America is in an economic tailspin. Why does life feel so normal?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is proof of the DCUM bubble you live in where $200K HHI is not “rich” to most people.

IT FEELS NORMAL BECAUSE YOU ARE EATING CAKE, MARIE ANTOINETTE. Maybe if you bought your homes where you would see the “poors” you would understand the danger of a larger and more impoverished class of citizens that have no job to go to, or risk dying if they do.

I have relatives who live all over the country who make well less than 200K and they report the same thing, that they don't know people who are laid off and people are still spending as normal. This isn't just a DC area (or even UMC) phenomena.

They are probably UMC for their area if they make $90k.

This is why my family and DH’s family have no idea how much we make. Technically it’s public record, but they can’t contextualize it. What little they do know just confuses them as to why we live in a 900 sq foot apartment and drive older used vehicles.

90k for a family of four isn't upper middle class anywhere in the U.S.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will add to my comment above that "poverty is not a character flew".

All you people with bootstraps to spare, who were gifted bootstraps from your parents, who don't know anyone without bootstraps and boots . . . you have obviously never been on public assistance or known anyone who has.

No one gets public assistance for fun. It's not easy. Cash welfare is not really a thing anymore since Clinton passed welfare reform. No one is rolling up to the food pantry in their luxury SUV for fun, because they had an extra hour in their day, because they love eating cheap processed food, because they would rather be tsk tsk'ed by some "nice" Christian ladies than spend $10 at Safeway. if you think someone needs to dress in rags and take the bus an hour to beg for some Aldi food the people donating wouldn't feed their own families and some dollar store toys and school suppliers, you are not a kind person and should find a different place to volunteer.

Waiting lists for Section 8 housing are long.
Applications to get free cable or get help with your heating bills are long and require cooperation from lazy ass landlords and may require you to jump through hoops to prove you are worthy.
The process to get and keep SNAP or WIC is not easy and if you do have WIC, you may have to endure the humiliation of your case worker telling you that according to her chart your baby is too fat for the whole milk your pediatrician recommends and you will only get 2%. Or generic formula that makes your baby spit up. God forbid you have a SNAP EBT card and you buy something the Karen behind you in line doesn't think is necessary. God forbid poor people have some stability or even worse - joy in their lives like nice nails that their sister the nail tech did on her day off to practice a new technique or a reliable car borrowed from a neighbor or phone that works, a gift from your boss so he can reach you.

Being poor sucked before Covid and will sucks more now.
Your life seems normal because you don't know any poor people. The people in your life who are silently suffering right now have the credit to keep up appearances - at least for a while. You may find out in 6-12 months that some people were closer to the edge than you imagined. You might find out in 10-30 years when people you know don't have money to pay for their kids' college or to retire.

This is a narrative that’s been formed over the years and I used to buy into it.

Now we live in Alexandria City where welfare is a way of life for generations. Literally grandma got the public housing and now her grandkids and great grand Kids live with her and her own kids live in the same complex with their children and grand children

Did you know that public housing doesn’t kick you out even when a household has an income of over $100K ?

The base salary of public housing plus snap plus child care subsidies plus medical care subsidies often is close to $60K or more. So imagine if all your basic needs are met and any income you make is now disposable. You save nothing because if you did than you would not have money for eating out, getting your hair and nails done, upgrading your phone, buying designer clothes and so on

That’s what really, truly happens. Whatever inconvenience it takes to maintain that standard set of subsidies that keeps all basic needs met is totally worth it.

This. Only 50% of Americans pay taxes. The 50% that pay taxes are financially supporting other households. The reality is "reparations" have existed on a yearly basis
in the US since the 1960s.

You are a liar. Stop spreading misinformation.

44% of Americans do not pay Federal Taxes. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/81-million-americans-wont-pay-any-federal-income-taxes-this-year-heres-why-2018-04-16

We need to expand the tax base. Too much meals on wheels coming out of schools, free laptops to "poor" families. They need some skin in the game via contributing to our tax system so that they appreciate the sacrifice being made by taxpayers

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What amazes me, is that it seems as if even the people who you would think would be deeply affected don't seem to be. My daughter has a good friend whose father owns a restaurant franchise (mom doesn't work). The restaurant was closed for months, and is now open at reduced capacity. Yet the family has taken two vacations this year, one to Hawaii and they are currently in Mexico. Who knows, maybe they have family money, but it seems like I see a lot of these cases, where people work in industries that have been affected, but they don't seem to be suffering personally.

