" in fifth and Pre-Algebra in sixth. The above-average BASIS student will study Algebra I & II in sixth and seventh. The exceptional BASIS student will study Algebra I & II in fifth and sixth.

Second, BASIS truly emphasizes math. Math is the only class in which the students get homework every night -- 30 problems a night, IIRC. They are also tested in math every week. The BASIS curriculum is built upon accelerated math.

Third, because of the comprehensive exams, BASIS students are not promoted after sixth grade unless they master math. The lack of social promotion at BASIS after sixth grade creates a huge incentive to meet the high expectations in math.

I'm not sure what the "secret sauce" in the BASIS formula is, but I suspect that it is a combination of high expectations and the lack of social promotion, with subject matter expertise thrown in.

Don't you think, PP, that more than 1/3 of your G&T kids would have mastered Algebra I in the seventh grade had they been told in no uncertain terms that they would be held back if they failed the Algebra I comprehensive exam at the end of the year?

As for your private school kids, PP. The fact that two-thirds of the middle school applicants to your private are rejected is more suggestive of a large number of applicants for a small number of openings rather than a large number of gifted students in attendance.

What sort of credentials are required to teach middle school math to G&T students in Fairfax, PP? Do you hold a graduate degree in math or in a math-heavy major such as economics, physics or computer science?

Which class(es) did you teach at your Fairfax G&T school? Did you teach Algebra I or Algebra II?

Is there any possibility, PP, that your inability to teach Algebra to seventh grade G&T students is more a reflection on your G&T middle school than on the impossibility of realizing the BASIS vision in DC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, I agree. We aren't talking about rare ability, BASIS isn't trying to teach kids anything extraordinary like how to levitate or move things using telekinesis - this is stuff that most kids, given the right environment, should be able to master.

I'm new to this discussion but I taught G/T middle school math in a Fairfax school for 5 years before switching to a DC private 2 years ago. Is it true that Basis plans to teach 7th grade algebra to almost all the students? Whose stats are you going on?

At my Fairfax school, 90% of the G/T math kids came out of county elementary G/T programs, or were very bright DCPS transplants, yet we found that only about 1/3 could handle 7th grade algebra. Even fewer at my DC private, where two-thirds of middle school applicants are rejected, take this subject. As you may know, 7th grade algebra puts kids on track for BC (higher level) AP calculus.

How in the heck could Basis effectively teach 7th grade algebra to almost all the kids when we, in one of the country's best and most G/T inclined school systems, where kids are routinely screened for math giftedness from 2nd grade, could not? Not even close. Is nobody asking these questions? It really does sound like some of you have drunk the Koolaid.

Yet, PP, this is exactly what BASIS is doing at eight schools in Arizona.

First, there are three math tracks at BASIS. The average BASIS student is on track to study Algebra I & II in seventh and eight grades, respectively, after studying Math "7/8" in fifth and Pre-Algebra in sixth. The above-average BASIS student will study Algebra I & II in sixth and seventh. The exceptional BASIS student will study Algebra I & II in fifth and sixth.

Second, BASIS truly emphasizes math. Math is the only class in which the students get homework every night -- 30 problems a night, IIRC. They are also tested in math every week. The BASIS curriculum is built upon accelerated math.

Third, because of the comprehensive exams, BASIS students are not promoted after sixth grade unless they master math. The lack of social promotion at BASIS after sixth grade creates a huge incentive to meet the high expectations in math.

I'm not sure what the "secret sauce" in the BASIS formula is, but I suspect that it is a combination of high expectations and the lack of social promotion, with subject matter expertise thrown in.

Don't you think, PP, that more than 1/3 of your G&T kids would have mastered Algebra I in the seventh grade had they been told in no uncertain terms that they would be held back if they failed the Algebra I comprehensive exam at the end of the year?

As for your private school kids, PP. The fact that two-thirds of the middle school applicants to your private are rejected is more suggestive of a large number of applicants for a small number of openings rather than a large number of gifted students in attendance.

What sort of credentials are required to teach middle school math to G&T students in Fairfax, PP? Do you hold a graduate degree in math or in a math-heavy major such as economics, physics or computer science?

Which class(es) did you teach at your Fairfax G&T school? Did you teach Algebra I or Algebra II?

Is there any possibility, PP, that your inability to teach Algebra to seventh grade G&T students is more a reflection on your G&T middle school than on the impossibility of realizing the BASIS vision in DC?

That's correct - our child is entering 5th grade at BASIS and we can tell you that our understanding is that the vast majority of incoming 5th graders will NOT be taking Algebra I at BASIS. One or two may have placed into Algebra on their prior experience and diagnostics but the remainder will be going into pre-Algebra or Math 7/8, or based on not taking the diagnostic exams at all. Their approach and placement seems quite sensible and pragmatic.

[Anonymous]

So, 19:39, what you seem to be saying is that math is the only subject Basis really cares about. After all, math is the only class where students get homework every night. Therefore, the only goal of Basis is a passing score on math standardized tests.

That doesn't sound like a very effective education plan.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, 19:39, what you seem to be saying is that math is the only subject Basis really cares about. After all, math is the only class where students get homework every night. Therefore, the only goal of Basis is a passing score on math standardized tests.

