Harvard Instituting Remedial Math Class

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Either Covid learning loss was worse than we thought (and we know it was really bad) or test optional is a complete failure.

Harvard students don’t know algebra?

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2024/9/3/new-math-intro-course/

The Harvard Math Department will pilot a new introductory course aimed at rectifying a lack of foundational algebra skills among students, according to Harvard’s Director of Introductory Math Brendan A. Kelly.

It's a function of grade inflation period. Someone posted an article from Bethesda magazine earlier that said MCPS had rampant grade inflation and kids had overweighted GPAs of 4.8 and 4.7 but their teachers/tutors said they could not do algebra 1 and lacked foundational algebra skills.

Weighted GPAs are out of control, and they are not college ready as a result. Harvard and others are seeing an over-inflated resume and admitting them based on misleading stats.

agree. everyone is rushing to blame TO policies but I agree it's happening because of inflated GPAs. everyone is getting "bonus" points for stacking up honors and AP classes and teachers are giving As where they should be giving Bs (at best).

Standardized tests counter grade inflation.

Not really. The rich kids with inflated grades pay for test prep classes and game that system.

Rich kids learn more because their parents put money and/or time into education.
It's true.
You fix that by providing free education to poor kids, and lowering standards for poor kids who show growth.
Not by filling the college with randomly selected students and just hoping they are smart.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What do you think would happen to those Harvard faculty?
We have ruined free speech.

What do YOU think would have happened?

Bonus points for any sort of evidence.

[Anonymous]

Wow, the level of vitriol in this thread is just amazing!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:but why? I mean, these students are not qualified to be in Harvard STEM majors, you'd think. And if they're studying something in humanities, let them take physics for poets (like I did)

Even if you are studying humanities, I'm not sure how you get into a T25 school without knowing basic Algebra. Everywhere I've lived, taking thru Algebra 2 is a requirement for HS graduation. And I"m not sure how you get into Harvard without being on track for Pre-calc senior year (that's on grade level for math).

That's not a TO thing. That's simply looking at an applicants transcript

You can be good at cheating but bad at math.

At all levels there are people who are good at rote and bad at thinking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Either Covid learning loss was worse than we thought (and we know it was really bad) or test optional is a complete failure.

Harvard students don’t know algebra?

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2024/9/3/new-math-intro-course/

The Harvard Math Department will pilot a new introductory course aimed at rectifying a lack of foundational algebra skills among students, according to Harvard’s Director of Introductory Math Brendan A. Kelly.

It's a function of grade inflation period. Someone posted an article from Bethesda magazine earlier that said MCPS had rampant grade inflation and kids had overweighted GPAs of 4.8 and 4.7 but their teachers/tutors said they could not do algebra 1 and lacked foundational algebra skills.

Weighted GPAs are out of control, and they are not college ready as a result. Harvard and others are seeing an over-inflated resume and admitting them based on misleading stats.

agree. everyone is rushing to blame TO policies but I agree it's happening because of inflated GPAs. everyone is getting "bonus" points for stacking up honors and AP classes and teachers are giving As where they should be giving Bs (at best).

Standardized tests counter grade inflation.

Not really. The rich kids with inflated grades pay for test prep classes and game that system.

Rich kids learn more because their parents put money and/or time into education.
It's true.
You fix that by providing free education to poor kids, and lowering standards for poor kids who show growth.
Not by filling the college with randomly selected students and just hoping they are smart.

A rich kid who is in remedial math despite all their advantages is not comparable to a poor kid in remedial math because they haven't had adequate preparation. I have far more sympathy for the latter student who has a lot more potential to advance academically with the resources Harvard has. If you ever read Sonia Sotomayor's bio, she had to get remedial English support when she first entered Princeton. But she worked like a demon to catch up and graduated with the top undergraduate award available for all around academic and extracurricular excellence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Either Covid learning loss was worse than we thought (and we know it was really bad) or test optional is a complete failure.

Harvard students don’t know algebra?

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2024/9/3/new-math-intro-course/

The Harvard Math Department will pilot a new introductory course aimed at rectifying a lack of foundational algebra skills among students, according to Harvard’s Director of Introductory Math Brendan A. Kelly.

It's a function of grade inflation period. Someone posted an article from Bethesda magazine earlier that said MCPS had rampant grade inflation and kids had overweighted GPAs of 4.8 and 4.7 but their teachers/tutors said they could not do algebra 1 and lacked foundational algebra skills.

Weighted GPAs are out of control, and they are not college ready as a result. Harvard and others are seeing an over-inflated resume and admitting them based on misleading stats.

agree. everyone is rushing to blame TO policies but I agree it's happening because of inflated GPAs. everyone is getting "bonus" points for stacking up honors and AP classes and teachers are giving As where they should be giving Bs (at best).