They might have considerable savings.
They might be staying with friends or family so they don’t have hotel and meal costs.
They might have a great deal especially if they have industry contacts from providing catering.
They might be home swapping. A friend has done this for years. She even went to 5 countries in North Africa and the Middle East in a single year that way.

I know for a fact that they are staying in resorts. Yes, the other points could be true. But the point is, I just don't know ANYONE who has been obviously affected, even those who seem as if they should be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stimulus checks
Printing more money
We are too early into the crisis

This. Both my neighbor and I were at the same grocery store this morning and we commented to each other how surprisingly busy it was. I am worried about what is going to happen this fall and winter when peoples' money starts running out and they don't have room on the credit cards any more. I think we're in for a really hard crash.

We’re buying now because we won’t Oct-probably April. I’m going to let this burn through and that means I need food, OTC meds, clothing, and household goods on hand before 10/1 at the latest. My hank account shows a crazy amount of spending right now, but I’ll just save for about 5 months after that.

just curious (NP here) - why are you spending now to save later? Do you think we’re headed for another lockdown? Or are you worried your finances will change this winter?

Lockdown. I think we’re headed to a big spike in coronavirus. I expect things will shut back down again. Due to some family health issues, all of the shopping fell on me. It was like a dystopian treasure hunt. I hated it. Eventually, I figured out that if I was at a certain Target when they opened at 8, I could probably get wipes and if I drove into a particular neighborhood, one of their three grocery stores was likely to have eggs. It was so time consuming. And we had bad luck with Instacart. I will not have the same leeway at work this year so I can’t expect to drive to five stores looking for eggs, soap, or tp. I don’t trust the supply chain and I won’t see my family do without.

I’m buying about six months worth of certain items: First aid items, OTC meds, batteries, liquor, soap, shampoo, dental care items, etc. My kids will need winter boots and gloves. We’re buying the boots and gloves now. I also bought them some basic school supplies in case school reopens in February (doubtful) and the stores are not carrying 2-pocket poly folders in 7 different colors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will add to my comment above that "poverty is not a character flew".

All you people with bootstraps to spare, who were gifted bootstraps from your parents, who don't know anyone without bootstraps and boots . . . you have obviously never been on public assistance or known anyone who has.

No one gets public assistance for fun. It's not easy. Cash welfare is not really a thing anymore since Clinton passed welfare reform. No one is rolling up to the food pantry in their luxury SUV for fun, because they had an extra hour in their day, because they love eating cheap processed food, because they would rather be tsk tsk'ed by some "nice" Christian ladies than spend $10 at Safeway. if you think someone needs to dress in rags and take the bus an hour to beg for some Aldi food the people donating wouldn't feed their own families and some dollar store toys and school suppliers, you are not a kind person and should find a different place to volunteer.

Waiting lists for Section 8 housing are long.
Applications to get free cable or get help with your heating bills are long and require cooperation from lazy ass landlords and may require you to jump through hoops to prove you are worthy.
The process to get and keep SNAP or WIC is not easy and if you do have WIC, you may have to endure the humiliation of your case worker telling you that according to her chart your baby is too fat for the whole milk your pediatrician recommends and you will only get 2%. Or generic formula that makes your baby spit up. God forbid you have a SNAP EBT card and you buy something the Karen behind you in line doesn't think is necessary. God forbid poor people have some stability or even worse - joy in their lives like nice nails that their sister the nail tech did on her day off to practice a new technique or a reliable car borrowed from a neighbor or phone that works, a gift from your boss so he can reach you.

Being poor sucked before Covid and will sucks more now.
Your life seems normal because you don't know any poor people. The people in your life who are silently suffering right now have the credit to keep up appearances - at least for a while. You may find out in 6-12 months that some people were closer to the edge than you imagined. You might find out in 10-30 years when people you know don't have money to pay for their kids' college or to retire.