That doesn't sound like a very effective education plan.

No. Maybe that's your interpretation based on what was posted but it's not correct. Basis students will also be getting an intensive education in English, a couple of years of Latin, Science, et cetera.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

From all I have seen, schools like Basis are bending over backward to keep up their end of the bargain toward providing a high-quality education. They have tutoring sessions and all kinds of other extra resources available to the struggling kids. The more important and more-ignored challenge that should be focused on is for the students, parents and the community to keep up their end of the bargain. If the struggling kids can't keep up it will more likely be because their families won't back them up, won't support them toward getting the extra tutoring and help to catch up, then that is not the fault of Basis.

Frankly, this sounds like it came from a starry-eyed parent (BASIS will get my kid to Harvard) or the BASIS PR dept (We gotta get a bunch of parents to believe this to populate the school, but if it doesn't work it's because of inadequate parents)

This is a fascinating shift from the DCPS philosophy in which the teachers count for everything and the parents for nothing. Left out of the equation are the kids, which apparently are putty in the hands of either their parents or their teachers, depending on which school they attend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

From all I have seen, schools like Basis are bending over backward to keep up their end of the bargain toward providing a high-quality education. They have tutoring sessions and all kinds of other extra resources available to the struggling kids. The more important and more-ignored challenge that should be focused on is for the students, parents and the community to keep up their end of the bargain. If the struggling kids can't keep up it will more likely be because their families won't back them up, won't support them toward getting the extra tutoring and help to catch up, then that is not the fault of Basis.

Frankly, this sounds like it came from a starry-eyed parent (BASIS will get my kid to Harvard) or the BASIS PR dept (We gotta get a bunch of parents to believe this to populate the school, but if it doesn't work it's because of inadequate parents)

This is a fascinating shift from the DCPS philosophy in which the teachers count for everything and the parents for nothing. Left out of the equation are the kids, which apparently are putty in the hands of either their parents or their teachers, depending on which school they attend.

Only bright and hardworking kids will succeed at BASIS.

The tutoring sessions can redress mediocre elementary educations, but not feeble-mindedness or, more likely, laziness.

The work ethic of the BASIS student matters more than the degree of parental support.

The kids who don't want to work that hard in middle and high school will simply leave.

[Anonymous]

Seems like there are a lot of speculative conclusions being drawn about philosophies, but not really anything based on reality. "Basis this" "Basis that" "Starry eyed Basis parents this" and so on.

The reality is that all parties have a role - the school and teachers need to provide a robust and solid curriculum and support, the students need to work hard, the parents need to help and support the students.

There is no free ride. Basis will do their part. But everyone else has to do their part as well. If there are students who don't have a strong work ethic, they won't do well, whether at Basis or anywhere else. If there are parents who aren't supportive of their children, their children will have an uphill battle.

That basic reality applies to any school - but if schools instead just throw the basic aims of high quality education out the window in order to accommodate students who won't work hard and to accommodate parents who won't support the basic social contract of helping their children toward a better future, then nobody's doing their part.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Seems like there are a lot of speculative conclusions being drawn about philosophies, but not really anything based on reality. "Basis this" "Basis that" "Starry eyed Basis parents this" and so on.

The reality is that all parties have a role - the school and teachers need to provide a robust and solid curriculum and support, the students need to work hard, the parents need to help and support the students.

There is no free ride. Basis will do their part. But everyone else has to do their part as well. If there are students who don't have a strong work ethic, they won't do well, whether at Basis or anywhere else. If there are parents who aren't supportive of their children, their children will have an uphill battle.

That basic reality applies to any school - but if schools instead just throw the basic aims of high quality education out the window in order to accommodate students who won't work hard and to accommodate parents who won't support the basic social contract of helping their children toward a better future, then nobody's doing their part.

Again, this leaves out the role of students' innate academic ability, which can vary among siblings in the same stable, supportive, education-oriented family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Again, this leaves out the role of students' innate academic ability, which can vary among siblings in the same stable, supportive, education-oriented family.

Many families have kids in different schools for this very reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Again, this leaves out the role of students' innate academic ability, which can vary among siblings in the same stable, supportive, education-oriented family.

Many families have kids in different schools for this very reason.

Yes, this is the type of thing parents can do. What parents can't do is produce kids bound to succeed at BASIS as long as the parents are supportive enough and the kids work hard enough. And BASIS can't promise it either. No school can.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Again, this leaves out the role of students' innate academic ability, which can vary among siblings in the same stable, supportive, education-oriented family.

Many families have kids in different schools for this very reason.

Yes, this is the type of thing parents can do. What parents can't do is produce kids bound to succeed at BASIS as long as the parents are supportive enough and the kids work hard enough. And BASIS can't promise it either. No school can.

addendum -- Not with open admissions, that is.

[Anonymous]

The BASIS boosters are more concerning than the stated goals and policies of the school itself. The school isn't even open yet, yet the crazy boosters keep talking about it as if it were a successful model in DC. It isn't.

We hope it will be, but it isn't now.