college admissions process so far, financial aid disappointment

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op did you attend college? If so, did you have Pell grants? I’ve discovered that many families use their own 25 year old lens when dealing with the realities of financial aid. There have been several changes and even single parents with moderate incomes qualify for very little aid. The loans they offer to cover the gap do not come cheap. I know someone in their late forties still paying off medical school. With the influx of foreign money and families to the US the competition is even more brutal. Get very serious about four year outcomes when guiding your DC, this is the equivalent of a mortgage without the benefit of a 30 year runway.

MD, we know one or two, but they are rare. The rest of us all paid off within 15 years, many of us with double loans/300k or more (in 2002 dollars) due to MD spouse. We have nice houses and afford private K-12 in the DMV. Most of us had no help from parents as many were pell grant kids ourselves, or have families overseas. If a doctor is in their late 40s and has not paid off med school, they have completely mismanaged their money. Full stop.
Even the lowest paid specialties get 250k a year for full time, and they were over 200k fifteen years ago.

And that’s the difference, you are using the lens of a Pell grant recipient. OPs child probably does not qualify. Imagine paying 200K plus now out of pocket for undergrad and still needing to pay for med school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op did you attend college? If so, did you have Pell grants? I’ve discovered that many families use their own 25 year old lens when dealing with the realities of financial aid. There have been several changes and even single parents with moderate incomes qualify for very little aid. The loans they offer to cover the gap do not come cheap. I know someone in their late forties still paying off medical school. With the influx of foreign money and families to the US the competition is even more brutal. Get very serious about four year outcomes when guiding your DC, this is the equivalent of a mortgage without the benefit of a 30 year runway.

MD, we know one or two, but they are rare. The rest of us all paid off within 15 years, many of us with double loans/300k or more (in 2002 dollars) due to MD spouse. We have nice houses and afford private K-12 in the DMV. Most of us had no help from parents as many were pell grant kids ourselves, or have families overseas. If a doctor is in their late 40s and has not paid off med school, they have completely mismanaged their money. Full stop.
Even the lowest paid specialties get 250k a year for full time, and they were over 200k fifteen years ago.

https://www.practicelink.com/resource-center/physician-student-loans/how-long-does-it-take-on-average-to-pay-off-medical-school-debt/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

It's definitely not a one-size-fits-all for how long it can take to pay off medical school debt. Just because you were done doesn't mean others are also, given that most doctors will take on other kinds of debt (e.g., mortgage, car) while still paying off medical school debt. It's also a function of the specialty and where you work. Many internists and PCPs just aren't pulling in that high of a salary to pay off $200+k in medical school debt while accumulating other debt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the OP’s daughter didn’t score well on the SAT (1500+ at a minimum), med school is not likely to happen. It just isn’t. I know people don’t want to hear that, but it is a pretty accurate proxy for college GPA. GPA and test scores need to be almost perfect for med school.

I just don’t think this is true. Where are you getting this magic 1500+ number? I have some close friends from undergrad who are practicing doctors who definitely did not have that high of an SAT score. I even remember one of them saying they barely squeaked into our undergrad school because their SAT was on the lower end of our school’s range, and now they’re an MD/PhD! You definitely have to be smart enough to score reasonably well on standardized exams but that 1500 line is pulled out of thin air.