Standardized tests counter grade inflation.

Not really. The rich kids with inflated grades pay for test prep classes and game that system.

Rich kids learn more because their parents put money and/or time into education.
It's true.
You fix that by providing free education to poor kids, and lowering standards for poor kids who show growth.
Not by filling the college with randomly selected students and just hoping they are smart.

A rich kid who is in remedial math despite all their advantages is not comparable to a poor kid in remedial math because they haven't had adequate preparation. I have far more sympathy for the latter student who has a lot more potential to advance academically with the resources Harvard has. If you ever read Sonia Sotomayor's bio, she had to get remedial English support when she first entered Princeton. But she worked like a demon to catch up and graduated with the top undergraduate award available for all around academic and extracurricular excellence.

Yep, crazy but true Harvard is a school. They are supposed to change the students, with teaching.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Either Covid learning loss was worse than we thought (and we know it was really bad) or test optional is a complete failure.

Harvard students don’t know algebra?

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2024/9/3/new-math-intro-course/

The Harvard Math Department will pilot a new introductory course aimed at rectifying a lack of foundational algebra skills among students, according to Harvard’s Director of Introductory Math Brendan A. Kelly.

It's a function of grade inflation period. Someone posted an article from Bethesda magazine earlier that said MCPS had rampant grade inflation and kids had overweighted GPAs of 4.8 and 4.7 but their teachers/tutors said they could not do algebra 1 and lacked foundational algebra skills.

Weighted GPAs are out of control, and they are not college ready as a result. Harvard and others are seeing an over-inflated resume and admitting them based on misleading stats.

agree. everyone is rushing to blame TO policies but I agree it's happening because of inflated GPAs. everyone is getting "bonus" points for stacking up honors and AP classes and teachers are giving As where they should be giving Bs (at best).

Standardized tests counter grade inflation.

Not really. The rich kids with inflated grades pay for test prep classes and game that system.

Rich kids learn more because their parents put money and/or time into education.
It's true.
You fix that by providing free education to poor kids, and lowering standards for poor kids who show growth.
Not by filling the college with randomly selected students and just hoping they are smart.

A rich kid who is in remedial math despite all their advantages is not comparable to a poor kid in remedial math because they haven't had adequate preparation. I have far more sympathy for the latter student who has a lot more potential to advance academically with the resources Harvard has. If you ever read Sonia Sotomayor's bio, she had to get remedial English support when she first entered Princeton. But she worked like a demon to catch up and graduated with the top undergraduate award available for all around academic and extracurricular excellence.

Yep, crazy but true Harvard is a school. They are supposed to change the students, with teaching.

+1 And we're supposed to want first gen kids with high potential to succeed rather than accepting a class of kids of 1%ers so there's no class mobility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know plenty of MIT grads who are not writers. I'm not shocked that there are Harvard kids who are top 1% in something who are not great at calc. Not everyone can be everything.

pre-calc is not top 1% for a college student and certainly not for a student at Harvard

Says who? This is who Harvard wants. What you want for Harvard is something else. It is your expectations that need adjustment.

I agree. This point seems lost based on many comments. What a person thinks or feels a college/university should value or prioritize does not always align to the school's values and mission. Harvard puts in place a program to educate students and people are mad it's not the right students.

It is interesting that with almost 3,000 4-year colleges, folks get worked up over this one. I mean, how many students out of their undergraduate enrollment are even taking this class? Not sure why folks care so much. Alum maybe?

If Harvard was even slightly satisfied with its TO class, it would not have chosen to violate it's TO-until-2030 pledge. The fact that it is willing to do so given the reputational hit indicates just how much the TO classes failed to meet Harvard's own standards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Harvard is a school. It's goal is to provide an education, not judgenwhatever contest you think it should be running. The lower the ability of incoming students, the more we can see if the school is adding any value.

This is absolutely absurd. Not everyone is capable of doing calculus. There is a significant proportion of the US population that does not have the intellectual ability to understand higher level math regardless of how much time they spend attempting to learn it. People that need remedial math classes are not cut out for Harvard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s interesting that when MIT encountered this issue, they dumped test optional admissions. Harvard is doubling down.

It’s clearly Harvard’s call to focus on equity more than academic excellence, but let’s not pretend it isn’t a choice.

+1 But then Harvard is still holding onto the antiquated system of legacies. IMO, they are more like a liberal arts college.

Ummm... Math is part of the liberal arts. And admitting legacies has nothing to do with what type of college it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lack of foundational skills does not equal inability to learn. Over half of American kids go to public schools with varying degrees of competence in teaching.

Kids who have a great capacity to learn are sometimes limited in who teaches them leading to graduation in high school without the necessary foundational skills.

