Insider Perspectives from a Highly Selective Admissions Office

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm really depressed by everything I'm hearing about the essay. The thing is that in my family we're pretty boring. We go to church and we eat dinner together and we eat vegetables and we mow the lawn.

I honestly don't think if you met my kid you'd think "Wow, what a fascinating individual!" You'd say -- Look, it's a white kid who plays the violin and takes advanced math. You probably wouldn't find me very fascinating either. None of us has eleventy thousand followers on Instagram. We dress in regular clothes -- nobody has dreadlocks or a nose ring or a tattoo.

In my mind, people who are charismatic and fascinating and quirky and funny are usually extroverts (which we're not in my family), and extremely self-confident (which no one in our family really is.). We're timid nerds who read books.

It feels a bit like you're saying that being invited to attend your university is like being invited to sit at the popular kid's table in the cafeteria in high school lunch period. I never sat there, but I always regarded that more as an accident of circumstance than as something I had to or could work on. Some of us are just less interesting. Kind of sad that these days you need to be brilliant AND fascinating, all by the age of 17.

PP (above) -- I totally relate. I've come to the conclusion that kids like ours go to state schools or non-competitive private schools. I admire and I'm impressed by the credentials of these applicants who are all around all-stars. "Where You Go is Not Who You'll Be" - gets me by. Read it.

Kids like yours go to excellent public schools and to many selective private schools where they can get great educations. They probably just don't go HYPS -- at least they're unlikely to if they come from an area like DC, NYC, LA, SF and don't have something exceptional going for them. So what? Why does everyone (smart? UMC?) need to go to HYPS for college? Even the smartest HS students will be intellectually challenged and have access to more resources than they can possibly make use of at a host of other very good schools. Go forth, timid nerds, and explore whatever city of learning you find yourself in!

I hate the popular kids' lunch table metaphor, but there's one aspect that's probably on point about it. It's the mopey, but for a fluke of fate, I coulda been among the chosen ones mentality it embodies. Don't pass that on to your kids! Tell them college is a great adventure, especially for book-loving nerds. No need to be timid, this is an environment where you can find people who love the things you love and where you will have the time/freedom/independence/resources to figure out what you want to do with your life. (Which probably isn't have lunch with the popular kids, LOL!).

Sorry for the tough love, but as a non-timid introverted book-loving nerd (who has taken or taught courses at a host of different colleges, from community college to HYPSs), it's a topic I feel really strongly about.

[Anonymous]

I was having similar thoughts to the PP who posted above about her kids not being very outgoing or quirky or at the popular kids lunch table. My daughter is very shy. She won't be running for president of student council or the president / leader of every club she belongs to, etc. Are the admissions officers thinking about getting a mix of students who are not really type A about those kinds of things? All the people I've known who got into highly selective schools (e.g. Princeton, Stanford, Harvard) were the president of everything, really outgoing and confident leader types. My child isn't like that. She is confident about her academic abilities, but she isn't a take-charge leader personality. I'm curious about what the admissions officers at selective schools think of those kinds of kids. OP if you are still responding, what do you think? (And I should clarify that I'm not stressing that she won't get into HYP or her life is over. I want her to find a good fit for her personality and interests, but I am just curious about selective schools in general.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ Just because Vandy and Williams reported lower ranges for their new SATs than for the old SATs and ACTs doesn't mean that the concordances are incorrect. We don't know how many people are in each reported group, and what the composition of each group is. For example, many stronger students may have skipped the new SAT, so that group is weaker than average. Also, many kids submit a variety of tests (new SAT, old SAT, ACT), in which case the colleges use the new SAT only if it is the strongest score according to the concordances.

Many weaker students may have also skipped the new SAT in favor of the old, knowing they had to rely on its large volume of old SAT pre-existing prep materials as a crutch. That would offset any stronger students who made the same choice.

That would require huge numbers of weak students to complete their old SAT testing by January of their junior year and then not bother with the new SAT or ACT. Pretzel logic. It almost sounds like your kid got a low score on the new SAT and you are praying the concordances aren't valid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was having similar thoughts to the PP who posted above about her kids not being very outgoing or quirky or at the popular kids lunch table. My daughter is very shy. She won't be running for president of student council or the president / leader of every club she belongs to, etc. Are the admissions officers thinking about getting a mix of students who are not really type A about those kinds of things? All the people I've known who got into highly selective schools (e.g. Princeton, Stanford, Harvard) were the president of everything, really outgoing and confident leader types. My child isn't like that. She is confident about her academic abilities, but she isn't a take-charge leader personality. I'm curious about what the admissions officers at selective schools think of those kinds of kids. OP if you are still responding, what do you think? (And I should clarify that I'm not stressing that she won't get into HYP or her life is over. I want her to find a good fit for her personality and interests, but I am just curious about selective schools in general.)

