Harvard Class of 2020

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The thread symbolizes America for the last 2 decades. The Latinos. Asians, and Indians never bitch about the admissions process. Its always the whites pointing out that the blacks that get admitted are objectively less qualified than those who were refused admission from these other groups and the blacks steadfatly refusing to acknowledge that reality.

This is so not true. My Asian friends talk about it all the time with me and I'm African-American. They understand full well that the bigger problem lies with white legacy and athlete admits, especially at elite schools.

[Anonymous]

Interesting discussion. Not sure what the answer is really.
However, I think that part of the reason everyone including international students are all clamouring to get into US colleges is partly because US colleges are considered a melting pot of diversity and varying interests and abilities. Of course, we all know higher ed here is not that utopian, affluent high SES white and Asian kids make up the majority of students but there is a somewhat real perception that you will mix with all kinds of people at college and those types of interactions lead to a lot of personal growth in addition to academic growth. Other factors obviously include living away from home, not being pigeon holed into a career path right away and numerous extracurricular opportunities. However, my main point is that most countries base admissions on only grades, GPAs and test scores and their college experiences are considered less progressive and inferior to the US system. I worry that the push to only look at grades and test scores will lead to College campuses being less interesting and the college experience will end up being diminished for everyone. Of course, the Achilles heel of US college education compared to other countries is cost.

[Anonymous]

As an asian parent I'm not advocating for looking at only grades and test scores but to remove the artificial quotas based on skin color. Commitments and talents to other activities and your critical thinking as conveyed on the essays should matter but comparison and selection ideally wouldn't be within buckets defined as children who are yellow, brown or peach. If you get down to it they're just different mixes of red, green and white. It's having people with a variety of experiences that make for an interesting cultural mix. I grew up yellow and very poor. I bet my scars and growth from those years is more similar to black and very poor than not.

[Anonymous]

I think that it should be a totally merit based system. No one gets preference/a bump because they're a legacy, or they're black, or they're from North Dakota.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As an asian parent I'm not advocating for looking at only grades and test scores but to remove the artificial quotas based on skin color. Commitments and talents to other activities and your critical thinking as conveyed on the essays should matter but comparison and selection ideally wouldn't be within buckets defined as children who are yellow, brown or peach. If you get down to it they're just different mixes of red, green and white. It's having people with a variety of experiences that make for an interesting cultural mix. I grew up yellow and very poor. I bet my scars and growth from those years is more similar to black and very poor than not.

I'm black and agree with this in theory, but how should a school measure diversity, if it is something they value? Also race is not just skin color, it is a social construct we live under in the US (like it or not). I'd love it if all advantages were thrown out for EVERYONE. I just don't understand why black students get attacked in these discussions when they make up such a small percentage at any of these top schools. It is truly tiny. Why isn't the focus on legacy and athletic advantage, that's what hurts Asian admits more.


The problem is at the tippy top schools no one really truly knows how they make their selections and honestly the private schools can do whatever they please. They are not reliant on government funding. And NIH for example is not going to stop giving research grants to Harvard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an asian parent I'm not advocating for looking at only grades and test scores but to remove the artificial quotas based on skin color. Commitments and talents to other activities and your critical thinking as conveyed on the essays should matter but comparison and selection ideally wouldn't be within buckets defined as children who are yellow, brown or peach. If you get down to it they're just different mixes of red, green and white. It's having people with a variety of experiences that make for an interesting cultural mix. I grew up yellow and very poor. I bet my scars and growth from those years is more similar to black and very poor than not.

I'm black and agree with this in theory, but how should a school measure diversity, if it is something they value? Also race is not just skin color, it is a social construct we live under in the US (like it or not). I'd love it if all advantages were thrown out for EVERYONE. I just don't understand why black students get attacked in these discussions when they make up such a small percentage at any of these top schools. It is truly tiny. Why isn't the focus on legacy and athletic advantage, that's what hurts Asian admits more.


The problem is at the tippy top schools no one really truly knows how they make their selections and honestly the private schools can do whatever they please. They are not reliant on government funding. And NIH for example is not going to stop giving research grants to Harvard.

If you could show legacy/athlete admits had SAT scores, GPAs, AP test score averages several deviations below the mean for the entering class then the justification is plausible. Studies show this is true for black applicants and that is why there is such outrage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thread symbolizes America for the last 2 decades. The Latinos. Asians, and Indians never bitch about the admissions process. Its always the whites pointing out that the blacks that get admitted are objectively less qualified than those who were refused admission from these other groups and the blacks steadfatly refusing to acknowledge that reality.

