Big 5 = "most desired" schools, not necessarily "the best"

[Anonymous]

To the 20:19 poster - As a fellow Harvard student as well as a Seven Sisters grad, please don't show that typical Harvard pompous nature and talk about "people at the top of their game" when you compare the larger universities with the smaller colleges. Discuss your preferences but don't denigrate others' choices.

I happened to love every bucolic college town moment during my undergrad years and quite frankly, had professors who were at the top of their game and could run rings around most of my Harvard professors. A significant number of my classmates went on to win major international recognition - probably because they were showered with attention by their professors.

If you prefer Harvard, explain your reasons. Acting like Larry Summers though will never get you admired or your thoughts respected.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I actually think the National Merit Scholarship Semifinalist and college data are more illuminating than the demand data. The NMSSF and college data are based on actual results, not on peoples' subjective and possibly very irrational perceptions. As an economist, I think that decision-making is frequently subject to all sorts of irrational factors like the desire for status and the perceived quality of an education rather than its actual quality. Maybe that's why I see the demand data as really just a step away from what we usually see here on DCUM -- i.e. a group of people (at a single school no less) who are making very subjective judgments about quality.

The college data is actually great for the MD publics. But you have to buy the Bethesda Magazine for this month, which I did at Whole Foods, to see it for the six MD publics for about 400 colleges.

But unfortunately this sort of college data simply doesn't exist for the privates. Unless families on DCUM that have access to it and are willing to post it....

And I guess it needs to be said again, although several people have said it pages ago: nobody, but nobody, thinks that NMSSF or Ivy admittances are the be-all-and-end-all of choosing a school for your kid. I think we can all agree that finding the best fit for your kid is what really counts.

I think we'd all like to see threads about what schools work for whom, and why -- but for some reason, we can't bring ourselves to conduct this sort of discussion rationally, without descending into catfights within a page or two. Worse, the catfights never include anything helpful, like why somebody's kid likes St. Pats, instead it's just a bunch of people accusing each other of being boosters. So I've given up on that route, I just can't bring myself to read anymore threads on why Maret is better than GDS, or WIS is better than Potomac,, or St. Pats is better than all of them -- sorry!

That said, this has been a helpful excercise in identifying the limited datapoints that are out there, which in my view is an improvement over reading endless cat fights about whose school is better.

Geez, maybe this is Larry Summers. If so, please find some better ways to focus your time. My 401k needs it.

Hey Larry, hope you didn't try and teach the concept of Rational Choice Theory to your students - you seem to have missed that one during your doctoral studies - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Geez, maybe this is Larry Summers. If so, please find some better ways to focus your time. My 401k needs it.

Hey Larry, hope you didn't try and teach the concept of Rational Choice Theory to your students - you seem to have missed that one during your doctoral studies - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory

Clever. But didn't you (or someone like you) make the same argument a few pages back? One big flaw is your one year of Norwood data is too small and narrow a sample to draw any conclusions. If you can get some real data for all the schools, then maybe this might make some sense. Can you get any real data for us?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To the 20:19 poster - As a fellow Harvard student as well as a Seven Sisters grad, please don't show that typical Harvard pompous nature and talk about "people at the top of their game" when you compare the larger universities with the smaller colleges. Discuss your preferences but don't denigrate others' choices.

I happened to love every bucolic college town moment during my undergrad years and quite frankly, had professors who were at the top of their game and could run rings around most of my Harvard professors. A significant number of my classmates went on to win major international recognition - probably because they were showered with attention by their professors.

If you prefer Harvard, explain your reasons. Acting like Larry Summers though will never get you admired or your thoughts respected.

Why is this post any more acceptable than the one it criticizes?

[Anonymous]

There is nothing inherently wrong with ranking schools as along as methodology and metrics are clear. Of course, certain methodologies have limitations that may not always be apparent or understood.

