Changes to grading for all MCPS high school students

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be fair, the purpose of grading is to measure how well a student understands the material and how well they can complete the skill under a time constraint. For the teacher, grading should be looked at individually and as a whole. If the entire class is missing one question or section then the teacher needs to course correction as they didn’t word or present the material adequately. For the student, grading is part of the learning cycle where they learn more by seeing what they got wrong, understanding why and should be in a position to course correction and do better the next time.

Of course none of this happens because students drop assignments and tests into a black box where the teacher doesn’t return them until the day before quarter ends or much later or maybe never. Tests may be quickly reviewed in class but they are snatched back so the teacher isn’t bothered to create more than one test. This deprives students of an excellent end of year study guide but god forbid the teacher do anything pedagogical.

This is all true but I wouldn’t frame it as a knock on the teachers. McPS doesn’t give them the time to give the feedback or get grading done timely. Also, in college if a prof realizes a test was bad because one or more questions were poorly phrased or too hard, they can adjust the grades or give extra credit or something. I remember in my HS physics cclass, the teacher gave an army assignment that was impossible and almost everyone failed it, so the teacher assigned an additional assignment as “extra credit” to account for it. McPS doesn’t allow extra credit or grading on a carve. I do think people are gojng to complain more about unfair grading or violations of the grading policy — that currently happens a lot but parents let it go because it so rarely makes a difference under the current grading policy.

Good news! The new policy requires teachers to return graded school work within 10 school days.

DP. And I assume the county isn’t giving teachers any additional time to get this done, right? Just more demands on teachers’ home lives?

DP. It will just change the variety of assessments and amount of individualized feedback I give. My course is almost exclusively writing currently and I provide unique comments to every student. Next year will be 45% quizzes and written assignments will get canned comments.

My kids have never received feedback on writing assignments. Just random scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I disagree with not rounding X9.5 ti 10. Isn’t it a very basic rule of math?

I also do not get why all four grading periods are equal. This is still screwy as was the previous way. Why not simply count all grades earned within the semester toward the final grade?

NP here.

If someone wishes to have a strict view of "at least X%", then "at least X%" means you have to be at X.0, Not (X-0.5). For example, an A is at least 90% would mean an A is at least 90.0, not 89.5.

I am fine with that, quite honestly. Not all college profs allow 0.5 bump.

I am 51 years old and had a numerical grading system. Even in the olden days, when someone was ended up with an 89.5, it was rounded to a 90. Of all of MCPS’s policies, rounding is the least controversial/probelmatic.

It's doesn't really matter one way or the other what the cut off is, but there's no argument in favor of rounding a cutoff. If you want the cutoff to be 89.5, make the cut off 89.5, and say it is 89.5! Don't make the cutoff 89.5 but lie and say it's 90.

Anyone who doesn't understand this doesn't deserve a high school diploma, and probably was educated in MCPS.

Schools have rounded for a long, long time. I’m sorry basic rules of rounding escaped you.

Please explain the basic rules of rounding that you think apply here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems that OP is the only one opposed, lol. I’m strongly for these immediate changes.

What grade is your kid in? I’m fine with this for my 7th grader when she starts HS, but not okay with it for my 10th grader. It’s just not fair to these kids to change the rule on how semester grades are calculated halfway through HS.

But isn't it better to change it now to prepare them for college? Otherwise they will just get thrown into college without experience with real grading.

Real grading? I thought it was about real leaning.

Please tell me how real learning can happen when little Johnny doesn’t show up for 10 weeks because he knows he got a C during MP3…

If grades weren’t important for learning, we wouldn’t have them. But they absolutely are necessary, at least for students whose minds are not fully developed, and would not be intrinsically motivated to learn algebraic equations. Also, teachers cannot adequately measure a students learning without grades. If you would like to keep living in La La Land, go ahead…

I am absolutely baffled that people here care about the kid who doesn’t show up for 10 weeks and gets a C. What does that have to do with my kid? Teachers keep moving the lessons along. Some of you are absolutely nuts. Set standards for your own kid.

