When will DC TAG be expanded??

[Anonymous]

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jsteele wrote:

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jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Never. Poor kids can get financial aid. DC is broke and isn't going to spend more money to subsidize upper middle class kids' college degrees

It's federal money so it doesn't cost DC anything.

In 2021 Eleanor Holmes Norton succeeded in getting the House to pass an expanded program. But, that language was stripped by the Senate. Expanding DC TAG is normally one of Norton's priorities so I am sure she will keep trying. This year she may be distracted with the RFK transfer. You can read the discussion about Norton's previous attempt here:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/990354.page

I am not sure if she did anything with regard to DC TAG last year. If she did, I didn't hear about it.

Sh didn't. I kept expecting to see the announcement for an increase to $15,000. I mean, sure, the program was meant to close the gap between in state and OOS tuition, but the exponential rise in tuition makes this a nice grant, but nothing close to par. One thing people should know...it is now means tested.

That's too bad. The point of it was for DC residents to have some parity with the opportunities in the 50 states.

It's called UDC. If DC wants a research university, they can fund one. DC Tag should be cancelled or extended to all Americans

Then DC can tax MD and VA residents working in DC.

A commuter tax is prohibited by the Home Rule Act.

With the declining fiscal picture in DC I would NOT expect this amount to be increased any time soon.

Once again, DC TAG is federally funded. It has nothing to do with DC 's fiscal picture.

But DC should invest more in higher ed. In MD or VA my tax dollars would get me access to a range of more affordable colleges.

Virginia has 8.6 million residents, which is more than 10 times D.C.'s population. Maryland has 6.2 million. For D.C. to have even just one campus that's even just the same size as the UMD or UVA flagships, let alone on the same level of quality, would require raising taxes significantly on the residents we have.

UDC does now have a community college branch that's similar in affordability to Montgomery College or Nova Community College, though.

Perhaps it is similar in affordability, but not in quality. MoCo College and NVCC are among the best community colleges in the country. DC's is among the worst.

At least for schools like these TAG is great…assume it brings the cost to nearly $0.

These are not four year colleges. Families that stay in DC through HS deserve a break. The $$ is nominal. If the federal government want to insist we can’t have self determination then they can pony up the pittance to bring college costs on par with the average US state college.

This sentiment is silly (and I plan for my kids to graduate from DCPS high schools in a few years). Families don't "deserve" money just for living in D.C. If anything, they should be means-testing this benefit so it isn't primarily giving upper NW residents (like me) a discount on Big 10 schools.

Narrator: It is means tested already.

Is it? I'm not aware of any income limits on who's eligible for it.

Literally means tested for years.

https://osse.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/osse/publication/attachments/Information%20on%20DCTAG%20Maximum%20Income_2023.pdf

Ah, I didn't know this because my household earns well under the cap. Which, honestly, is a sign the cap should be lower.

DC makes the cap so high so rich people don't have another reason to move to MD or VA. They pay a lot more in taxes over 18+ years than DC "loses" in giving UMC kids some federal DCTAG money.

The more people who use a program, the more broad support there is for it.

The political incentives for DCTAG are a complete mess, though -- it's a federal program, so even if every household in D.C. used it, it wouldn't be broadly taken advantage of nationwide, plus the people eligible for it can't vote for someone who has a vote on whether to extend/expand/end/whatever it. The cap being higher or lower has virtually no effect on support for this program among the people who determine its future, none of whom represent anyone who can possibly use it.

DC people really do live in a different reality. I don’t think you could have a better example of hand out culture if you tried. What was originally set up as a pity program is now seen as an entitlement.

Here’s a better idea: tell the mayor and the Council to fund UDC at an adequate level. Tell UDC to go out and solicit donations from alumni and corporations. Tell UDC faculty to go out and get grants. Tell UDC to raise tuition. You know, the things that every other state university does to fund itself.

UDC will never be adequately funded as the District does not have a large enough tax base. The funding basis for powerhouse state schools is to tax the entire state and redistribute to the university system.

And can you point me to this wealth-off alumni base of UDC?!?! That's a laughable suggestion.

I get that UDC is a long-standing source of pride as an African-American land grant college. But there's soooooo many better options nearby that successfully graduate students on time and have strong professional networks + traditional college experiences - Howard, Bowie, Morgan State, etc. It would be better if DC young adults could just attend those at in-state prices.

Utter nonsense. The DC budget is over $20 billion dollars. The budget for the entire state of Maryland is $60 billion. The budget for Montgomery County is $7 billion. DC has plenty of money to fund higher education. It just chooses not to. It’s another reason why DC will never be a state.

It's true D.C. would have the money to fund education at about the scale Montgomery County does, but it's also true that a lot of that $20 billion represents payments for state-like functions that Montgomery County doesn't engage in, so these direct $$ comparisons are sort of unhelpful. D.C. probably could stand up a proper public university that's on par with non-flagship state schools nearby if it wanted to. Would be interesting to see how that unfolded if someone in public office were to make a serious push for it.

I disagree with the idea that D.C. shouldn't become a state because it hasn't chosen to spend money in this way, though; statehood shouldn't be some kind of reward for "good" behavior. D.C. residents don't need to earn democracy.

You are incapable of doing math, so let me do it for you.

Per capita government spending (state + local, excl. federal) for a resident of Montgomery County = $17,500

Per capita government spending for a resident of DC = $30,000

Tell me more about these “state functions” when DC doesn’t even pay for its own criminal justice system. Corits, prosecutors, supervision, prisons all paid by the Feds.

Absolute joke.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Never. Poor kids can get financial aid. DC is broke and isn't going to spend more money to subsidize upper middle class kids' college degrees

It's federal money so it doesn't cost DC anything.

In 2021 Eleanor Holmes Norton succeeded in getting the House to pass an expanded program. But, that language was stripped by the Senate. Expanding DC TAG is normally one of Norton's priorities so I am sure she will keep trying. This year she may be distracted with the RFK transfer. You can read the discussion about Norton's previous attempt here:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/990354.page

I am not sure if she did anything with regard to DC TAG last year. If she did, I didn't hear about it.

Sh didn't. I kept expecting to see the announcement for an increase to $15,000. I mean, sure, the program was meant to close the gap between in state and OOS tuition, but the exponential rise in tuition makes this a nice grant, but nothing close to par. One thing people should know...it is now means tested.

That's too bad. The point of it was for DC residents to have some parity with the opportunities in the 50 states.

It's called UDC. If DC wants a research university, they can fund one. DC Tag should be cancelled or extended to all Americans

Then DC can tax MD and VA residents working in DC.

A commuter tax is prohibited by the Home Rule Act.

With the declining fiscal picture in DC I would NOT expect this amount to be increased any time soon.

Once again, DC TAG is federally funded. It has nothing to do with DC 's fiscal picture.

But DC should invest more in higher ed. In MD or VA my tax dollars would get me access to a range of more affordable colleges.

Virginia has 8.6 million residents, which is more than 10 times D.C.'s population. Maryland has 6.2 million. For D.C. to have even just one campus that's even just the same size as the UMD or UVA flagships, let alone on the same level of quality, would require raising taxes significantly on the residents we have.

UDC does now have a community college branch that's similar in affordability to Montgomery College or Nova Community College, though.

Perhaps it is similar in affordability, but not in quality. MoCo College and NVCC are among the best community colleges in the country. DC's is among the worst.

At least for schools like these TAG is great…assume it brings the cost to nearly $0.

These are not four year colleges. Families that stay in DC through HS deserve a break. The $$ is nominal. If the federal government want to insist we can’t have self determination then they can pony up the pittance to bring college costs on par with the average US state college.