DP. Partly concur.
I work in med admissions consulting, was on a top5 med school admissions committee, have a spouse who served recently on a T50 committee. I am a physician as are almost all of my adult friends. Many of us have current premeds of our own and we have advised hundreds.
The SAT needed 15 years ago(ie when the newly minted Residency grads were juniors high school) is irrelevant to now just as my top-1% SAT 37 years ago was not anywhere near 1500 but at the time correlated to my high MCAT score. My ivy did predicted score brackets based on SAT and GPA and once you had your score they gave you a list of med schools to apply to. It does not work that way anymore, premeds can apply wherever they want, but there is information available provided by the ivy and other schools, for those that want to dig in to the data.
As a consultant the past 5 med cycles there is an SAT correlation. SAT scores of around 1440 without extra time correlates to being highly likely to achieve a 510+, the floor score needed to get into the lower to mid ranked MD programs. 1530+ single sitting/no extra time correlates to being able to get 520+, the general target score for applicants who want T20 med and are chasing top merit. Yes, there are students who seemed to get in to top undergrads with lower scores or TO, mid-1400s, who have had to work hard to keep up but have gotten into at least one MD program. There are also students with 1500-ish who should easily be able to perform well compared to peers yet they have poor study habits and it all falls apart in college. The student's drive and discipline matter just as much as SAT, though there is a certain minimum level needed. 1300s SAT with all the drive in the world is going to struggle to get above 500 on the MCAT even after many tries. Med school will not happen unless they choose to go to the Caribbean.

Even if anecdotal, this is useful since you have the experience to back it up. I do wish there were published data on this, so that kids like the OP's could have information needed to make their own decisions, since whether you are pre-med or not may affect your decision to go to one school or another. I agree the SAT seems to be an entirely different thing today from what it was when I took it, especially the verbal section.

I'm curious, how "holistic" is med school admission these days? Are kids with very high GPA and MCAT being overlooked because they do not have the extracurriculars, or because they have mid essays?

[Anonymous]

Do agree OP shouldn't be thinking about med school right now. The low SAT is not helpful but there are other routes to a successful healthcare career and guess what, Towson has pretty good programs.

I did notice OP commented her savings would only be a quarter of the total cost of colleges, so it she was referring to the 90k+ schools, she may only have about 100k in this special fund, and wanted to use some of it for the hypothetical medical school. Would not be surprised if she was budgeting 15k/year from this fund plus what she can pay herself, which probably takes us to the 30k/year instate options.

Not sure how realistic it is to find OOS schools or private colleges who can offer aid to a lowish SAT candidate to bring the costs down to 30k. Maybe if OP's child is an underrepresented minority?

Am surprised she didn't look at UMBC or St. Mary's.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This has been hard. My child has gotten into their safeties (Towson/Salisbury) which they are NOT enthusiastic about. They have also gotten into some of their reach/target schools. Unfortunately, those schools so far are around 60k per year with merit (child has 4.8 gpa). Financial aid is minimal. I don't have an amazing salary, but child has substantial college savings because of extenuating circumstances (not enough to cover 240k though). They go to a decent high school in Montgomery County, and it is sad for them to see their classmates commit to schools they cannot commit to. How do you help your child handle going to a safety so they can graduate college without debt? My child is so disappointed to have to go to school with peers who didn't grind like them and sacrifice time. But they/we just aren't willing or able to pay 50k PLUS per year. They want to go to med school after college as well, so the price of undergrad really matters. Please tell me your stories of going to a safety bc of money and kid thriving.

Start searching external scholarships and have them apply to 10-15 scholarships (small amount caps) to piece together the $60k. Usually the personal essay written for college works as a submission and transcripts and testing can be provided. For most scholarships, that is all you need for application. If you started today, you'd probably be able to add another $20-$30k in scholarship money to whatever amount the schools provided to you. Good luck!!

+1 Do this, OP. I did the research to find 10-15 scholarships that DC might be a serious candidate for. I didn't do the applications for DC, but I did the research and created a prioritized list of scholarships. DC also repurposed the common app essay for many of these applications. I also paid my kid $20/hour to apply for private scholarships to incentivize this, and was stunned when DC was awarded about $60,000 in additional scholarship money. DC ultimately opted for our state flagship instead of a $90K/year private, and these scholarships will free up $60,000 for DC to use for graduate school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do agree OP shouldn't be thinking about med school right now. The low SAT is not helpful but there are other routes to a successful healthcare career and guess what, Towson has pretty good programs.