My kid's like yours and is happy at UChicago. Harvard and Stanford are pretty extroverted/networky/ambitious/can-do kinds of places and value that spirit even among their nerdy kids. Princeton's nerds are often quieter. Chicago's are talkative and friendly (albeit shy initially) but tend to be do-my-own thing types rather than would-be leaders/organizers. Different elite schools are looking for different things (and/or making different bets on what kind of people will be powerful).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ Just because Vandy and Williams reported lower ranges for their new SATs than for the old SATs and ACTs doesn't mean that the concordances are incorrect. We don't know how many people are in each reported group, and what the composition of each group is. For example, many stronger students may have skipped the new SAT, so that group is weaker than average. Also, many kids submit a variety of tests (new SAT, old SAT, ACT), in which case the colleges use the new SAT only if it is the strongest score according to the concordances.

Many weaker students may have also skipped the new SAT in favor of the old, knowing they had to rely on its large volume of old SAT pre-existing prep materials as a crutch. That would offset any stronger students who made the same choice.

That would require huge numbers of weak students to complete their old SAT testing by January of their junior year and then not bother with the new SAT or ACT. Pretzel logic. It almost sounds like your kid got a low score on the new SAT and you are praying the concordances aren't valid.

My kid got in ED and is done. No dog in this fight. If my kid was a weak student, I would have pushed her to take the old SAT. She would have needed all the help and crutches available. I'm sure plenty of weak students made the same decision to go with the old SAT and remove themselves from the new SAT pool. With both weak and strong students removing themselves from the new SAT pool...the old vs. new SAT populations are effectively the same.

[Anonymous]

Thanks, PP. I always worry that because she's shy she will get pushed out or looked over in favor of the more confident, networky, look-at-me kids who are more comfortable promoting themselves. I am like my daughter and looking back on it, I was probably hesitant to even apply to some selective schools because the other kids I knew who were applying were the type A leadership kids I described above. I don't want her to get intimidated by that, but at the same time if the admissions people are more impressed by the outgoing kids, it would be nice to have a realistic picture of that because it will affect her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks, PP. I always worry that because she's shy she will get pushed out or looked over in favor of the more confident, networky, look-at-me kids who are more comfortable promoting themselves. I am like my daughter and looking back on it, I was probably hesitant to even apply to some selective schools because the other kids I knew who were applying were the type A leadership kids I described above. I don't want her to get intimidated by that, but at the same time if the admissions people are more impressed by the outgoing kids, it would be nice to have a realistic picture of that because it will affect her.

I meant to say I was replying to the UChicago parent above. Thanks for the insight.

[Anonymous]

I have a bright but way underachieving junior who is definitely not going to be in the running for any school remotely selective. It's a huge relief!

But I take issue with one of OP's comments based on my other child who went ivy league: we were told that if DC knew which school they wanted, then early decision was strongly recommended. It did not sound like it made no difference in admissions, it seemed to make a big difference based on later-observed outcomes of others in DC's class.

[Anonymous]

To the other posters who are worried about their shy kids, I just want to share that my extremely shy, introverted kid landed at a top school. http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/546820.page

It's really hard to understand why or how a kid gets into a difficult school. I just think your energy is better spent encouraging your kid to be themselves and to become invested in the things they care about.

[Anonymous]

I'm getting confused with this old SAT, new SAT stuff. If your kid is taking the SAT this year does he/she get to choose which they want to take?
If not, what difference does it make?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm getting confused with this old SAT, new SAT stuff. If your kid is taking the SAT this year does he/she get to choose which they want to take?
If not, what difference does it make?

No. This year's graduating class straddled the old and new SAT. They had the option to take either (in the requisite time frames) and either test score could be submitted (although some colleges require all scores be submitted). My DD took both the old and the new. She scored a 2290 on the old and a 1580 on the new. There are subtle differences to the test which may have made the old and new a better or worse fit for some students. It is all moot now, as this was the last class who had the option to take the old test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To the other posters who are worried about their shy kids, I just want to share that my extremely shy, introverted kid landed at a top school. http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/546820.page/&

It's really hard to understand why or how a kid gets into a difficult school. I just think your energy is better spent encouraging your kid to be themselves and to become invested in the things they care about.

I'm the PP who talked about her shy daughter. I completely agree with you. I just want my child to find a school where she will be happy and thrive. That's all I care about. But this thread made me curious to hear about how different personalities can or might impact admissions decisions, if she does want to attend a selective school (she may not, and I'm fine with that). But I agree absolutely that we should encourage kids to be themselves and pursue their interests. Congrats to your DC also. Hope he or she is happy with the school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm really depressed by everything I'm hearing about the essay. The thing is that in my family we're pretty boring. We go to church and we eat dinner together and we eat vegetables and we mow the lawn.