This sentiment is silly (and I plan for my kids to graduate from DCPS high schools in a few years). Families don't "deserve" money just for living in D.C. If anything, they should be means-testing this benefit so it isn't primarily giving upper NW residents (like me) a discount on Big 10 schools.

Narrator: It is means tested already.

Is it? I'm not aware of any income limits on who's eligible for it.

Literally means tested for years.

https://osse.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/osse/publication/attachments/Information%20on%20DCTAG%20Maximum%20Income_2023.pdf

Ah, I didn't know this because my household earns well under the cap. Which, honestly, is a sign the cap should be lower.

DC makes the cap so high so rich people don't have another reason to move to MD or VA. They pay a lot more in taxes over 18+ years than DC "loses" in giving UMC kids some federal DCTAG money.

The more people who use a program, the more broad support there is for it.

The political incentives for DCTAG are a complete mess, though -- it's a federal program, so even if every household in D.C. used it, it wouldn't be broadly taken advantage of nationwide, plus the people eligible for it can't vote for someone who has a vote on whether to extend/expand/end/whatever it. The cap being higher or lower has virtually no effect on support for this program among the people who determine its future, none of whom represent anyone who can possibly use it.

DC people really do live in a different reality. I don’t think you could have a better example of hand out culture if you tried. What was originally set up as a pity program is now seen as an entitlement.

Here’s a better idea: tell the mayor and the Council to fund UDC at an adequate level. Tell UDC to go out and solicit donations from alumni and corporations. Tell UDC faculty to go out and get grants. Tell UDC to raise tuition. You know, the things that every other state university does to fund itself.

UDC will never be adequately funded as the District does not have a large enough tax base. The funding basis for powerhouse state schools is to tax the entire state and redistribute to the university system.

And can you point me to this wealth-off alumni base of UDC?!?! That's a laughable suggestion.

I get that UDC is a long-standing source of pride as an African-American land grant college. But there's soooooo many better options nearby that successfully graduate students on time and have strong professional networks + traditional college experiences - Howard, Bowie, Morgan State, etc. It would be better if DC young adults could just attend those at in-state prices.

Utter nonsense. The DC budget is over $20 billion dollars. The budget for the entire state of Maryland is $60 billion. The budget for Montgomery County is $7 billion. DC has plenty of money to fund higher education. It just chooses not to. It’s another reason why DC will never be a state.

It's true D.C. would have the money to fund education at about the scale Montgomery County does, but it's also true that a lot of that $20 billion represents payments for state-like functions that Montgomery County doesn't engage in, so these direct $$ comparisons are sort of unhelpful. D.C. probably could stand up a proper public university that's on par with non-flagship state schools nearby if it wanted to. Would be interesting to see how that unfolded if someone in public office were to make a serious push for it.

I disagree with the idea that D.C. shouldn't become a state because it hasn't chosen to spend money in this way, though; statehood shouldn't be some kind of reward for "good" behavior. D.C. residents don't need to earn democracy.

You are incapable of doing math, so let me do it for you.

Per capita government spending (state + local, excl. federal) for a resident of Montgomery County = $17,500

Per capita government spending for a resident of DC = $30,000

Tell me more about these “state functions” when DC doesn’t even pay for its own criminal justice system. Corits, prosecutors, supervision, prisons all paid by the Feds.

Absolute joke.

D.C. pays for Medicaid, unemployment, "state" transportation shares, etc. More than 25 percent of the revenue the District takes in is from federal transfers. I'm not sure where your per capita government spending figures come from, though, so I don't have any idea how they relate to that. You're right that the feds pay for the criminal justice system, but I believe that money still gets captured in the D.C. budget figures; the D.C. Department of Corrections budget, for instance, seems to think virtually the entire agency's budget comes from "local funds," even if those funds originated as a grant from the feds: https://cfo.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/ocfo/publication/attachments/fl_doc_chapter_2023j.pdf

You probably don't disagree with me, anyway: D.C. could afford to run a non-elite public university, especially if the funds DCTAG uses got redirected there by Congress. You apparently were too busy trying to demonstrate how smart you are to realize that, though?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Never. Poor kids can get financial aid. DC is broke and isn't going to spend more money to subsidize upper middle class kids' college degrees

It's federal money so it doesn't cost DC anything.

In 2021 Eleanor Holmes Norton succeeded in getting the House to pass an expanded program. But, that language was stripped by the Senate. Expanding DC TAG is normally one of Norton's priorities so I am sure she will keep trying. This year she may be distracted with the RFK transfer. You can read the discussion about Norton's previous attempt here:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/990354.page

I am not sure if she did anything with regard to DC TAG last year. If she did, I didn't hear about it.

Sh didn't. I kept expecting to see the announcement for an increase to $15,000. I mean, sure, the program was meant to close the gap between in state and OOS tuition, but the exponential rise in tuition makes this a nice grant, but nothing close to par. One thing people should know...it is now means tested.

That's too bad. The point of it was for DC residents to have some parity with the opportunities in the 50 states.

It's called UDC. If DC wants a research university, they can fund one. DC Tag should be cancelled or extended to all Americans

Then DC can tax MD and VA residents working in DC.

A commuter tax is prohibited by the Home Rule Act.

With the declining fiscal picture in DC I would NOT expect this amount to be increased any time soon.

Once again, DC TAG is federally funded. It has nothing to do with DC 's fiscal picture.

But DC should invest more in higher ed. In MD or VA my tax dollars would get me access to a range of more affordable colleges.

Virginia has 8.6 million residents, which is more than 10 times D.C.'s population. Maryland has 6.2 million. For D.C. to have even just one campus that's even just the same size as the UMD or UVA flagships, let alone on the same level of quality, would require raising taxes significantly on the residents we have.

UDC does now have a community college branch that's similar in affordability to Montgomery College or Nova Community College, though.

Perhaps it is similar in affordability, but not in quality. MoCo College and NVCC are among the best community colleges in the country. DC's is among the worst.

At least for schools like these TAG is great…assume it brings the cost to nearly $0.

These are not four year colleges. Families that stay in DC through HS deserve a break. The $$ is nominal. If the federal government want to insist we can’t have self determination then they can pony up the pittance to bring college costs on par with the average US state college.

This sentiment is silly (and I plan for my kids to graduate from DCPS high schools in a few years). Families don't "deserve" money just for living in D.C. If anything, they should be means-testing this benefit so it isn't primarily giving upper NW residents (like me) a discount on Big 10 schools.

Narrator: It is means tested already.

Is it? I'm not aware of any income limits on who's eligible for it.

Literally means tested for years.

https://osse.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/osse/publication/attachments/Information%20on%20DCTAG%20Maximum%20Income_2023.pdf

Ah, I didn't know this because my household earns well under the cap. Which, honestly, is a sign the cap should be lower.

DC makes the cap so high so rich people don't have another reason to move to MD or VA. They pay a lot more in taxes over 18+ years than DC "loses" in giving UMC kids some federal DCTAG money.

The more people who use a program, the more broad support there is for it.

The political incentives for DCTAG are a complete mess, though -- it's a federal program, so even if every household in D.C. used it, it wouldn't be broadly taken advantage of nationwide, plus the people eligible for it can't vote for someone who has a vote on whether to extend/expand/end/whatever it. The cap being higher or lower has virtually no effect on support for this program among the people who determine its future, none of whom represent anyone who can possibly use it.

DC people really do live in a different reality. I don’t think you could have a better example of hand out culture if you tried. What was originally set up as a pity program is now seen as an entitlement.