Um, excuse me, but your privilege is showing.

You are forgetting that us teachers have to deal with ALL kids. We can’t just pick and choose. When the kid who is absent for 10 weeks and randomly shows up one day, we are the ones who have to try to catch them up. We can’t just move the lessons along—so yeah that disruptive kid also affects your kid.

Also—these kids who skip are not just staying home. They are wandering the halls in droves and causing disruptions for all classes and students. Hall sweeps? We are told they don’t work and admin refuses. ISS? Now that’s not “equitable” and is no longer allowed.

What other recourse do we have to keep these kids engaged and attending if they won’t implement an attendance policy or bring back truancy court.

Must be nice to sit in your little house on the hill and not have to worry about what we deal with DAILY in the classroom. I have kids right now who have missed a good 75% of the quarter and admin is breathing down my neck to have me give them make-up work to pass.

Some stakeholders, other than privilege parents, have a lot more to worry about. That’s not nuts that doing our f-ing job.

I’m not that poster and I totally feel for the teachers here but let’s not pretend that the kids who are ditching class and roaming the hall all day care about their grades. I just don’t think it will move the needle for them.

It used to back when I first started teaching. We had the E-3 and could fail a kid if they stopped coming but got a C the other marking period. Most of the time it was an empty threat but it got kids coming to class.

Also, during in person summer school they have an attendance policy. And guess what… the kids didn’t skip. It’s almost like consequences change behavior 🤔 also when you set the bar, kids will meet it. Posters who are saying it will do nothing set the kids up for failure

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If grades weren’t important for learning, we wouldn’t have them. But they absolutely are necessary, at least for students whose minds are not fully developed, and would not be intrinsically motivated to learn algebraic equations. Also, teachers cannot adequately measure a students learning without grades. If you would like to keep living in La La Land, go ahead…

I love this response! It really demonstrates super well how the most vehement opinions are often based on false assumptions and cognitive biases:

1. Research consistently shows that grades are not necessary for learning and may in fact undermine it. See Self-Determination Theory (external rewards (ike grades can actually crowd out intrinsic motivation); and mastery vs performance orientation (Dweck) - emphasis on performance comes at expense of mastery.

For younger and less motivated learners, research consistently shows that clear goals, support, and feedback work better than letter grades.

2. *Feedback* is necessary; grades are not. More than thirty years of research demonstrate that adding a grade to feedback actually reduces the effect of the feedback.

tl;dr The opposite of what you said is true

lol

Cool. Now how does a college know if a student is ready to access college level material?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I had a tougher grading scale than my kids do, I had semester and final exams, there was no such thing as retakes, and there was no 50% rule — but teachers could offer extra credit, I didn’t have to take math my senior year, I had 2-3 study halls as a senior, I didn’t need to take tons of APs to get into college, there was no SSL requirement, no one I knew did any serious prepping for the SAT. I don’t remember feeling like my college app essay was a make-or-break part of the application process. I wasn’t even a slacker; I was valedictorian and a National Merit Scholar and attended college on a full tuition scholarship.


Now you have to have an unweighted 4.0, a 1500+ SAT, take 12 APs, be a competitive athlete at the state level, have 300 documented SSL hours, have an interesting hobby, a leadership position, and a compelling life story to get into a top college.

I don’t object to bringing back a tougher grading scale and final exams, but something has to give. It’s not fair to subject today’s students to all of the most stringent requirements from the last 40 years. No other generation has had the proposed grading scale + final exams + SSL requirement + current course requirements + no study halls + such competitive college admissions.

I had all of these and a higher cutoff for A grade. Competitive college admissions is a red herring. Your child isn’t required to compete for admission to Harvard. Lowering demands won’t make it easier for your child to get in. The number of seats isn’t changing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This isn't something the BOE votes on. It's a regulation, not a policy, so it's up to Taylor and CO to rewrite it.