[Anonymous]

Here's a useful article for thinking through "demand" as a measure of prestige. Absolute numbers are interesting (Harvard got almost 5x as many applications as Williams last year) as are annual fluctuations. It'd be interesting to see how many apps large state schools get (not included here). I think ASU has a freshman class of over 9,000 -- does that make it a better school than Swarthmore where fewer than 6,000 students applied? No, Swarthmore's more selective -- it turns down a higher percentage. By that measure, Deep Springs is probably the best school in America -- some years it admits only 6% of its applicants. Are two schools that admit the same % of students equally selective? Even if the admittees at one of those schools have much better credentials and admittees to both schools routinely choose that one over the other?

Williams College’s Applications Drop 20% as Economy Takes Toll

By Janet Frankston Lorin

March 10 (Bloomberg) -- Applications for admission plunged 20 percent at Williams College as fewer students sought entry at seven of the eight top-rated liberal-arts colleges in the U.S.

Swarthmore College, ranked third best among liberal-arts institutions by U.S. News and World Report, drew 10 percent fewer applicants than last year, said Jim Bock, dean of admissions. Fifth-ranked Middlebury College had a 12 percent applications decline, said Robert Clagett, dean of admissions.

Families facing higher taxes and declines in investments and home values are balking at the costs of private liberal-arts colleges that can reach $50,000 a year, said Linda Moses, a New York banker whose son will attend the University of Chicago after being accepted early.

“I told my kids that below a certain level of private college, it’s more reasonable to go to a public school,” Moses said in an interview. “I am willing to stretch for Chicago, but for not every school.”

The decline in applications may mean students have a better chance gaining admission to the liberal-arts schools, said Jonathan Reider, director of college counseling at San Francisco University High School, and a former admissions officer at Stanford University near Palo Alto, California.

Williams, in Williamstown, Massachusetts, turned down the majority of applicants last year, admitting only 17 percent, said Richard Nesbitt, director of admissions. Williams has about 2,000 undergraduates, according to its Web site.

Increase at Wellesley

A low acceptance rate is one factor used by U.S. News & World Report in determining school rankings, according to the magazine’s Web site.

Amherst College, in Amherst, Massachusetts, saw applications fall 1 percent, said Tom Parker, dean of admissions. The school received 7,664 applications, Parker said, and has 1,683 students, its Web site says.

Applications also fell by 3.5 percent to 4,782 at Carleton College in Northfield, Minnesota, said Eric Sieger, a school spokesman. According to its Web site, 1,986 students attend.

Bowdoin College in Brunswick, Maine, received 5,938 applications, down 1.6 percent from last year, said Doug Boxer- Cook, a spokesman. Currently, 1,716 students attend the school, he said. At Pomona College in Claremont, California, the school received 6,151 applications, down 2.2 percent, said Bruce Poch, dean of admissions. About 1,520 students are enrolled, its Web site says.

Only Wellesley College, in Wellesley, Massachusetts, among the top eight liberal arts schools ranked by U.S. News, is reporting an increase. Applications rose 2 percent, to about 4,200 this year, said Arlie Corday, a school spokeswoman. Currently, 2,231 students attend the all-women’s college, she said.

Ivy League Applications

Applications at all eight Ivy League universities in the Northeast U.S. rose, according to admissions deans or public- relations officials at each of the schools.

Harvard College, in Cambridge, Massachusetts, received about 29,000 applications, a 5.6 percent gain from a year earlier, according to Robert Mitchell, a spokesman for the school. Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut, got 26,003 applications, 14 percent more than last year, said Jeff Brenzel, dean of undergraduate admissions. Princeton University in Princeton, New Jersey, received 21,869 applications, a 2 percent increase from last year, according to Cass Cliatt, a school spokeswoman.

Last year, applications at Williams increased 17 percent to a record 7,552, Nesbitt said. That happened after Williams eliminated loans in November 2007, instead giving students more grants. Williams received 6,024 applications this year, he said.

‘Economy Has Effect’

“Certainly the economy has to have an effect,” Nesbitt said. “Some of these kids might have applied to 14 schools last year. Instead of 14, they’re applying to 10 now and maybe the last four are lower-cost public institutions.”

Perhaps, “bigger-name research universities are being kept on the list” and liberal-arts schools with fewer students are being dropped, Nesbitt said. Williams continues to attract “extraordinary” applicants, he said.

“We still have the third-highest number we’ve had in the history of the college,” Nesbitt said. “It’s not like we are suffering for lack of quality.”