Harvard-type students will learn quickly regardless of foundational skills and good on Harvard for recognizing that students with high potential may not all come out equal after high school.

Kids have FOUR years of undergraduate education to be exposed to top level faculty and rigorous coursework. If someone "lacks foundational skills," they are taking a spot that would have been used to much greater effect by someone who was prepared and able. Should we also admit illiterate kids who we somehow have determined are really, really smart down deep and then teach them to read while at Harvard?

Should these kids' academic lives be over if they lack foundational skills? No. But at some point, we should say that it is not good for our society to use spots at elite colleges for people who cannot take full advantage of the opportunity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s interesting that when MIT encountered this issue, they dumped test optional admissions. Harvard is doubling down.

It’s clearly Harvard’s call to focus on equity more than academic excellence, but let’s not pretend it isn’t a choice.

+1 But then Harvard is still holding onto the antiquated system of legacies. IMO, they are more like a liberal arts college.

Legacy is another predictive variable for academic performance in college. If you have two otherwise identical students the legacy student is more likely to succeed at college. They can all pull the parents transcripts to get more data on whether the kid is likely to do well at the school or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Math M isn't a new course, and isn't remedial. It's functions and introductory calculus, which are college level calculus. This is a section of the same course that meets 5 days instead of 3 so that kids can get more support while taking this college level class.

"“What we thought was the best thing to do — instead of adding another course before MA — was to add more time and support into MA for students who would need it.”"

Previous commenters might be great at math but lack reading skills - or the willingness to actually read the article before blathering.

The best that can be argued is that the old introductory course was too advanced for a significant subset of students, so they added a new section that provides significantly more support and tutoring (i.e., remedial) FYI, Harvard describes it as “a new introductory course.”


Quote from The Crimson:

He said the Covid-19 pandemic led to gaps in students’ math skills and learning abilities, prompting the need for a new introductory course.

“The last two years, we saw students who were in Math MA and faced a challenge that was unreasonable given the supports we had in the course. So we wanted to think about, ‘How can we create a course that really helps students step up to their aspirations?’” he said.

This is definitely not due to covid learning loss. It is entirely due to woke admissions policies that are disconnected from reality. People do not have equal capacity to learn and there is a wide range in intellectual abilities. Admitting people because they are low income or first gen status, without providing an SAT score is a recipe for disaster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Either Covid learning loss was worse than we thought (and we know it was really bad) or test optional is a complete failure.

Harvard students don’t know algebra?

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2024/9/3/new-math-intro-course/

The Harvard Math Department will pilot a new introductory course aimed at rectifying a lack of foundational algebra skills among students, according to Harvard’s Director of Introductory Math Brendan A. Kelly.

It's a function of grade inflation period. Someone posted an article from Bethesda magazine earlier that said MCPS had rampant grade inflation and kids had overweighted GPAs of 4.8 and 4.7 but their teachers/tutors said they could not do algebra 1 and lacked foundational algebra skills.

Weighted GPAs are out of control, and they are not college ready as a result. Harvard and others are seeing an over-inflated resume and admitting them based on misleading stats.

agree. everyone is rushing to blame TO policies but I agree it's happening because of inflated GPAs. everyone is getting "bonus" points for stacking up honors and AP classes and teachers are giving As where they should be giving Bs (at best).

Standardized tests counter grade inflation.

Not really. The rich kids with inflated grades pay for test prep classes and game that system.

Rich kids learn more because their parents put money and/or time into education.
It's true.
You fix that by providing free education to poor kids, and lowering standards for poor kids who show growth.
Not by filling the college with randomly selected students and just hoping they are smart.

A rich kid who is in remedial math despite all their advantages is not comparable to a poor kid in remedial math because they haven't had adequate preparation. I have far more sympathy for the latter student who has a lot more potential to advance academically with the resources Harvard has. If you ever read Sonia Sotomayor's bio, she had to get remedial English support when she first entered Princeton. But she worked like a demon to catch up and graduated with the top undergraduate award available for all around academic and extracurricular excellence.

Yep, crazy but true Harvard is a school. They are supposed to change the students, with teaching.

+1 And we're supposed to want first gen kids with high potential to succeed rather than accepting a class of kids of 1%ers so there's no class mobility.

This is also woke nonsense. Colleges are supposed to educate the best and brightest students. Their purpose is not to promote “class mobility”. China is going to eat our lunch if we don’t stop pursuing destructive equity driven policies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you think would happen to those Harvard faculty?
We have ruined free speech.

What do YOU think would have happened?

Bonus points for any sort of evidence.

NP

A non-tenured professor could get sacked and even tenured professors could get demoted, suspended or censured.

https://academeblog.org/2021/03/15/in-defense-of-sandra-sellers-and-david-batson/
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/05/ronald-sullivan-was-fired-harvard-does-it-matter/589471/