True, but when they informed the BOE about it maybe a month ago, and said they planned to do a phased roll-out, the BOE pushed back. That's why it's 6-12 now.

Really unhappy with the BOE on this one. My rising current high schooler is in tears over the anticipated additional stress next year. She could manage with the one quarter on, next quarter relax pace, but constant pressure to perform all year will be felt. Especially when there are 4 tests on the same day. Ugh, Ugh, Ugh

I'm sorry she and others in this situation are stressed, but you can't do one on/one off in college. This is good preparation for what she (and others) will face after MCPS.

I disagree. Part of academic success in college is strategic time management and prioritization of tasks, figuring out where you can cut corners without sacrificing performance when too many things are due at the same time. Figuring out the most advantageous way to work within given parameters is an important skill in the workplace, as well. The same kids who have figured out how to game their high school grading system will figure out how to succeed in college and in the office. They’ll work hard but they’ll also work smarter and have a decent work/life balance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems that OP is the only one opposed, lol. I’m strongly for these immediate changes.

What grade is your kid in? I’m fine with this for my 7th grader when she starts HS, but not okay with it for my 10th grader. It’s just not fair to these kids to change the rule on how semester grades are calculated halfway through HS.

But isn't it better to change it now to prepare them for college? Otherwise they will just get thrown into college without experience with real grading.

Real grading? I thought it was about real leaning.

Please tell me how real learning can happen when little Johnny doesn’t show up for 10 weeks because he knows he got a C during MP3…

If grades weren’t important for learning, we wouldn’t have them. But they absolutely are necessary, at least for students whose minds are not fully developed, and would not be intrinsically motivated to learn algebraic equations. Also, teachers cannot adequately measure a students learning without grades. If you would like to keep living in La La Land, go ahead…

I am absolutely baffled that people here care about the kid who doesn’t show up for 10 weeks and gets a C. What does that have to do with my kid? Teachers keep moving the lessons along. Some of you are absolutely nuts. Set standards for your own kid.

Um, excuse me, but your privilege is showing.

You are forgetting that us teachers have to deal with ALL kids. We can’t just pick and choose. When the kid who is absent for 10 weeks and randomly shows up one day, we are the ones who have to try to catch them up. We can’t just move the lessons along—so yeah that disruptive kid also affects your kid.

Also—these kids who skip are not just staying home. They are wandering the halls in droves and causing disruptions for all classes and students. Hall sweeps? We are told they don’t work and admin refuses. ISS? Now that’s not “equitable” and is no longer allowed.

What other recourse do we have to keep these kids engaged and attending if they won’t implement an attendance policy or bring back truancy court.

Must be nice to sit in your little house on the hill and not have to worry about what we deal with DAILY in the classroom. I have kids right now who have missed a good 75% of the quarter and admin is breathing down my neck to have me give them make-up work to pass.

Some stakeholders, other than privilege parents, have a lot more to worry about. That’s not nuts that doing our f-ing job.

My privilege? You realize that many of your fellow teachers don’t do that, right? Some of my kids’ teacher won’t even help them when they have excused absences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a teacher, I am excited by the 5 day blackout period at the end of each quarter. I am worried that the 50% rule seems murkier than ever —regardless of product or accuracy is wild. That that mean Larla can draw 5 misleading doodles about Westward Expansion and get 12.5 points for a 25 point essay?

The points don’t matter in the end. The grade matters.
It’s just a compressed scale.

Just think of it as, on every task, the student is only graded in their worst half of the work, and the scale is 20% D, 40% C, 60% B, 80% A.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This isn't something the BOE votes on. It's a regulation, not a policy, so it's up to Taylor and CO to rewrite it.

True, but when they informed the BOE about it maybe a month ago, and said they planned to do a phased roll-out, the BOE pushed back. That's why it's 6-12 now.