I did notice OP commented her savings would only be a quarter of the total cost of colleges, so it she was referring to the 90k+ schools, she may only have about 100k in this special fund, and wanted to use some of it for the hypothetical medical school. Would not be surprised if she was budgeting 15k/year from this fund plus what she can pay herself, which probably takes us to the 30k/year instate options.

Not sure how realistic it is to find OOS schools or private colleges who can offer aid to a lowish SAT candidate to bring the costs down to 30k. Maybe if OP's child is an underrepresented minority?

Am surprised she didn't look at UMBC or St. Mary's.

NP here. University of Dayton gave my lowish-SAT candidate (TO though) enough to make the cost $35k, plus a frozen tuition promise, and honors college. She got the highest amt of merit offered, plus if you visited campus, I think they'd give you an extra $2k a year for books. You'd have to deign to lower yourself to attend a school ranked 163rd though (that's sarcasm, btw. I happen to think very highly of the school.)

[Anonymous]

Why would anyone go to Dayton over a full ride at Towson?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This has been hard. My child has gotten into their safeties (Towson/Salisbury) which they are NOT enthusiastic about. They have also gotten into some of their reach/target schools. Unfortunately, those schools so far are around 60k per year with merit (child has 4.8 gpa). Financial aid is minimal. I don't have an amazing salary, but child has substantial college savings because of extenuating circumstances (not enough to cover 240k though). They go to a decent high school in Montgomery County, and it is sad for them to see their classmates commit to schools they cannot commit to. How do you help your child handle going to a safety so they can graduate college without debt? My child is so disappointed to have to go to school with peers who didn't grind like them and sacrifice time. But they/we just aren't willing or able to pay 50k PLUS per year. They want to go to med school after college as well, so the price of undergrad really matters. Please tell me your stories of going to a safety bc of money and kid thriving.

Start searching external scholarships and have them apply to 10-15 scholarships (small amount caps) to piece together the $60k. Usually the personal essay written for college works as a submission and transcripts and testing can be provided. For most scholarships, that is all you need for application. If you started today, you'd probably be able to add another $20-$30k in scholarship money to whatever amount the schools provided to you. Good luck!!

+1 Do this, OP. I did the research to find 10-15 scholarships that DC might be a serious candidate for. I didn't do the applications for DC, but I did the research and created a prioritized list of scholarships. DC also repurposed the common app essay for many of these applications. I also paid my kid $20/hour to apply for private scholarships to incentivize this, and was stunned when DC was awarded about $60,000 in additional scholarship money. DC ultimately opted for our state flagship instead of a $90K/year private, and these scholarships will free up $60,000 for DC to use for graduate school.

OP has enough from family money to completely pay for undergrad through medical school but doesn't want to cover more than $40k a year for undergrad. "Doesn't want" not "can't..."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why would anyone go to Dayton over a full ride at Towson?

I don't see mention of a full ride to Towson but in any case, I was responding to the PP who said finding OOS or private schools with enough aid to be around $30k was tough. I don't disagree with them but was providing one data point.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What is the child's exact substantial college savings and what are the extenuating circumstances related to how the savings came to be? Is the savings in a 529 and if not, what kind of plan is it in?

OP?

Not a specific plan. Family. But I don't make the income relative to the amount there is.

I don't understand. So this is a family gift that will pay for post high school education, not in a 529 and not with a limit, but you also don't think it is limitless?

Let’s be gentle. OP only mentions her salary. The college funds her kid has might be payout from life insurance after death if a parent, for example.

Sounds like there is more than enough with the family gift but [bOP doesn't want to say the amount because it is more than most have AND it will cover all the way through medical school so long as undergrad is on the cheaper side. It isn't even in a 529 which tells me it is not finite. So who cares what your income is? Who cares how your income relates to the amount of money your family is setting aside. It seems your kid can afford any undergrad he wants but can't afford without debt all post high school education. My guess is that the money wasn't put into a 529 to likely try and game the financial aid system so undergrad would be supplemented by the school reducing the costs (i.e. no need to disclose the 529 balance but the money is nevertheless there/available).