This is so not true. My Asian friends talk about it all the time with me and I'm African-American. They understand full well that the bigger problem lies with white legacy and athlete admits, especially at elite schools.

Which is it, they never bitch about it or they talk about it all the time?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think that it should be a totally merit based system. No one gets preference/a bump because they're a legacy, or they're black, or they're from North Dakota.

This has been studied and none of the students met certain markers later in life, like Nobel Peace Prize.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an asian parent I'm not advocating for looking at only grades and test scores but to remove the artificial quotas based on skin color. Commitments and talents to other activities and your critical thinking as conveyed on the essays should matter but comparison and selection ideally wouldn't be within buckets defined as children who are yellow, brown or peach. If you get down to it they're just different mixes of red, green and white. It's having people with a variety of experiences that make for an interesting cultural mix. I grew up yellow and very poor. I bet my scars and growth from those years is more similar to black and very poor than not.

I'm black and agree with this in theory, but how should a school measure diversity, if it is something they value? Also race is not just skin color, it is a social construct we live under in the US (like it or not). I'd love it if all advantages were thrown out for EVERYONE. I just don't understand why black students get attacked in these discussions when they make up such a small percentage at any of these top schools. It is truly tiny. Why isn't the focus on legacy and athletic advantage, that's what hurts Asian admits more.


The problem is at the tippy top schools no one really truly knows how they make their selections and honestly the private schools can do whatever they please. They are not reliant on government funding. And NIH for example is not going to stop giving research grants to Harvard.

If you could show legacy/athlete admits had SAT scores, GPAs, AP test score averages several deviations below the mean for the entering class then the justification is plausible. Studies show this is true for black applicants and that is why there is such outrage.

Please share the studies that show this and the colleges that were part of the study. This is not what we were told by our counselor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I'm black and agree with this in theory, but how should a school measure diversity, if it is something they value? Also race is not just skin color, it is a social construct we live under in the US (like it or not). I'd love it if all advantages were thrown out for EVERYONE. I just don't understand why black students get attacked in these discussions when they make up such a small percentage at any of these top schools. It is truly tiny. Why isn't the focus on legacy and athletic advantage, that's what hurts Asian admits more.

I wonder if it's because legacy and athletics are becoming less of a "guaranteed white" admittance. My DC has 2 close friends who are legacies at an Ivy, one child is white, the other is AA. She has another close friend who is a first generation american of asian descent, and that child's parents encourage significant participation in a sport hoping it will help give a boost to college options.

Assuming grades, test scores, etc are equivalent, I would expect a competitive school to give an AA legacy a slight edge over a white legacy, at least until they're getting a good number of AA legacy applicants (I would assume it's still a fairly small pool compared to white legacy applicants).

I would like to see us use SES instead of race. It would give a boost to the kids who truly need one. I think a lot of colleges are punting on real diversity by accepting wealthy kids over disadvantaged kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If there wasn't affirmative action for white people it would be 90% minority.

defend this. How do you figure?

NP It would look more like the California schools but not 90% Asian

California has a large population of Asians especially among "smart" cohort going to an elite school

vs the rest of the country which is still majority white especially at the "smart" cohort; in many places there are barely any asians at all

without Affirmative Action there would be barely any Hispanics or blacks at elite schools

So what percent are Asian at UC Berkeley now? Wouldn't Harvard look more like that in a fair, non "holistic" process?

More like that yes still Berkeley being in CA plays a role. If Berkeley was in another state the Asian stats would drop just like the Mexican stats would drop too

http://opa.berkeley.edu/uc-berkeley-fall-enrollment-data

Sidenote I will admit seeing an elite school with 20% Chinese makes me feel uncomfortable (I'm white)

I would be uncomfortable with 20% of an elite school being non-American.

Asian Americans wouldn't bother me, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'm black and agree with this in theory, but how should a school measure diversity, if it is something they value? Also race is not just skin color, it is a social construct we live under in the US (like it or not). I'd love it if all advantages were thrown out for EVERYONE. I just don't understand why black students get attacked in these discussions when they make up such a small percentage at any of these top schools. It is truly tiny. Why isn't the focus on legacy and athletic advantage, that's what hurts Asian admits more.

I wonder if it's because legacy and athletics are becoming less of a "guaranteed white" admittance. My DC has 2 close friends who are legacies at an Ivy, one child is white, the other is AA. She has another close friend who is a first generation american of asian descent, and that child's parents encourage significant participation in a sport hoping it will help give a boost to college options.

Assuming grades, test scores, etc are equivalent, I would expect a competitive school to give an AA legacy a slight edge over a white legacy, at least until they're getting a good number of AA legacy applicants (I would assume it's still a fairly small pool compared to white legacy applicants).