Here’s a better idea: tell the mayor and the Council to fund UDC at an adequate level. Tell UDC to go out and solicit donations from alumni and corporations. Tell UDC faculty to go out and get grants. Tell UDC to raise tuition. You know, the things that every other state university does to fund itself.

UDC will never be adequately funded as the District does not have a large enough tax base. The funding basis for powerhouse state schools is to tax the entire state and redistribute to the university system.

And can you point me to this wealth-off alumni base of UDC?!?! That's a laughable suggestion.

I get that UDC is a long-standing source of pride as an African-American land grant college. But there's soooooo many better options nearby that successfully graduate students on time and have strong professional networks + traditional college experiences - Howard, Bowie, Morgan State, etc. It would be better if DC young adults could just attend those at in-state prices.

Utter nonsense. The DC budget is over $20 billion dollars. The budget for the entire state of Maryland is $60 billion. The budget for Montgomery County is $7 billion. DC has plenty of money to fund higher education. It just chooses not to. It’s another reason why DC will never be a state.

It's true D.C. would have the money to fund education at about the scale Montgomery County does, but it's also true that a lot of that $20 billion represents payments for state-like functions that Montgomery County doesn't engage in, so these direct $$ comparisons are sort of unhelpful. D.C. probably could stand up a proper public university that's on par with non-flagship state schools nearby if it wanted to. Would be interesting to see how that unfolded if someone in public office were to make a serious push for it.

I disagree with the idea that D.C. shouldn't become a state because it hasn't chosen to spend money in this way, though; statehood shouldn't be some kind of reward for "good" behavior. D.C. residents don't need to earn democracy.

You are incapable of doing math, so let me do it for you.

Per capita government spending (state + local, excl. federal) for a resident of Montgomery County = $17,500

Per capita government spending for a resident of DC = $30,000

Tell me more about these “state functions” when DC doesn’t even pay for its own criminal justice system. Corits, prosecutors, supervision, prisons all paid by the Feds.

Absolute joke.

D.C. pays for Medicaid, unemployment, "state" transportation shares, etc. More than 25 percent of the revenue the District takes in is from federal transfers. I'm not sure where your per capita government spending figures come from, though, so I don't have any idea how they relate to that. You're right that the feds pay for the criminal justice system, but I believe that money still gets captured in the D.C. budget figures; the D.C. Department of Corrections budget, for instance, seems to think virtually the entire agency's budget comes from "local funds," even if those funds originated as a grant from the feds: https://cfo.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/ocfo/publication/attachments/fl_doc_chapter_2023j.pdf

You probably don't disagree with me, anyway: D.C. could afford to run a non-elite public university, especially if the funds DCTAG uses got redirected there by Congress. You apparently were too busy trying to demonstrate how smart you are to realize that, though?

The state of Maryland pays for all of these things too. DC is not special in any way except for being especially entitled in its belief that it should have federal handouts despite being so wasteful.

Here’s the math laid bare for you to understand.

MD state per capita spending is the state budget ($63 billion) divided by state population (6 million) = $10,500.

MC per capita spending is the county budget ($7 billion) divided by county population (1 million) = $7,000.

$10,500 + $7,000 = $17,500.

DC per capita spending is the city budget ($21 billion) divided by the city population (700,000) = $30,000.

Tell me what special expenses that DC pays again.

The idea that you think DC is owed federal TAG funds is a joke. Ultimate welfare mentality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Never. Poor kids can get financial aid. DC is broke and isn't going to spend more money to subsidize upper middle class kids' college degrees

It's federal money so it doesn't cost DC anything.

In 2021 Eleanor Holmes Norton succeeded in getting the House to pass an expanded program. But, that language was stripped by the Senate. Expanding DC TAG is normally one of Norton's priorities so I am sure she will keep trying. This year she may be distracted with the RFK transfer. You can read the discussion about Norton's previous attempt here:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/990354.page

I am not sure if she did anything with regard to DC TAG last year. If she did, I didn't hear about it.

Sh didn't. I kept expecting to see the announcement for an increase to $15,000. I mean, sure, the program was meant to close the gap between in state and OOS tuition, but the exponential rise in tuition makes this a nice grant, but nothing close to par. One thing people should know...it is now means tested.

That's too bad. The point of it was for DC residents to have some parity with the opportunities in the 50 states.

It's called UDC. If DC wants a research university, they can fund one. DC Tag should be cancelled or extended to all Americans

Then DC can tax MD and VA residents working in DC.

A commuter tax is prohibited by the Home Rule Act.

With the declining fiscal picture in DC I would NOT expect this amount to be increased any time soon.

Once again, DC TAG is federally funded. It has nothing to do with DC 's fiscal picture.

But DC should invest more in higher ed. In MD or VA my tax dollars would get me access to a range of more affordable colleges.

Virginia has 8.6 million residents, which is more than 10 times D.C.'s population. Maryland has 6.2 million. For D.C. to have even just one campus that's even just the same size as the UMD or UVA flagships, let alone on the same level of quality, would require raising taxes significantly on the residents we have.

UDC does now have a community college branch that's similar in affordability to Montgomery College or Nova Community College, though.

Perhaps it is similar in affordability, but not in quality. MoCo College and NVCC are among the best community colleges in the country. DC's is among the worst.

At least for schools like these TAG is great…assume it brings the cost to nearly $0.

These are not four year colleges. Families that stay in DC through HS deserve a break. The $$ is nominal. If the federal government want to insist we can’t have self determination then they can pony up the pittance to bring college costs on par with the average US state college.

This sentiment is silly (and I plan for my kids to graduate from DCPS high schools in a few years). Families don't "deserve" money just for living in D.C. If anything, they should be means-testing this benefit so it isn't primarily giving upper NW residents (like me) a discount on Big 10 schools.

Narrator: It is means tested already.

Is it? I'm not aware of any income limits on who's eligible for it.

Literally means tested for years.

https://osse.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/osse/publication/attachments/Information%20on%20DCTAG%20Maximum%20Income_2023.pdf

Ah, I didn't know this because my household earns well under the cap. Which, honestly, is a sign the cap should be lower.

DC makes the cap so high so rich people don't have another reason to move to MD or VA. They pay a lot more in taxes over 18+ years than DC "loses" in giving UMC kids some federal DCTAG money.

The more people who use a program, the more broad support there is for it.

The political incentives for DCTAG are a complete mess, though -- it's a federal program, so even if every household in D.C. used it, it wouldn't be broadly taken advantage of nationwide, plus the people eligible for it can't vote for someone who has a vote on whether to extend/expand/end/whatever it. The cap being higher or lower has virtually no effect on support for this program among the people who determine its future, none of whom represent anyone who can possibly use it.

DC people really do live in a different reality. I don’t think you could have a better example of hand out culture if you tried. What was originally set up as a pity program is now seen as an entitlement.

Here’s a better idea: tell the mayor and the Council to fund UDC at an adequate level. Tell UDC to go out and solicit donations from alumni and corporations. Tell UDC faculty to go out and get grants. Tell UDC to raise tuition. You know, the things that every other state university does to fund itself.

UDC will never be adequately funded as the District does not have a large enough tax base. The funding basis for powerhouse state schools is to tax the entire state and redistribute to the university system.

And can you point me to this wealth-off alumni base of UDC?!?! That's a laughable suggestion.

I get that UDC is a long-standing source of pride as an African-American land grant college. But there's soooooo many better options nearby that successfully graduate students on time and have strong professional networks + traditional college experiences - Howard, Bowie, Morgan State, etc. It would be better if DC young adults could just attend those at in-state prices.