Middlebury, in Middlebury, Vermont, received 6,904 applications this year, down from the record 7,823 last year, said Clagett. Middlebury has about 2,350 undergraduates, according to its Web site.

Swarthmore, in Swarthmore, Pennsylvania, got 5,626 applications, down from the record 6,241 last year, Bock said. Swarthmore has 1,490 undergraduates, according to its Web site.

“This year it might be about the money,” Bock said. “We just don’t know.”

To contact the reporter on this story: Janet Frankston Lorin in New York [e-mail].

[Anonymous]

I would not rely upon the above article. Don't know where Lorin got her information. Have recently read that Williams and Middlebury greatly exceeded previous records. Smith beat Wellesley with record-breaking apps by a mile.

In fact, most of the prestigious colleges and universities in this country saw more applications this year when it was assumed that they would go down. Just like the private schools here - apps were way up everywhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Geez, maybe this is Larry Summers. If so, please find some better ways to focus your time. My 401k needs it.

Hey Larry, hope you didn't try and teach the concept of Rational Choice Theory to your students - you seem to have missed that one during your doctoral studies - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory

Nope, not Larry. Apparently you aren't an economics wiz yourself, because you completely missed the point. This isn't a post in favor of rational choice theory -- it's AGAINST it. The point it's making is that demand, including for private schools, is NOT always completely rational.

So next time read the post instead of trying to be cute, because the cute joke failed miserably....

[Anonymous]

9:40 here again. Sorry for that post, I shouldn't have answered snark with more snark. I guess when I start to lose patience so quickly, it's time to leave DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would not rely upon the above article. Don't know where Lorin got her information. Have recently read that Williams and Middlebury greatly exceeded previous records. Smith beat Wellesley with record-breaking apps by a mile.

In fact, most of the prestigious colleges and universities in this country saw more applications this year when it was assumed that they would go down. Just like the private schools here - apps were way up everywhere.

I would not rely on the above post, LOL! Sourcing is clear from the article (she interviewed admissions directors) and Williams's own website provides comparable data (approx 7500 apps last year; approx 6000 this year). And, as the article explained, Ivy applications went up while applications to the most prestigious liberal arts colleges went down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:9:40 here again. Sorry for that post, I shouldn't have answered snark with more snark. I guess when I start to lose patience so quickly, it's time to leave DCUM.

11 pages certainly isn't quickly -- but I think this thread has just about run its course.

[Anonymous]

Before we wrap this thread up completely, some folks might this article helpful: http://www.bethesdamagazine.com/oct09/rethinking-rankings.php

It's from Bethesda Magazine and compares the US News and Newsweek college ranking indices. It's interesting, plus it starts out with a quote from somebody here at DCUM!

Sorry, but they didn't make the high school college acceptance data available online.

[Anonymous]

I guess it's time to stop admitting that I got my BA from Williams, now that it's a second-rate school! In all honesty, some kids thrive in an intimate, intense environment, and some don't. I don't think I would have had the opportunity to run the day to day activities of a research lab for two years as an undergrad at a school that had grad students and postdocs.

If my kids choose Harvard or another big university instead of a small liberal arts school I'd be fine with it. And if they don't have that option because of weak academics, then we are both a little bit to blame, or maybe they just didn't want that for themselves.

Now if they choose Amherst, we'll have to have a talk. . .

[Anonymous]

10:05 - As a Smith alum, I recently received their e-zine explaining how they broke all records for apps this year leading the 7 Sisters. My niece, a Middlebury grad, also showed me her alumn mag offering essentially the same "apps up significantly." Sometimes, it's just not convenient to post all the background info.

I will also say as someone who is interviewed alot, all the media types have agendas. An article doesn't create buzz unless it creates controversy or "dire" news. Writers can spin quite well.

[Anonymous]

Middlebury's own website also confirms the numbers in the article. And the article didn't even mention Smith. It's nice to have another data point, but if the number of applications increased at Smith last year, that's certainly not evidence that the reporting in article is unreliable.

As for spin -- no reason to believe that alumni/ae magazine writers aren't as capable of it as Bloomberg reporters.