I would like to see us use SES instead of race. It would give a boost to the kids who truly need one. I think a lot of colleges are punting on real diversity by accepting wealthy kids over disadvantaged kids.

1000%. I saw this when we went to visit Tufts for example. If you are an athlete and can pay, you have a significant advantage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'm black and agree with this in theory, but how should a school measure diversity, if it is something they value? Also race is not just skin color, it is a social construct we live under in the US (like it or not). I'd love it if all advantages were thrown out for EVERYONE. I just don't understand why black students get attacked in these discussions when they make up such a small percentage at any of these top schools. It is truly tiny. Why isn't the focus on legacy and athletic advantage, that's what hurts Asian admits more.

I wonder if it's because legacy and athletics are becoming less of a "guaranteed white" admittance. My DC has 2 close friends who are legacies at an Ivy, one child is white, the other is AA. She has another close friend who is a first generation american of asian descent, and that child's parents encourage significant participation in a sport hoping it will help give a boost to college options.

Assuming grades, test scores, etc are equivalent, I would expect a competitive school to give an AA legacy a slight edge over a white legacy, at least until they're getting a good number of AA legacy applicants (I would assume it's still a fairly small pool compared to white legacy applicants).

I would like to see us use SES instead of race. It would give a boost to the kids who truly need one. I think a lot of colleges are punting on real diversity by accepting wealthy kids over disadvantaged kids.

1000%. I saw this when we went to visit Tufts for example. If you are an athlete and can pay, you have a significant advantage.

That is because they are providing a service to the school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'm black and agree with this in theory, but how should a school measure diversity, if it is something they value? Also race is not just skin color, it is a social construct we live under in the US (like it or not). I'd love it if all advantages were thrown out for EVERYONE. I just don't understand why black students get attacked in these discussions when they make up such a small percentage at any of these top schools. It is truly tiny. Why isn't the focus on legacy and athletic advantage, that's what hurts Asian admits more.

I wonder if it's because legacy and athletics are becoming less of a "guaranteed white" admittance. My DC has 2 close friends who are legacies at an Ivy, one child is white, the other is AA. She has another close friend who is a first generation american of asian descent, and that child's parents encourage significant participation in a sport hoping it will help give a boost to college options.

Assuming grades, test scores, etc are equivalent, I would expect a competitive school to give an AA legacy a slight edge over a white legacy, at least until they're getting a good number of AA legacy applicants (I would assume it's still a fairly small pool compared to white legacy applicants).

I would like to see us use SES instead of race. It would give a boost to the kids who truly need one. I think a lot of colleges are punting on real diversity by accepting wealthy kids over disadvantaged kids.

1000%. I saw this when we went to visit Tufts for example. If you are an athlete and can pay, you have a significant advantage.

How exactly did you see this at Tufts? And bear in mind that colleges are businesses and can only afford a certain amount of financial aid every year. Just because you're lower SES doesn't mean you are entitled to aid at a private university unless it is one of the handful that are blessed to be truly need-blind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an asian parent I'm not advocating for looking at only grades and test scores but to remove the artificial quotas based on skin color. Commitments and talents to other activities and your critical thinking as conveyed on the essays should matter but comparison and selection ideally wouldn't be within buckets defined as children who are yellow, brown or peach. If you get down to it they're just different mixes of red, green and white. It's having people with a variety of experiences that make for an interesting cultural mix. I grew up yellow and very poor. I bet my scars and growth from those years is more similar to black and very poor than not.

I'm black and agree with this in theory, but how should a school measure diversity, if it is something they value? Also race is not just skin color, it is a social construct we live under in the US (like it or not). I'd love it if all advantages were thrown out for EVERYONE. I just don't understand why black students get attacked in these discussions when they make up such a small percentage at any of these top schools. It is truly tiny. Why isn't the focus on legacy and athletic advantage, that's what hurts Asian admits more.


The problem is at the tippy top schools no one really truly knows how they make their selections and honestly the private schools can do whatever they please. They are not reliant on government funding. And NIH for example is not going to stop giving research grants to Harvard.

If you could show legacy/athlete admits had SAT scores, GPAs, AP test score averages several deviations below the mean for the entering class then the justification is plausible. Studies show this is true for black applicants and that is why there is such outrage.

I don't think you'll find such a study. We've sat through many admissions presentations at elite schools and a common theme you hear is that over 90% of applicants are qualified to be admitted, meaning they fall within the GPA/test score/etc. criteria. I think in general that legacy/athlete admits get a finger on the scale that differentiates them from their equally qualified peer group. With blacks and latinos the data clearly shows a different story....their quantifiable metrics fall below the mean cohort.