Utter nonsense. The DC budget is over $20 billion dollars. The budget for the entire state of Maryland is $60 billion. The budget for Montgomery County is $7 billion. DC has plenty of money to fund higher education. It just chooses not to. It’s another reason why DC will never be a state.

It's true D.C. would have the money to fund education at about the scale Montgomery County does, but it's also true that a lot of that $20 billion represents payments for state-like functions that Montgomery County doesn't engage in, so these direct $$ comparisons are sort of unhelpful. D.C. probably could stand up a proper public university that's on par with non-flagship state schools nearby if it wanted to. Would be interesting to see how that unfolded if someone in public office were to make a serious push for it.

I disagree with the idea that D.C. shouldn't become a state because it hasn't chosen to spend money in this way, though; statehood shouldn't be some kind of reward for "good" behavior. D.C. residents don't need to earn democracy.

You are incapable of doing math, so let me do it for you.

Per capita government spending (state + local, excl. federal) for a resident of Montgomery County = $17,500

Per capita government spending for a resident of DC = $30,000

Tell me more about these “state functions” when DC doesn’t even pay for its own criminal justice system. Corits, prosecutors, supervision, prisons all paid by the Feds.

Absolute joke.

D.C. pays for Medicaid, unemployment, "state" transportation shares, etc. More than 25 percent of the revenue the District takes in is from federal transfers. I'm not sure where your per capita government spending figures come from, though, so I don't have any idea how they relate to that. You're right that the feds pay for the criminal justice system, but I believe that money still gets captured in the D.C. budget figures; the D.C. Department of Corrections budget, for instance, seems to think virtually the entire agency's budget comes from "local funds," even if those funds originated as a grant from the feds: https://cfo.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/ocfo/publication/attachments/fl_doc_chapter_2023j.pdf

You probably don't disagree with me, anyway: D.C. could afford to run a non-elite public university, especially if the funds DCTAG uses got redirected there by Congress. You apparently were too busy trying to demonstrate how smart you are to realize that, though?

Apart from funding a substantial part of the Department of Corrections (and incarcerating DC prisoners), the Feds provide and fund most of the local prosecutor through the US Attorney's office. (The DC Attorney General has a role on under-age criminals.). While there is room to criticize the US Attorney's record in the past several years, the present structure saves the DC taxpayers a boatload of money and provides, on average, higher calibre prosecutors who are attracted to work as AUSAs rather than for the DC government.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would gladly shut down UDC and require to DC to contribute that money to a federal pot if it meant DC kids could get in-state tuition anywhere in the country.

-DC Resident

In-state tuition anywhere in the country would be amazing for D.C. residents, but I still don't see why any other state would want to agree to it. There's no way D.C. and the feds combined would kick in enough money to cover the full cost difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition for D.C. students. And it's not like most public universities -- especially affordable ones -- are in dire need of applicants such that they need to offer some incentive to D.C. residents to look there. Why would this come to pass, other than because it'd be good?

The out-of-state tuition number is completely made up by public university systems. It's basically the Suckers Rate and they are happy to have some wealthy OOS parent pay it in order for forgo raising tuition and/or taxes on local residents. The gap between in-state and OOS tuition grows wider every year and that's not because OOS kids simply "cost more" to the system. It's subsidy.

[Anonymous]

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jsteele wrote:

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jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Never. Poor kids can get financial aid. DC is broke and isn't going to spend more money to subsidize upper middle class kids' college degrees

It's federal money so it doesn't cost DC anything.

In 2021 Eleanor Holmes Norton succeeded in getting the House to pass an expanded program. But, that language was stripped by the Senate. Expanding DC TAG is normally one of Norton's priorities so I am sure she will keep trying. This year she may be distracted with the RFK transfer. You can read the discussion about Norton's previous attempt here:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/990354.page

I am not sure if she did anything with regard to DC TAG last year. If she did, I didn't hear about it.

Sh didn't. I kept expecting to see the announcement for an increase to $15,000. I mean, sure, the program was meant to close the gap between in state and OOS tuition, but the exponential rise in tuition makes this a nice grant, but nothing close to par. One thing people should know...it is now means tested.

That's too bad. The point of it was for DC residents to have some parity with the opportunities in the 50 states.

It's called UDC. If DC wants a research university, they can fund one. DC Tag should be cancelled or extended to all Americans

Then DC can tax MD and VA residents working in DC.

A commuter tax is prohibited by the Home Rule Act.

With the declining fiscal picture in DC I would NOT expect this amount to be increased any time soon.

Once again, DC TAG is federally funded. It has nothing to do with DC 's fiscal picture.

But DC should invest more in higher ed. In MD or VA my tax dollars would get me access to a range of more affordable colleges.

Virginia has 8.6 million residents, which is more than 10 times D.C.'s population. Maryland has 6.2 million. For D.C. to have even just one campus that's even just the same size as the UMD or UVA flagships, let alone on the same level of quality, would require raising taxes significantly on the residents we have.

UDC does now have a community college branch that's similar in affordability to Montgomery College or Nova Community College, though.

Perhaps it is similar in affordability, but not in quality. MoCo College and NVCC are among the best community colleges in the country. DC's is among the worst.

At least for schools like these TAG is great…assume it brings the cost to nearly $0.

These are not four year colleges. Families that stay in DC through HS deserve a break. The $$ is nominal. If the federal government want to insist we can’t have self determination then they can pony up the pittance to bring college costs on par with the average US state college.

This sentiment is silly (and I plan for my kids to graduate from DCPS high schools in a few years). Families don't "deserve" money just for living in D.C. If anything, they should be means-testing this benefit so it isn't primarily giving upper NW residents (like me) a discount on Big 10 schools.

Narrator: It is means tested already.

Is it? I'm not aware of any income limits on who's eligible for it.

Literally means tested for years.

https://osse.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/osse/publication/attachments/Information%20on%20DCTAG%20Maximum%20Income_2023.pdf

Ah, I didn't know this because my household earns well under the cap. Which, honestly, is a sign the cap should be lower.

DC makes the cap so high so rich people don't have another reason to move to MD or VA. They pay a lot more in taxes over 18+ years than DC "loses" in giving UMC kids some federal DCTAG money.

The more people who use a program, the more broad support there is for it.

The political incentives for DCTAG are a complete mess, though -- it's a federal program, so even if every household in D.C. used it, it wouldn't be broadly taken advantage of nationwide, plus the people eligible for it can't vote for someone who has a vote on whether to extend/expand/end/whatever it. The cap being higher or lower has virtually no effect on support for this program among the people who determine its future, none of whom represent anyone who can possibly use it.

DC people really do live in a different reality. I don’t think you could have a better example of hand out culture if you tried. What was originally set up as a pity program is now seen as an entitlement.

Here’s a better idea: tell the mayor and the Council to fund UDC at an adequate level. Tell UDC to go out and solicit donations from alumni and corporations. Tell UDC faculty to go out and get grants. Tell UDC to raise tuition. You know, the things that every other state university does to fund itself.

The problem isn’t the funding. The kids drawn to UDC are typically kids who barely got through high school. My coworker went there and her work is in a 5th grade level at best. Zero expectations from professors.

[Anonymous]

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jsteele wrote:

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jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Never. Poor kids can get financial aid. DC is broke and isn't going to spend more money to subsidize upper middle class kids' college degrees

It's federal money so it doesn't cost DC anything.

In 2021 Eleanor Holmes Norton succeeded in getting the House to pass an expanded program. But, that language was stripped by the Senate. Expanding DC TAG is normally one of Norton's priorities so I am sure she will keep trying. This year she may be distracted with the RFK transfer. You can read the discussion about Norton's previous attempt here:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/990354.page

I am not sure if she did anything with regard to DC TAG last year. If she did, I didn't hear about it.