Really unhappy with the BOE on this one. My rising current high schooler is in tears over the anticipated additional stress next year. She could manage with the one quarter on, next quarter relax pace, but constant pressure to perform all year will be felt. Especially when there are 4 tests on the same day. Ugh, Ugh, Ugh

There’s nothing to worry about except her crippling anxiety.

She can do semi relaxed pace every quarter and get the same result. She can get grades that accurately assess her mastery of the material, which help her place in a appropriate classses for her ability level, instead of drowning like she has been in middle school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be fair, the purpose of grading is to measure how well a student understands the material and how well they can complete the skill under a time constraint. For the teacher, grading should be looked at individually and as a whole. If the entire class is missing one question or section then the teacher needs to course correction as they didn’t word or present the material adequately. For the student, grading is part of the learning cycle where they learn more by seeing what they got wrong, understanding why and should be in a position to course correction and do better the next time.

Of course none of this happens because students drop assignments and tests into a black box where the teacher doesn’t return them until the day before quarter ends or much later or maybe never. Tests may be quickly reviewed in class but they are snatched back so the teacher isn’t bothered to create more than one test. This deprives students of an excellent end of year study guide but god forbid the teacher do anything pedagogical.

This is all true but I wouldn’t frame it as a knock on the teachers. McPS doesn’t give them the time to give the feedback or get grading done timely. Also, in college if a prof realizes a test was bad because one or more questions were poorly phrased or too hard, they can adjust the grades or give extra credit or something. I remember in my HS physics cclass, the teacher gave an army assignment that was impossible and almost everyone failed it, so the teacher assigned an additional assignment as “extra credit” to account for it. McPS doesn’t allow extra credit or grading on a carve. I do think people are gojng to complain more about unfair grading or violations of the grading policy — that currently happens a lot but parents let it go because it so rarely makes a difference under the current grading policy.

Good news! The new policy requires teachers to return graded school work within 10 school days.

DP. And I assume the county isn’t giving teachers any additional time to get this done, right? Just more demands on teachers’ home lives?

You want more rigor for students but not more rigor on giving students feedback?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had a tougher grading scale than my kids do, I had semester and final exams, there was no such thing as retakes, and there was no 50% rule — but teachers could offer extra credit, I didn’t have to take math my senior year, I had 2-3 study halls as a senior, I didn’t need to take tons of APs to get into college, there was no SSL requirement, no one I knew did any serious prepping for the SAT. I don’t remember feeling like my college app essay was a make-or-break part of the application process. I wasn’t even a slacker; I was valedictorian and a National Merit Scholar and attended college on a full tuition scholarship.


Now you have to have an unweighted 4.0, a 1500+ SAT, take 12 APs, be a competitive athlete at the state level, have 300 documented SSL hours, have an interesting hobby, a leadership position, and a compelling life story to get into a top college.

I don’t object to bringing back a tougher grading scale and final exams, but something has to give. It’s not fair to subject today’s students to all of the most stringent requirements from the last 40 years. No other generation has had the proposed grading scale + final exams + SSL requirement + current course requirements + no study halls + such competitive college admissions.

I had all of these and a higher cutoff for A grade. Competitive college admissions is a red herring. Your child isn’t required to compete for admission to Harvard. Lowering demands won’t make it easier for your child to get in. The number of seats isn’t changing.

Harvard? Lol. Strong students are getting rejected from state flagship public schools now. If a school thinks you view them as a safety school, they might reject you to protect their yield. It wasn’t that way a generation ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My rising senior is super pissed that they can change the way the game is played 3/4 of the way through for some kids. Of course they can’t just phase in changes; MCPS is gonna MCPS.

It’s not a game. It’s an attempt to instill a sense of responsibility for getting an education before our nation collapses in a trash fire of ignorance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I disagree with not rounding X9.5 ti 10. Isn’t it a very basic rule of math?

I also do not get why all four grading periods are equal. This is still screwy as was the previous way. Why not simply count all grades earned within the semester toward the final grade?

NP here.