This is a narrative that’s been formed over the years and I used to buy into it.

Now we live in Alexandria City where welfare is a way of life for generations. Literally grandma got the public housing and now her grandkids and great grand Kids live with her and her own kids live in the same complex with their children and grand children

Did you know that public housing doesn’t kick you out even when a household has an income of over $100K ?

The base salary of public housing plus snap plus child care subsidies plus medical care subsidies often is close to $60K or more. So imagine if all your basic needs are met and any income you make is now disposable. You save nothing because if you did than you would not have money for eating out, getting your hair and nails done, upgrading your phone, buying designer clothes and so on

That’s what really, truly happens. Whatever inconvenience it takes to maintain that standard set of subsidies that keeps all basic needs met is totally worth it.

This. Only 50% of Americans pay taxes. The 50% that pay taxes are financially supporting other households. The reality is "reparations" have existed on a yearly basis
in the US since the 1960s.

You are a liar. Stop spreading misinformation.

44% of Americans do not pay Federal Taxes. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/81-million-americans-wont-pay-any-federal-income-taxes-this-year-heres-why-2018-04-16

We need to expand the tax base. Too much meals on wheels coming out of schools, free laptops to "poor" families. They need some skin in the game via contributing to our tax system so that they appreciate the sacrifice being made by taxpayers

You have never been poor obviously. And keep in mind that you’ll hurt a lot of disabled people and veterans that way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is proof of the DCUM bubble you live in where $200K HHI is not “rich” to most people.

IT FEELS NORMAL BECAUSE YOU ARE EATING CAKE, MARIE ANTOINETTE. Maybe if you bought your homes where you would see the “poors” you would understand the danger of a larger and more impoverished class of citizens that have no job to go to, or risk dying if they do.

I have relatives who live all over the country who make well less than 200K and they report the same thing, that they don't know people who are laid off and people are still spending as normal. This isn't just a DC area (or even UMC) phenomena.

They are probably UMC for their area if they make $90k.

This is why my family and DH’s family have no idea how much we make. Technically it’s public record, but they can’t contextualize it. What little they do know just confuses them as to why we live in a 900 sq foot apartment and drive older used vehicles.

90k for a family of four isn't upper middle class anywhere in the U.S.

In Allegheny Co, the poorest county in Maryland, the typical household earns $42,771. $90k would make you very well off there. Obviously there are people making $200k to millions per year with vacation homes there, but among full-time residents, the $90kers are UMC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is very strange. The city where I live was first to suffer, last to recover in the great recession. My job is stable for now, but I do worry about longterm unemployment in the future.

Detroit?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There's so much money floating around due to the Dept. of Treasury that the stock market is doing really well.

My husband works in finance and made a 300k half year bonus (bonus is paid out in 2 parts, half in July, half in Feb). I was expecting it to be like 50k, after the plunge last spring, lol.

The rich get richer and they avert their eyes and claim the poor are guilty of being poor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What amazes me, is that it seems as if even the people who you would think would be deeply affected don't seem to be. My daughter has a good friend whose father owns a restaurant franchise (mom doesn't work). The restaurant was closed for months, and is now open at reduced capacity. Yet the family has taken two vacations this year, one to Hawaii and they are currently in Mexico. Who knows, maybe they have family money, but it seems like I see a lot of these cases, where people work in industries that have been affected, but they don't seem to be suffering personally.

They might have considerable savings.
They might be staying with friends or family so they don’t have hotel and meal costs.
They might have a great deal especially if they have industry contacts from providing catering.
They might be home swapping. A friend has done this for years. She even went to 5 countries in North Africa and the Middle East in a single year that way.

I know for a fact that they are staying in resorts. Yes, the other points could be true. But the point is, I just don't know ANYONE who has been obviously affected, even those who seem as if they should be.

Don’t use one family as a measure. We know plenty deeply affected and PPP loans utilized exactly as intended and which won’t last forever. Lives and health do depend on jobs and the economy. People act they are separate.

[Anonymous]

Was much of this thread deleted? If so, why?