Sh didn't. I kept expecting to see the announcement for an increase to $15,000. I mean, sure, the program was meant to close the gap between in state and OOS tuition, but the exponential rise in tuition makes this a nice grant, but nothing close to par. One thing people should know...it is now means tested.

That's too bad. The point of it was for DC residents to have some parity with the opportunities in the 50 states.

It's called UDC. If DC wants a research university, they can fund one. DC Tag should be cancelled or extended to all Americans

Then DC can tax MD and VA residents working in DC.

A commuter tax is prohibited by the Home Rule Act.

With the declining fiscal picture in DC I would NOT expect this amount to be increased any time soon.

Once again, DC TAG is federally funded. It has nothing to do with DC 's fiscal picture.

But DC should invest more in higher ed. In MD or VA my tax dollars would get me access to a range of more affordable colleges.

Virginia has 8.6 million residents, which is more than 10 times D.C.'s population. Maryland has 6.2 million. For D.C. to have even just one campus that's even just the same size as the UMD or UVA flagships, let alone on the same level of quality, would require raising taxes significantly on the residents we have.

UDC does now have a community college branch that's similar in affordability to Montgomery College or Nova Community College, though.

Perhaps it is similar in affordability, but not in quality. MoCo College and NVCC are among the best community colleges in the country. DC's is among the worst.

At least for schools like these TAG is great…assume it brings the cost to nearly $0.

These are not four year colleges. Families that stay in DC through HS deserve a break. The $$ is nominal. If the federal government want to insist we can’t have self determination then they can pony up the pittance to bring college costs on par with the average US state college.

This sentiment is silly (and I plan for my kids to graduate from DCPS high schools in a few years). Families don't "deserve" money just for living in D.C. If anything, they should be means-testing this benefit so it isn't primarily giving upper NW residents (like me) a discount on Big 10 schools.

Narrator: It is means tested already.

Is it? I'm not aware of any income limits on who's eligible for it.

Literally means tested for years.

https://osse.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/osse/publication/attachments/Information%20on%20DCTAG%20Maximum%20Income_2023.pdf

Ah, I didn't know this because my household earns well under the cap. Which, honestly, is a sign the cap should be lower.

DC makes the cap so high so rich people don't have another reason to move to MD or VA. They pay a lot more in taxes over 18+ years than DC "loses" in giving UMC kids some federal DCTAG money.

The more people who use a program, the more broad support there is for it.

The political incentives for DCTAG are a complete mess, though -- it's a federal program, so even if every household in D.C. used it, it wouldn't be broadly taken advantage of nationwide, plus the people eligible for it can't vote for someone who has a vote on whether to extend/expand/end/whatever it. The cap being higher or lower has virtually no effect on support for this program among the people who determine its future, none of whom represent anyone who can possibly use it.

DC people really do live in a different reality. I don’t think you could have a better example of hand out culture if you tried. What was originally set up as a pity program is now seen as an entitlement.

Here’s a better idea: tell the mayor and the Council to fund UDC at an adequate level. Tell UDC to go out and solicit donations from alumni and corporations. Tell UDC faculty to go out and get grants. Tell UDC to raise tuition. You know, the things that every other state university does to fund itself.

UDC will never be adequately funded as the District does not have a large enough tax base. The funding basis for powerhouse state schools is to tax the entire state and redistribute to the university system.

And can you point me to this wealth-off alumni base of UDC?!?! That's a laughable suggestion.

I get that UDC is a long-standing source of pride as an African-American land grant college. But there's soooooo many better options nearby that successfully graduate students on time and have strong professional networks + traditional college experiences - Howard, Bowie, Morgan State, etc. It would be better if DC young adults could just attend those at in-state prices.

Utter nonsense. The DC budget is over $20 billion dollars. The budget for the entire state of Maryland is $60 billion. The budget for Montgomery County is $7 billion. DC has plenty of money to fund higher education. It just chooses not to. It’s another reason why DC will never be a state.

It's true D.C. would have the money to fund education at about the scale Montgomery County does, but it's also true that a lot of that $20 billion represents payments for state-like functions that Montgomery County doesn't engage in, so these direct $$ comparisons are sort of unhelpful. D.C. probably could stand up a proper public university that's on par with non-flagship state schools nearby if it wanted to. Would be interesting to see how that unfolded if someone in public office were to make a serious push for it.

I disagree with the idea that D.C. shouldn't become a state because it hasn't chosen to spend money in this way, though; statehood shouldn't be some kind of reward for "good" behavior. D.C. residents don't need to earn democracy.

You are incapable of doing math, so let me do it for you.

Per capita government spending (state + local, excl. federal) for a resident of Montgomery County = $17,500

Per capita government spending for a resident of DC = $30,000

Tell me more about these “state functions” when DC doesn’t even pay for its own criminal justice system. Corits, prosecutors, supervision, prisons all paid by the Feds.

Absolute joke.

D.C. pays for Medicaid, unemployment, "state" transportation shares, etc. More than 25 percent of the revenue the District takes in is from federal transfers. I'm not sure where your per capita government spending figures come from, though, so I don't have any idea how they relate to that. You're right that the feds pay for the criminal justice system, but I believe that money still gets captured in the D.C. budget figures; the D.C. Department of Corrections budget, for instance, seems to think virtually the entire agency's budget comes from "local funds," even if those funds originated as a grant from the feds: https://cfo.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/ocfo/publication/attachments/fl_doc_chapter_2023j.pdf

You probably don't disagree with me, anyway: D.C. could afford to run a non-elite public university, especially if the funds DCTAG uses got redirected there by Congress. You apparently were too busy trying to demonstrate how smart you are to realize that, though?

The state of Maryland pays for all of these things too. DC is not special in any way except for being especially entitled in its belief that it should have federal handouts despite being so wasteful.

Here’s the math laid bare for you to understand.

MD state per capita spending is the state budget ($63 billion) divided by state population (6 million) = $10,500.

MC per capita spending is the county budget ($7 billion) divided by county population (1 million) = $7,000.

$10,500 + $7,000 = $17,500.

DC per capita spending is the city budget ($21 billion) divided by the city population (700,000) = $30,000.

Tell me what special expenses that DC pays again.

The idea that you think DC is owed federal TAG funds is a joke. Ultimate welfare mentality.

My point on the math is that it's totally meaningless to compare D.C.'s per-person spending to Montgomery County's just by dividing by population, because D.C. pays for stuff that Maryland pays for (in both cases, largely covered by federal money) that Montgomery County's budget doesn't include, but the D.C. budget does.

I don't see why you wouldn't give the D.C. TAG funding to the D.C. government if the D.C. government was funding a public university, since the entire point of the program is to somehow offset the fact that D.C. doesn't have a public university. But it costs a total of like $30 million a year, so fine, don't bother. If they had a real public university here, it would wind up getting more than that in federal support anyway.

Again, though, you're too busy being snotty to realize I am saying that yes, D.C. could choose to spend more on higher education and fund a public university system, which you also seem to be saying. If you'd rather call me names, that's great, but insulting someone who's agreeing with you is a stupid way to try to win an argument.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would gladly shut down UDC and require to DC to contribute that money to a federal pot if it meant DC kids could get in-state tuition anywhere in the country.

-DC Resident

In-state tuition anywhere in the country would be amazing for D.C. residents, but I still don't see why any other state would want to agree to it. There's no way D.C. and the feds combined would kick in enough money to cover the full cost difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition for D.C. students. And it's not like most public universities -- especially affordable ones -- are in dire need of applicants such that they need to offer some incentive to D.C. residents to look there. Why would this come to pass, other than because it'd be good?