If someone wishes to have a strict view of "at least X%", then "at least X%" means you have to be at X.0, Not (X-0.5). For example, an A is at least 90% would mean an A is at least 90.0, not 89.5.

I am fine with that, quite honestly. Not all college profs allow 0.5 bump.

I am 51 years old and had a numerical grading system. Even in the olden days, when someone was ended up with an 89.5, it was rounded to a 90. Of all of MCPS’s policies, rounding is the least controversial/probelmatic.

It's doesn't really matter one way or the other what the cut off is, but there's no argument in favor of rounding a cutoff. If you want the cutoff to be 89.5, make the cut off 89.5, and say it is 89.5! Don't make the cutoff 89.5 but lie and say it's 90.

Anyone who doesn't understand this doesn't deserve a high school diploma, and probably was educated in MCPS.

The problem is MCPS's grading scale just uses whole numbers. It says a B is 80-89 and an A is 90-100. So 89.5 has to be rounded, and rounding up is the standard. If they don't want to round, they should change the scale to say a B is 80-89.9, etc.

This is absolute nonsense. Rounding isn’t more standard than truncating. Are you retiring at 64 1/2 because rounds to 65? Buying a beer at 20 1/2 because it rounds to 21?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would students not get into college? These changes just better reflect the learning in class over a full semester rather than the better quarter.

I don't think it's about not getting into college at all, it's about some kids having a harder time getting into the more selective colleges they want, especially if the colleges are still thinking "well we know MCPS has rampant grade inflation, so getting any Bs is a big deal." And that it's especially frustrating for kids who would have made different decisions about what classes to take what year if they knew this was coming.

I personally think that the benefits for the student body as a whole of applying it to everyone immediately are important enough to balance out those concerns, but I do see why it bothers people.

Kids who are unable to persevere through these changes don’t deserve the more selective universities. This will separate those who truly want it from those who are only half in it. This is not keeping kids from the high grades- only making sure they work throughout the whole semester to EARN the grade! A B might knock them out from HYP, but certainly not selective colleges!

Agree with this. It will be clear who the true A students are. They deserve that edge in elite college admissions.

Let's be real. Grades measure attention and time commitment to irrelevant detail, and concordance with teacher's personal biases.

Maybe in elementary, but not in the higher level math, science, and English classes. Some students are just more gifted in some subject areas and/or work harder. There’s no reason not to reward those students!

Isn’t it pretty to think so?
It really depends on the class and teacher. Even in sciences, some teachers require picayune commitment to materially irrelevant steps. It really varies a lot among the different teachers.

If your claim is that everyone should get an A because teachers are incompetent at setting standards, we have a much, much deeper problem that giving everyone As won’t fix.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This isn't something the BOE votes on. It's a regulation, not a policy, so it's up to Taylor and CO to rewrite it.

True, but when they informed the BOE about it maybe a month ago, and said they planned to do a phased roll-out, the BOE pushed back. That's why it's 6-12 now.

Really unhappy with the BOE on this one. My rising current high schooler is in tears over the anticipated additional stress next year. She could manage with the one quarter on, next quarter relax pace, but constant pressure to perform all year will be felt. Especially when there are 4 tests on the same day. Ugh, Ugh, Ugh

I'm sorry she and others in this situation are stressed, but you can't do one on/one off in college. This is good preparation for what she (and others) will face after MCPS.

I disagree. Part of academic success in college is strategic time management and prioritization of tasks, figuring out where you can cut corners without sacrificing performance when too many things are due at the same time. Figuring out the most advantageous way to work within given parameters is an important skill in the workplace, as well. The same kids who have figured out how to game their high school grading system will figure out how to succeed in college and in the office. They’ll work hard but they’ll also work smarter and have a decent work/life balance.

Yet in college they manage to have kids do that without having them stop trying hard halfway through the semester. Finals ate usually worth more than midterms. It is good for kids to get used to trying throughout the semester. They c a still be strategic about how they study and what assignments they put more work into, just as they will do in college. But now they will have to continue to master material throughout the semester.