Harvard Instituting Remedial Math Class

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Math M isn't a new course, and isn't remedial. It's functions and introductory calculus, which are college level calculus. This is a section of the same course that meets 5 days instead of 3 so that kids can get more support while taking this college level class.

"“What we thought was the best thing to do — instead of adding another course before MA — was to add more time and support into MA for students who would need it.”"

Previous commenters might be great at math but lack reading skills - or the willingness to actually read the article before blathering.

"Students don’t have the skills that we had intended downstream in the curriculum, and so it creates different trajectories in students’ math abilities,” Kelly added." That sounds like these kids aren't capable of taking a math course that begins with pre-calculus. Other schools would call that remedial for a college student, but these are Harvard kids, so we can't have that designation

+++ yes this is struggling with pre-calc. TO led to too many unqualified students getting in to what is supposed to be an elite college for the brightest students. It has long drifted from that goal; the TO phase was a new low in student quality.

This is fairly obvious. If it wasn't due to to TO, then Harvard would've had this type of class pre TO.

IMO, Harvard is holding on to legacy because they aren't admitting the best anymore. MIT will become more prestigious in terms of actual academic strength than Harvard.

It already has- im 40 years old and cant rember when it wasn't. even teh boston brahmins who went to MIT were the smart ones, the dumb ones were 7th gen Harvard grads.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Math M isn't a new course, and isn't remedial. It's functions and introductory calculus, which are college level calculus. This is a section of the same course that meets 5 days instead of 3 so that kids can get more support while taking this college level class.

"“What we thought was the best thing to do — instead of adding another course before MA — was to add more time and support into MA for students who would need it.”"

Previous commenters might be great at math but lack reading skills - or the willingness to actually read the article before blathering.

"Students don’t have the skills that we had intended downstream in the curriculum, and so it creates different trajectories in students’ math abilities,” Kelly added." That sounds like these kids aren't capable of taking a math course that begins with pre-calculus. Other schools would call that remedial for a college student, but these are Harvard kids, so we can't have that designation

+++ yes this is struggling with pre-calc. TO led to too many unqualified students getting in to what is supposed to be an elite college for the brightest students. It has long drifted from that goal; the TO phase was a new low in student quality.

This is fairly obvious. If it wasn't due to to TO, then Harvard would've had this type of class pre TO.

IMO, Harvard is holding on to legacy because they aren't admitting the best anymore. MIT will become more prestigious in terms of actual academic strength than Harvard.

It already has- im 40 years old and cant rember when it wasn't. even teh boston brahmins who went to MIT were the smart ones, the dumb ones were 7th gen Harvard grads.

You may think that's true that Ivy kids are stupider, but data show that it's not true. 40 years ago, women weren't part of the applicant pools, and international students were far fewer. The pool of candidates is larger, and candidate quality is higher (despite the typical legacies and donor admits and athletes that bring down the academic rigor).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know plenty of MIT grads who are not writers. I'm not shocked that there are Harvard kids who are top 1% in something who are not great at calc. Not everyone can be everything.

My experience differs — I spent my career in a policy area that is highly technical, and of all the people (Ivy and non) I’ve employed, MIT grads have been the most consistently impressive and well rounded.

MIT grads were so arrogant we no longer recruit them at our company. They were terrible team players. The only thing they could do was brag they went to MIT. Couldn’t take direction or criticism. Insufferable.

That is not my experience with MIT graduates. MIT can be an extremely humbling place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Either Covid learning loss was worse than we thought (and we know it was really bad) or test optional is a complete failure.

Harvard students don’t know algebra?

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2024/9/3/new-math-intro-course/

The Harvard Math Department will pilot a new introductory course aimed at rectifying a lack of foundational algebra skills among students, according to Harvard’s Director of Introductory Math Brendan A. Kelly.

It's a function of grade inflation period. Someone posted an article from Bethesda magazine earlier that said MCPS had rampant grade inflation and kids had overweighted GPAs of 4.8 and 4.7 but their teachers/tutors said they could not do algebra 1 and lacked foundational algebra skills.

Weighted GPAs are out of control, and they are not college ready as a result. Harvard and others are seeing an over-inflated resume and admitting them based on misleading stats.

agree. everyone is rushing to blame TO policies but I agree it's happening because of inflated GPAs. everyone is getting "bonus" points for stacking up honors and AP classes and teachers are giving As where they should be giving Bs (at best).

or maybe all those stellar students taking algebra 2 in 8th grade didnt actually master the material . . .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow. I assume this is directed at first gen students, but still seems pretty nuts.

why would you assume that?

Many Asian American students are first gen, and they score very high in math, the highest of all groups.

For the most part it’s because all they do is study.

Actually, they do lot of martial arts (Tae Kwon Do etc.) and soccer and tennis as well.

But all of it is at the insistence of their parents in order to go to an Ivy. So formulaic. It’s like a “plug and chug” personality. Intrinsic motivation is completely absent.

??? Because Ivy's tend to select kids that do martial arts, soccer and tennis? GTFOH.