I honestly don't think if you met my kid you'd think "Wow, what a fascinating individual!" You'd say -- Look, it's a white kid who plays the violin and takes advanced math. You probably wouldn't find me very fascinating either. None of us has eleventy thousand followers on Instagram. We dress in regular clothes -- nobody has dreadlocks or a nose ring or a tattoo.

In my mind, people who are charismatic and fascinating and quirky and funny are usually extroverts (which we're not in my family), and extremely self-confident (which no one in our family really is.). We're timid nerds who read books.

It feels a bit like you're saying that being invited to attend your university is like being invited to sit at the popular kid's table in the cafeteria in high school lunch period. I never sat there, but I always regarded that more as an accident of circumstance than as something I had to or could work on. Some of us are just less interesting. Kind of sad that these days you need to be brilliant AND fascinating, all by the age of 17.

I have several reactions to this.

First, it sounds like you are accusing others of something you are guilty of yourself. You assume that others will find your introvert timid and boring because you yourself seem to find introverts timid and boring. In fact, IME, introverts often have very fascinating, quirky, and funny observations about themselves and the world around them. People who are timid and read books still can have deep interests and interesting things to say, even if they don't enjoy saying them too loudly or to too many people. Are all introverts brilliant and fascinating? Absolutely not. But the same is true of extroverts as well. Brilliant and fascinating actually has nothing to do with introversion/extroversion.

Second, it is strange to me that you are complaining that your brilliant but boring introvert will be disadvantaged by the essay requirement. This makes no sense. An introvert is not at a disadvantage when it comes to writing a college essay--in fact, one could argue that an introvert has an advantage here. No one reading a kid's essay can see what kind of clothes she is dressed in or whether she has dreadlocks or a nose ring or a tattoo, nor does the reader know how many Instagram followers the writer has or where they sit in the cafeteria. It would make far more sense to me if you were complaining that your brilliant introvert is disadvantaged in the application process because, as an introvert who is more interested in reading than in joining clubs, she doesn't have a ton of activities. Or that she doesn't have glowing recommendations from teachers because she tends to be very quiet in class. But the essay a disadvantage for an introvert in particular? No.

Third, you are looking at a multi-dimensional application (grades, test scores, activities, essays, recommendations) and seeing only the disadvantages *your* child faces. But most kids have weaknesses; few are superstars. Your kid might have difficulty writing an interesting essay; another equally brilliant kid might be a terrifically interesting writer but not have a fabulous GPA. Both kids might thrive at Harvard. There's no "right" decision here on which one is more qualified or deserves it more.

Which brings me to my fourth point: Either kid will also thrive at other schools that are not Harvard. Not getting into an elite college is not a tragedy. So viewing this process as "depressing" is just silly.

And finally, the discussion here has been about how rare the great college essay is. So if your kid can't write a great one, she has that in common with 90% of the other applicants. It's not a disadvantage.

Relax.

My child just went through this process. Honestly, most of the essay prompts are boring as hell and no not lend themselves to anything creative or interesting. W&M, Chicago and Princeton were notable exceptions. Most of these essays are 300 words or less. Even if you want to be creative, there simply isn't an opportunity in the works slotted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks, PP. I always worry that because she's shy she will get pushed out or looked over in favor of the more confident, networky, look-at-me kids who are more comfortable promoting themselves. I am like my daughter and looking back on it, I was probably hesitant to even apply to some selective schools because the other kids I knew who were applying were the type A leadership kids I described above. I don't want her to get intimidated by that, but at the same time if the admissions people are more impressed by the outgoing kids, it would be nice to have a realistic picture of that because it will affect her.

I meant to say I was replying to the UChicago parent above. Thanks for the insight.

Can't speak to the admissions piece (except to say that standing out on paper -- essays, letters of recommendation -- doesn't inherently require being outgoing/confident in social situations), but it's worth remembering that once she's in, wherever she's in, she'll be the kind of student professors recognize and value. In that sense, elite admissions can be out of sync with elite education. While I certainly don't agree with everything he's saying in this piece, I think Steven Pinker's take on Harvard undergrads (near the end of this essay: https://newrepublic.com/article/119321/harvard-ivy-league-should-judge-students-standardized-tests) represents a perspective many academics share.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm getting confused with this old SAT, new SAT stuff. If your kid is taking the SAT this year does he/she get to choose which they want to take?
If not, what difference does it make?

That ship has passed. The last "old" SAT was a year ago January. This year's seniors were in the crossover year.