The out-of-state tuition number is completely made up by public university systems. It's basically the Suckers Rate and they are happy to have some wealthy OOS parent pay it in order for forgo raising tuition and/or taxes on local residents. The gap between in-state and OOS tuition grows wider every year and that's not because OOS kids simply "cost more" to the system. It's subsidy.

Sure, but still, the states don't have any incentive to expand the number of students who are eligible to NOT pay the suckers rate.

[Anonymous]

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jsteele wrote:

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jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Never. Poor kids can get financial aid. DC is broke and isn't going to spend more money to subsidize upper middle class kids' college degrees

It's federal money so it doesn't cost DC anything.

In 2021 Eleanor Holmes Norton succeeded in getting the House to pass an expanded program. But, that language was stripped by the Senate. Expanding DC TAG is normally one of Norton's priorities so I am sure she will keep trying. This year she may be distracted with the RFK transfer. You can read the discussion about Norton's previous attempt here:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/990354.page

I am not sure if she did anything with regard to DC TAG last year. If she did, I didn't hear about it.

Sh didn't. I kept expecting to see the announcement for an increase to $15,000. I mean, sure, the program was meant to close the gap between in state and OOS tuition, but the exponential rise in tuition makes this a nice grant, but nothing close to par. One thing people should know...it is now means tested.

That's too bad. The point of it was for DC residents to have some parity with the opportunities in the 50 states.

It's called UDC. If DC wants a research university, they can fund one. DC Tag should be cancelled or extended to all Americans

Then DC can tax MD and VA residents working in DC.

A commuter tax is prohibited by the Home Rule Act.

With the declining fiscal picture in DC I would NOT expect this amount to be increased any time soon.

Once again, DC TAG is federally funded. It has nothing to do with DC 's fiscal picture.

But DC should invest more in higher ed. In MD or VA my tax dollars would get me access to a range of more affordable colleges.

Virginia has 8.6 million residents, which is more than 10 times D.C.'s population. Maryland has 6.2 million. For D.C. to have even just one campus that's even just the same size as the UMD or UVA flagships, let alone on the same level of quality, would require raising taxes significantly on the residents we have.

UDC does now have a community college branch that's similar in affordability to Montgomery College or Nova Community College, though.

Perhaps it is similar in affordability, but not in quality. MoCo College and NVCC are among the best community colleges in the country. DC's is among the worst.

At least for schools like these TAG is great…assume it brings the cost to nearly $0.

These are not four year colleges. Families that stay in DC through HS deserve a break. The $$ is nominal. If the federal government want to insist we can’t have self determination then they can pony up the pittance to bring college costs on par with the average US state college.

This sentiment is silly (and I plan for my kids to graduate from DCPS high schools in a few years). Families don't "deserve" money just for living in D.C. If anything, they should be means-testing this benefit so it isn't primarily giving upper NW residents (like me) a discount on Big 10 schools.

Narrator: It is means tested already.

Is it? I'm not aware of any income limits on who's eligible for it.

Literally means tested for years.

https://osse.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/osse/publication/attachments/Information%20on%20DCTAG%20Maximum%20Income_2023.pdf

Ah, I didn't know this because my household earns well under the cap. Which, honestly, is a sign the cap should be lower.

DC makes the cap so high so rich people don't have another reason to move to MD or VA. They pay a lot more in taxes over 18+ years than DC "loses" in giving UMC kids some federal DCTAG money.

The more people who use a program, the more broad support there is for it.

The political incentives for DCTAG are a complete mess, though -- it's a federal program, so even if every household in D.C. used it, it wouldn't be broadly taken advantage of nationwide, plus the people eligible for it can't vote for someone who has a vote on whether to extend/expand/end/whatever it. The cap being higher or lower has virtually no effect on support for this program among the people who determine its future, none of whom represent anyone who can possibly use it.

DC people really do live in a different reality. I don’t think you could have a better example of hand out culture if you tried. What was originally set up as a pity program is now seen as an entitlement.

Here’s a better idea: tell the mayor and the Council to fund UDC at an adequate level. Tell UDC to go out and solicit donations from alumni and corporations. Tell UDC faculty to go out and get grants. Tell UDC to raise tuition. You know, the things that every other state university does to fund itself.

UDC will never be adequately funded as the District does not have a large enough tax base. The funding basis for powerhouse state schools is to tax the entire state and redistribute to the university system.

And can you point me to this wealth-off alumni base of UDC?!?! That's a laughable suggestion.

I get that UDC is a long-standing source of pride as an African-American land grant college. But there's soooooo many better options nearby that successfully graduate students on time and have strong professional networks + traditional college experiences - Howard, Bowie, Morgan State, etc. It would be better if DC young adults could just attend those at in-state prices.

Utter nonsense. The DC budget is over $20 billion dollars. The budget for the entire state of Maryland is $60 billion. The budget for Montgomery County is $7 billion. DC has plenty of money to fund higher education. It just chooses not to. It’s another reason why DC will never be a state.

It's true D.C. would have the money to fund education at about the scale Montgomery County does, but it's also true that a lot of that $20 billion represents payments for state-like functions that Montgomery County doesn't engage in, so these direct $$ comparisons are sort of unhelpful. D.C. probably could stand up a proper public university that's on par with non-flagship state schools nearby if it wanted to. Would be interesting to see how that unfolded if someone in public office were to make a serious push for it.

I disagree with the idea that D.C. shouldn't become a state because it hasn't chosen to spend money in this way, though; statehood shouldn't be some kind of reward for "good" behavior. D.C. residents don't need to earn democracy.

You are incapable of doing math, so let me do it for you.

Per capita government spending (state + local, excl. federal) for a resident of Montgomery County = $17,500

Per capita government spending for a resident of DC = $30,000

Tell me more about these “state functions” when DC doesn’t even pay for its own criminal justice system. Corits, prosecutors, supervision, prisons all paid by the Feds.

Absolute joke.

D.C. pays for Medicaid, unemployment, "state" transportation shares, etc. More than 25 percent of the revenue the District takes in is from federal transfers. I'm not sure where your per capita government spending figures come from, though, so I don't have any idea how they relate to that. You're right that the feds pay for the criminal justice system, but I believe that money still gets captured in the D.C. budget figures; the D.C. Department of Corrections budget, for instance, seems to think virtually the entire agency's budget comes from "local funds," even if those funds originated as a grant from the feds: https://cfo.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/ocfo/publication/attachments/fl_doc_chapter_2023j.pdf

You probably don't disagree with me, anyway: D.C. could afford to run a non-elite public university, especially if the funds DCTAG uses got redirected there by Congress. You apparently were too busy trying to demonstrate how smart you are to realize that, though?

The state of Maryland pays for all of these things too. DC is not special in any way except for being especially entitled in its belief that it should have federal handouts despite being so wasteful.

Here’s the math laid bare for you to understand.

MD state per capita spending is the state budget ($63 billion) divided by state population (6 million) = $10,500.

MC per capita spending is the county budget ($7 billion) divided by county population (1 million) = $7,000.

$10,500 + $7,000 = $17,500.

DC per capita spending is the city budget ($21 billion) divided by the city population (700,000) = $30,000.

Tell me what special expenses that DC pays again.

The idea that you think DC is owed federal TAG funds is a joke. Ultimate welfare mentality.

My point on the math is that it's totally meaningless to compare D.C.'s per-person spending to Montgomery County's just by dividing by population, because D.C. pays for stuff that Maryland pays for (in both cases, largely covered by federal money) that Montgomery County's budget doesn't include, but the D.C. budget does.