Sounds like you then had kid apply to schools and while he "can" afford to go, it isn't advisable if you want education to be fully family funded. So your idea (to try and get financial aid for free) didn't work even though it was worth a shot to you. I don't think people are going to be sympathetic...your kid is fine regardless what is selected.

You are so wrong about my specific family money scenario, and I don't owe a public message board an explanation. But there is no gaming of anything, everything is being done by the books. I never asked for sympathy, I asked for input about other children who didn't go to their number one schools because they couldn't, and how their experience was. Again, not looking for anything other than stories and advice.

Wrong message board if you're looking for kindness. The uptight, judgmental hags on here are not capable of it.

It's increasingly clear that "be kind" = enabling delusions and dishonesty.

[/b]OP is getting flak because she refuses, over and over again, to let us know two critical pieces of information: child's SATs and her actual financial position. This is an anonymous SAT score. Child is one of 156,000 MCPS students. He or she will not have their identity revealed by mere mention of those two key information.

There are many experienced parents posting on here who can offer great advice. But we have to work with what we are told, and people withholding important details and then complaining about nastiness aren't going to get the useful advice they might otherwise have.

Will say I am forming a better impression of OP's kid and it does tell me Towson is probably a good outcome. Higher grades, lower SAT scores still means a good work ethic and Towson will have plenty of similar peers. Yes, there are other schools but you're going to have to pay for those. And that's the reality.

+1. This thread has been a total waste of time for everyone.

I would guess that OP's kids have college savings from grandparents or some other relative, but that since those are not funds to be repeated, they have termed them "exceptional."

[Anonymous]

Posting again since I’m not sure where mine went. OP only mentions her salary. It’s possible the exceptional limited funds are life insurance payout after death of the child’s other parent. Let’s not presume it’s a trust or gift and judge her.

[Anonymous]

My kids knew they had to go to the school that offered the cheapest price. We even asked for more. They will thank themselves when they are loan free for life!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Posting again since I’m not sure where mine went. OP only mentions her salary. It’s possible the exceptional limited funds are life insurance payout after death of the child’s other parent. Let’s not presume it’s a trust or gift and judge her.

She said it is from family, that’s not insurance. She said it is family money, but not in a 529, which means it isn’t listed when they ask for money.

But yeah, I judge her since she refuses to say the amount.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This has been hard. My child has gotten into their safeties (Towson/Salisbury) which they are NOT enthusiastic about. They have also gotten into some of their reach/target schools. Unfortunately, those schools so far are around 60k per year with merit (child has 4.8 gpa). Financial aid is minimal. I don't have an amazing salary, but child has substantial college savings because of extenuating circumstances (not enough to cover 240k though). They go to a decent high school in Montgomery County, and it is sad for them to see their classmates commit to schools they cannot commit to. How do you help your child handle going to a safety so they can graduate college without debt? My child is so disappointed to have to go to school with peers who didn't grind like them and sacrifice time. But they/we just aren't willing or able to pay 50k PLUS per year. They want to go to med school after college as well, so the price of undergrad really matters. Please tell me your stories of going to a safety bc of money and kid thriving.

-the majority of medical schools in the top 50 have merit money, and about 1/3 have need based aid, making them overall cheaper on average than PA or stem-masters programs, with double the salary over PA and triple what you can find with a typical stem masters.

-your student will be much more likely to get into med school in the first place if they go to a school where a significant portion gets into med school every year. This could be Case or could be an ivy, but should be the highest-level school they can succeed in, with a medical school on or near campus. Towson and the like do not have many students of the caliber to be serious applicants to medical school. Yours will not fit in to the culture based on your description.

This unsourced assertion can verified by contacting the school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Posting again since I’m not sure where mine went. OP only mentions her salary. It’s possible the exceptional limited funds are life insurance payout after death of the child’s other parent. Let’s not presume it’s a trust or gift and judge her.

It is ridiculous she won’t bar the amount of money or the SAT score on an anonymous board. And then she gets indignant about it. Why should we help?