[Anonymous]

My college DD works at a popular grocery store. They normally donate unsellable food to a local food bank every day. Over the past few months and particularly the past month or 2, the food bank has been desperate for as much as possible and asking for anything potentially usable. She also volunteers through an org at her university to do food deliveries to other food banks. She’s seen the lines and knows the urgency.

This is in a fairly wealthy and highly educated college town.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What amazes me, is that it seems as if even the people who you would think would be deeply affected don't seem to be. My daughter has a good friend whose father owns a restaurant franchise (mom doesn't work). The restaurant was closed for months, and is now open at reduced capacity. Yet the family has taken two vacations this year, one to Hawaii and they are currently in Mexico. Who knows, maybe they have family money, but it seems like I see a lot of these cases, where people work in industries that have been affected, but they don't seem to be suffering personally.

They might have considerable savings.
They might be staying with friends or family so they don’t have hotel and meal costs.
They might have a great deal especially if they have industry contacts from providing catering.
They might be home swapping. A friend has done this for years. She even went to 5 countries in North Africa and the Middle East in a single year that way.

I know for a fact that they are staying in resorts. Yes, the other points could be true. But the point is, I just don't know ANYONE who has been obviously affected, even those who seem as if they should be.

Don’t use one family as a measure. We know plenty deeply affected and PPP loans utilized exactly as intended and which won’t last forever. Lives and health do depend on jobs and the economy. People act they are separate.

+1
I know three families affected here. So what if you don’t? Doesn’t mean it’s not true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It feels normal because about 40% of Americans are doing ok. It's the other 60% that we have to worry about. That's why I favor UBI (temporary at first, but later extended) and universal health care.

I was listening to NPR this morning and they were interviewing Senator Lankford from OK. The conservative view on this crisis is that we can't help everyone and we shouldn't try. He pretty much said that. So my best advice is to vote. It's time to renew the New Deal and make it more comprehensive.

The Democratic view: destroy the economy, force tens of millions to lose their jobs, all just to try to save an elderly frail person's life.

Is that fair?

You tell me.

You sound like a simpleton. Just like your president.

How is PP being a simpleton? It's very reasonable to question whether it's worth it.

Well for starters, it’s not just elderly people. Do you even read the news?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is proof of the DCUM bubble you live in where $200K HHI is not “rich” to most people.

IT FEELS NORMAL BECAUSE YOU ARE EATING CAKE, MARIE ANTOINETTE. Maybe if you bought your homes where you would see the “poors” you would understand the danger of a larger and more impoverished class of citizens that have no job to go to, or risk dying if they do.

I have relatives who live all over the country who make well less than 200K and they report the same thing, that they don't know people who are laid off and people are still spending as normal. This isn't just a DC area (or even UMC) phenomena.

They are probably UMC for their area if they make $90k.

This is why my family and DH’s family have no idea how much we make. Technically it’s public record, but they can’t contextualize it. What little they do know just confuses them as to why we live in a 900 sq foot apartment and drive older used vehicles.

90k for a family of four isn't upper middle class anywhere in the U.S.

It is weathy in many areas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is proof of the DCUM bubble you live in where $200K HHI is not “rich” to most people.

IT FEELS NORMAL BECAUSE YOU ARE EATING CAKE, MARIE ANTOINETTE. Maybe if you bought your homes where you would see the “poors” you would understand the danger of a larger and more impoverished class of citizens that have no job to go to, or risk dying if they do.

I have relatives who live all over the country who make well less than 200K and they report the same thing, that they don't know people who are laid off and people are still spending as normal. This isn't just a DC area (or even UMC) phenomena.

They are probably UMC for their area if they make $90k.

This is why my family and DH’s family have no idea how much we make. Technically it’s public record, but they can’t contextualize it. What little they do know just confuses them as to why we live in a 900 sq foot apartment and drive older used vehicles.

90k for a family of four isn't upper middle class anywhere in the U.S.

In Allegheny Co, the poorest county in Maryland, the typical household earns $42,771. $90k would make you very well off there. Obviously there are people making $200k to millions per year with vacation homes there, but among full-time residents, the $90kers are UMC.

$90,000 family income would be big money in many Maryland counties.