I don't see why you wouldn't give the D.C. TAG funding to the D.C. government if the D.C. government was funding a public university, since the entire point of the program is to somehow offset the fact that D.C. doesn't have a public university. But it costs a total of like $30 million a year, so fine, don't bother. If they had a real public university here, it would wind up getting more than that in federal support anyway.

Again, though, you're too busy being snotty to realize I am saying that yes, D.C. could choose to spend more on higher education and fund a public university system, which you also seem to be saying. If you'd rather call me names, that's great, but insulting someone who's agreeing with you is a stupid way to try to win an argument.

Did you not see that the PP provided a total for MC residents that included state per capita spending ($10,500) and county per capita spending ($7,000) to arrive at a total ($17,500) and compared it to DC ($30,000)?

It’s flabbergasting to see you respond that these are not apples to apples comparisons when as another PP notes, the Federal government pays for basically all of DC’s criminal justice system.

I have a lot of sympathy that UDC is dysfunctional and terrible. However that’s also not a great excuse for Federal taxpayers to pay for a benefit only for DC residents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would gladly shut down UDC and require to DC to contribute that money to a federal pot if it meant DC kids could get in-state tuition anywhere in the country.

-DC Resident

In-state tuition anywhere in the country would be amazing for D.C. residents, but I still don't see why any other state would want to agree to it. There's no way D.C. and the feds combined would kick in enough money to cover the full cost difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition for D.C. students. And it's not like most public universities -- especially affordable ones -- are in dire need of applicants such that they need to offer some incentive to D.C. residents to look there. Why would this come to pass, other than because it'd be good?

The out-of-state tuition number is completely made up by public university systems. It's basically the Suckers Rate and they are happy to have some wealthy OOS parent pay it in order for forgo raising tuition and/or taxes on local residents. The gap between in-state and OOS tuition grows wider every year and that's not because OOS kids simply "cost more" to the system. It's subsidy.

Sure, but still, the states don't have any incentive to expand the number of students who are eligible to NOT pay the suckers rate.

It depends on the state. In many states
OOS tuition is the difference in per student cost minus state subsidies. So if the state budgets $1.5 billion for higher education to serve 50,000 students then the OOS tuition is set at 30,000 higher per student to offset.

In practice however, state universities love OOS students and take as many as they can without upsetting the legislature in order to maximize revenue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would gladly shut down UDC and require to DC to contribute that money to a federal pot if it meant DC kids could get in-state tuition anywhere in the country.

-DC Resident

In-state tuition anywhere in the country would be amazing for D.C. residents, but I still don't see why any other state would want to agree to it. There's no way D.C. and the feds combined would kick in enough money to cover the full cost difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition for D.C. students. And it's not like most public universities -- especially affordable ones -- are in dire need of applicants such that they need to offer some incentive to D.C. residents to look there. Why would this come to pass, other than because it'd be good?

The out-of-state tuition number is completely made up by public university systems. It's basically the Suckers Rate and they are happy to have some wealthy OOS parent pay it in order for forgo raising tuition and/or taxes on local residents. The gap between in-state and OOS tuition grows wider every year and that's not because OOS kids simply "cost more" to the system. It's subsidy.

Sure, but still, the states don't have any incentive to expand the number of students who are eligible to NOT pay the suckers rate.

It depends on the state. In many states
OOS tuition is the difference in per student cost minus state subsidies. So if the state budgets $1.5 billion for higher education to serve 50,000 students then the OOS tuition is set at 30,000 higher per student to offset.

In practice however, state universities love OOS students and take as many as they can without upsetting the legislature in order to maximize revenue.

There's no state where the residents of the state would be better off if D.C. residents also got in-state tuition to their state universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would gladly shut down UDC and require to DC to contribute that money to a federal pot if it meant DC kids could get in-state tuition anywhere in the country.

-DC Resident

In-state tuition anywhere in the country would be amazing for D.C. residents, but I still don't see why any other state would want to agree to it. There's no way D.C. and the feds combined would kick in enough money to cover the full cost difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition for D.C. students. And it's not like most public universities -- especially affordable ones -- are in dire need of applicants such that they need to offer some incentive to D.C. residents to look there. Why would this come to pass, other than because it'd be good?

The out-of-state tuition number is completely made up by public university systems. It's basically the Suckers Rate and they are happy to have some wealthy OOS parent pay it in order for forgo raising tuition and/or taxes on local residents. The gap between in-state and OOS tuition grows wider every year and that's not because OOS kids simply "cost more" to the system. It's subsidy.

Sure, but still, the states don't have any incentive to expand the number of students who are eligible to NOT pay the suckers rate.

It depends on the state. In many states
OOS tuition is the difference in per student cost minus state subsidies. So if the state budgets $1.5 billion for higher education to serve 50,000 students then the OOS tuition is set at 30,000 higher per student to offset.

In practice however, state universities love OOS students and take as many as they can without upsetting the legislature in order to maximize revenue.

That's may be the theory. In reality, they charge as much as they can while maintaining the applicant pool that they want. For some schools like Alabama or Arizona, it means free. For others like Berkley it means they will bleed out of state students dry

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Would gladly shut down UDC and require to DC to contribute that money to a federal pot if it meant DC kids could get in-state tuition anywhere in the country.

-DC Resident

In-state tuition anywhere in the country would be amazing for D.C. residents, but I still don't see why any other state would want to agree to it. There's no way D.C. and the feds combined would kick in enough money to cover the full cost difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition for D.C. students. And it's not like most public universities -- especially affordable ones -- are in dire need of applicants such that they need to offer some incentive to D.C. residents to look there. Why would this come to pass, other than because it'd be good?

The out-of-state tuition number is completely made up by public university systems. It's basically the Suckers Rate and they are happy to have some wealthy OOS parent pay it in order for forgo raising tuition and/or taxes on local residents. The gap between in-state and OOS tuition grows wider every year and that's not because OOS kids simply "cost more" to the system. It's subsidy.

Sure, but still, the states don't have any incentive to expand the number of students who are eligible to NOT pay the suckers rate.

It depends on the state. In many states
OOS tuition is the difference in per student cost minus state subsidies. So if the state budgets $1.5 billion for higher education to serve 50,000 students then the OOS tuition is set at 30,000 higher per student to offset.

In practice however, state universities love OOS students and take as many as they can without upsetting the legislature in order to maximize revenue.

There's no state where the residents of the state would be better off if D.C. residents also got in-state tuition to their state universities.

Exactly. The best option for everyone is for the DC government to fund and support UDC at an adequate level so that it can be a real option for DC residents.

[Anonymous]

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jsteele wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Never. Poor kids can get financial aid. DC is broke and isn't going to spend more money to subsidize upper middle class kids' college degrees

It's federal money so it doesn't cost DC anything.

In 2021 Eleanor Holmes Norton succeeded in getting the House to pass an expanded program. But, that language was stripped by the Senate. Expanding DC TAG is normally one of Norton's priorities so I am sure she will keep trying. This year she may be distracted with the RFK transfer. You can read the discussion about Norton's previous attempt here:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/990354.page

I am not sure if she did anything with regard to DC TAG last year. If she did, I didn't hear about it.

Sh didn't. I kept expecting to see the announcement for an increase to $15,000. I mean, sure, the program was meant to close the gap between in state and OOS tuition, but the exponential rise in tuition makes this a nice grant, but nothing close to par. One thing people should know...it is now means tested.

That's too bad. The point of it was for DC residents to have some parity with the opportunities in the 50 states.