The notion that asians kids are automatons and white kids are "passionate" is trite and incorrect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know plenty of MIT grads who are not writers. I'm not shocked that there are Harvard kids who are top 1% in something who are not great at calc. Not everyone can be everything.

pre-calc is not top 1% for a college student and certainly not for a student at Harvard

Says who? This is who Harvard wants. What you want for Harvard is something else. It is your expectations that need adjustment.

I agree. This point seems lost based on many comments. What a person thinks or feels a college/university should value or prioritize does not always align to the school's values and mission. Harvard puts in place a program to educate students and people are mad it's not the right students.

It is interesting that with almost 3,000 4-year colleges, folks get worked up over this one. I mean, how many students out of their undergraduate enrollment are even taking this class? Not sure why folks care so much. Alum maybe?

Sure, I mean Harvard can place more emphasis on diversity and race over aptitude and merit all it wants. But Harvard grads can't cry later as they start tanking in ratings and the Harvard name brand becomes more synonymous with slightly above mediocre rather than excellence. Employers take note and will draw less and less from less qualified Harvard candidates. What took 300 years to build in terms of name brand and excellence is going to be demolished in only 20 years because of overemphasizing race and diversity above all else. Have fun with that fallout.

Tbh, Harvard has already reached a breaking point and is past the point of no return. Grads from schools like MIT, CalTech, Rice, GAtech, CMU, Princeton, etc. are more impressive. And in terms of the world, I doubt Harvard is even top 20 anymore. Grads from Tsinghua, National University of Singapore, University of Tokyo, Oxbridge, Imperial College of London, etc. are all more impressive grads.

Many other countries in the world give zero craps about diversity at all costs. Americans would be in for a shocking eye opener if they looked at global rankings. US schools are falling fast, because they're backsliding into medicority due to identity politics. China is eating US' lunch now in engineering and STEM. US continues to go down the tubes because we do is enroll mediocre students like at Harvard who now need remedial algebra - the same class Asian students have mastered since about the 4th grade.

This is not true. The very top layer of harvard is still very impressive. But the harvard brand generally doesn't carry the same weight it used to. We have all seen companies that used to almost exclusively recruit at ivy+ casting wider nets because of the inconsistency of the graduates (and not just the URM graduates, all the graduates),

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:but why? I mean, these students are not qualified to be in Harvard STEM majors, you'd think. And if they're studying something in humanities, let them take physics for poets (like I did)

Even if you are studying humanities, I'm not sure how you get into a T25 school without knowing basic Algebra. Everywhere I've lived, taking thru Algebra 2 is a requirement for HS graduation. And I"m not sure how you get into Harvard without being on track for Pre-calc senior year (that's on grade level for math).

That's not a TO thing. That's simply looking at an applicants transcript

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It’s good they’re providing these kids support. When are other schools going to do the same. It’s a nationwide problem, not just an Harvard problem.

Hopefully, HS will take note and ensure BS grade inflation will go away.

They cannot.
If they actually differentiated GPAs, the distribution would look a lot like test score distributions and the karens would lose their minds.
They would burn down society before admitting their mid kids are mid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Either Covid learning loss was worse than we thought (and we know it was really bad) or test optional is a complete failure.

Harvard students don’t know algebra?

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2024/9/3/new-math-intro-course/

The Harvard Math Department will pilot a new introductory course aimed at rectifying a lack of foundational algebra skills among students, according to Harvard’s Director of Introductory Math Brendan A. Kelly.

It's because they're still letting in below bar kids for the sake of diversity. The average overachiever at the Ivies took algebra in 6th or 7th grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe this disabuses people of the notion that students at these “elite” colleges are somehow intrinsically superior. Generic college X could take a class composed entirely of applicants shut out of Ivy+ that would be just as strong as Harvard’s enrolling class.

Maybe. Has any X done it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow. I assume this is directed at first gen students, but still seems pretty nuts.

No, it is all the schools rushing kids through accelerated programs in the name of being the youngest ever to talk calculus. This is s no way to learn math.

I thought that could be contributing to it too. My kid is learning algebra in grade 7. By the time he starts year 1 of college he won't remember it.

Wut?
My kid took addition in 1st grade and he still remembers it.

If your kid continues to do math every year, they are going to need algebra in all those classes, it is foundational

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:but why? I mean, these students are not qualified to be in Harvard STEM majors, you'd think. And if they're studying something in humanities, let them take physics for poets (like I did)

Even if you are studying humanities, I'm not sure how you get into a T25 school without knowing basic Algebra. Everywhere I've lived, taking thru Algebra 2 is a requirement for HS graduation. And I"m not sure how you get into Harvard without being on track for Pre-calc senior year (that's on grade level for math).

That's not a TO thing. That's simply looking at an applicants transcript

You can be good at cheating but bad at math.

[Anonymous]

Why isn't Harvard getting out in front of the terrible PR and reputational hit this course creates?

Why aren't Harvard's tenured faculty speaking out against admitting students who haven't achieved high school requirements?

[Anonymous]

What do you think would happen to those Harvard faculty?
We have ruined free speech.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What do you think would happen to those Harvard faculty?
We have ruined free speech.

Probably because a lot of the kids who were admitted who haven't achieved these requirements are recruited athletes, legacies and donor kids. And because it should be easier to detect these kids in the future now that test optional is gone.