It's called UDC. If DC wants a research university, they can fund one. DC Tag should be cancelled or extended to all Americans

Then DC can tax MD and VA residents working in DC.

A commuter tax is prohibited by the Home Rule Act.

With the declining fiscal picture in DC I would NOT expect this amount to be increased any time soon.

Once again, DC TAG is federally funded. It has nothing to do with DC 's fiscal picture.

But DC should invest more in higher ed. In MD or VA my tax dollars would get me access to a range of more affordable colleges.

Virginia has 8.6 million residents, which is more than 10 times D.C.'s population. Maryland has 6.2 million. For D.C. to have even just one campus that's even just the same size as the UMD or UVA flagships, let alone on the same level of quality, would require raising taxes significantly on the residents we have.

UDC does now have a community college branch that's similar in affordability to Montgomery College or Nova Community College, though.

Perhaps it is similar in affordability, but not in quality. MoCo College and NVCC are among the best community colleges in the country. DC's is among the worst.

At least for schools like these TAG is great…assume it brings the cost to nearly $0.

These are not four year colleges. Families that stay in DC through HS deserve a break. The $$ is nominal. If the federal government want to insist we can’t have self determination then they can pony up the pittance to bring college costs on par with the average US state college.

This sentiment is silly (and I plan for my kids to graduate from DCPS high schools in a few years). Families don't "deserve" money just for living in D.C. If anything, they should be means-testing this benefit so it isn't primarily giving upper NW residents (like me) a discount on Big 10 schools.

Narrator: It is means tested already.

Is it? I'm not aware of any income limits on who's eligible for it.

Literally means tested for years.

https://osse.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/osse/publication/attachments/Information%20on%20DCTAG%20Maximum%20Income_2023.pdf

Ah, I didn't know this because my household earns well under the cap. Which, honestly, is a sign the cap should be lower.

DC makes the cap so high so rich people don't have another reason to move to MD or VA. They pay a lot more in taxes over 18+ years than DC "loses" in giving UMC kids some federal DCTAG money.

The more people who use a program, the more broad support there is for it.

The political incentives for DCTAG are a complete mess, though -- it's a federal program, so even if every household in D.C. used it, it wouldn't be broadly taken advantage of nationwide, plus the people eligible for it can't vote for someone who has a vote on whether to extend/expand/end/whatever it. The cap being higher or lower has virtually no effect on support for this program among the people who determine its future, none of whom represent anyone who can possibly use it.

DC people really do live in a different reality. I don’t think you could have a better example of hand out culture if you tried. What was originally set up as a pity program is now seen as an entitlement.

Here’s a better idea: tell the mayor and the Council to fund UDC at an adequate level. Tell UDC to go out and solicit donations from alumni and corporations. Tell UDC faculty to go out and get grants. Tell UDC to raise tuition. You know, the things that every other state university does to fund itself.

The problem isn’t the funding. The kids drawn to UDC are typically kids who barely got through high school. My coworker went there and her work is in a 5th grade level at best. Zero expectations from professors.

DCTAG creates an adverse selection problem for UDC because it financially incentivizes highly qualified students looking to attend a state university to do so outside of DC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Never. Poor kids can get financial aid. DC is broke and isn't going to spend more money to subsidize upper middle class kids' college degrees

It's federal money so it doesn't cost DC anything.

In 2021 Eleanor Holmes Norton succeeded in getting the House to pass an expanded program. But, that language was stripped by the Senate. Expanding DC TAG is normally one of Norton's priorities so I am sure she will keep trying. This year she may be distracted with the RFK transfer. You can read the discussion about Norton's previous attempt here:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/990354.page

I am not sure if she did anything with regard to DC TAG last year. If she did, I didn't hear about it.

Sh didn't. I kept expecting to see the announcement for an increase to $15,000. I mean, sure, the program was meant to close the gap between in state and OOS tuition, but the exponential rise in tuition makes this a nice grant, but nothing close to par. One thing people should know...it is now means tested.

That's too bad. The point of it was for DC residents to have some parity with the opportunities in the 50 states.

It's called UDC. If DC wants a research university, they can fund one. DC Tag should be cancelled or extended to all Americans

Then DC can tax MD and VA residents working in DC.

A commuter tax is prohibited by the Home Rule Act.

With the declining fiscal picture in DC I would NOT expect this amount to be increased any time soon.

Once again, DC TAG is federally funded. It has nothing to do with DC 's fiscal picture.

But DC should invest more in higher ed. In MD or VA my tax dollars would get me access to a range of more affordable colleges.

Virginia has 8.6 million residents, which is more than 10 times D.C.'s population. Maryland has 6.2 million. For D.C. to have even just one campus that's even just the same size as the UMD or UVA flagships, let alone on the same level of quality, would require raising taxes significantly on the residents we have.

UDC does now have a community college branch that's similar in affordability to Montgomery College or Nova Community College, though.

Perhaps it is similar in affordability, but not in quality. MoCo College and NVCC are among the best community colleges in the country. DC's is among the worst.

At least for schools like these TAG is great…assume it brings the cost to nearly $0.

These are not four year colleges. Families that stay in DC through HS deserve a break. The $$ is nominal. If the federal government want to insist we can’t have self determination then they can pony up the pittance to bring college costs on par with the average US state college.

This sentiment is silly (and I plan for my kids to graduate from DCPS high schools in a few years). Families don't "deserve" money just for living in D.C. If anything, they should be means-testing this benefit so it isn't primarily giving upper NW residents (like me) a discount on Big 10 schools.

Narrator: It is means tested already.

Is it? I'm not aware of any income limits on who's eligible for it.

Literally means tested for years.

https://osse.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/osse/publication/attachments/Information%20on%20DCTAG%20Maximum%20Income_2023.pdf

Ah, I didn't know this because my household earns well under the cap. Which, honestly, is a sign the cap should be lower.

DC makes the cap so high so rich people don't have another reason to move to MD or VA. They pay a lot more in taxes over 18+ years than DC "loses" in giving UMC kids some federal DCTAG money.

The more people who use a program, the more broad support there is for it.

The political incentives for DCTAG are a complete mess, though -- it's a federal program, so even if every household in D.C. used it, it wouldn't be broadly taken advantage of nationwide, plus the people eligible for it can't vote for someone who has a vote on whether to extend/expand/end/whatever it. The cap being higher or lower has virtually no effect on support for this program among the people who determine its future, none of whom represent anyone who can possibly use it.

DC people really do live in a different reality. I don’t think you could have a better example of hand out culture if you tried. What was originally set up as a pity program is now seen as an entitlement.

Here’s a better idea: tell the mayor and the Council to fund UDC at an adequate level. Tell UDC to go out and solicit donations from alumni and corporations. Tell UDC faculty to go out and get grants. Tell UDC to raise tuition. You know, the things that every other state university does to fund itself.

The problem isn’t the funding. The kids drawn to UDC are typically kids who barely got through high school. My coworker went there and her work is in a 5th grade level at best. Zero expectations from professors.

DCTAG creates an adverse selection problem for UDC because it financially incentivizes highly qualified students looking to attend a state university to do so outside of DC.

DCTAG isn't creating this problem, it was responding to the problem of UDC's perceived quality (or lack thereof).

If D.C. funded an actually good UDC, the $10,000 a year from DCTAG wouldn't be enough to offset the significantly lower tuition for in-District residents; DCTAG would be useful if you had your heart set on going to Michigan or Berkeley or something and just wanted a discount, but if you were deciding between UDC and, say, a non-flagship state school elsewhere, UDC would be a better bet. But only if it were a better school than it is now.