South Arlington schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The basic curriculum is the same at all Arlington schools. All the rest of this hand wringing is just polite cover for racism. So sick of this.

Discussing South Arlington schools is difficult, largely because it requires nuance. Nuance is hard to sell. Charges of racism, or anti-AH, are much easier for people to grasp, or lob onto others.

I would say that MOST of us living in South Arlington support "diversity" (whatever that means) by the simple fact that we choose to live here. If we didn't, we would live in Fairfax County, or North Arlington, or somewhere else where we would not live near poor, minority families. So the charges of racism particularly stings, and also undermines your argument.

The issues with South Arlington schools are real, and worth discussing. That doesn't mean they aren't good schools, or have good students. But if you think South Arlington schools are the equal of North Arlington schools, simply because they have the same basic curriculum, you're deluding yourself.

Many of those in S Arlington really, really want what they perceive many in N Arlington as having. But they can't afford it. Racism is alive and well in all parts of Arlington.

Of course. Racism is sadly a part of life. North, South, it's everywhere. But to paint "all" of this discussion as simply racism is incorrect and dismissive.

[Anonymous]

I agree that schools with high levels of poverty have more difficulties.
Where I disagree is the idea that AH contributes to this problem- I think that AH improves school outcomes.

Could you distribute AH throughout the county? I think Arl has tried pretty hard to do this. Yes- it does rely on converting cheap market rate AH to CAF's- but again I think this improves school outcomes- not the opposite.

Should you do away with neighborhood schools in order to even out FARMS rates at various different schools? I think people can legitimately disagree about this one. I can see both sides of the argument.

I think the more interesting and realistic discussion is about whether or not school outcomes are really worse for the nonFARMS kids in predominantly FARMS schools. Are they getting a lesser education than their income peers in less significantly FARMS schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree that schools with high levels of poverty have more difficulties.
Where I disagree is the idea that AH contributes to this problem- I think that AH improves school outcomes.

Could you distribute AH throughout the county? I think Arl has tried pretty hard to do this. Yes- it does rely on converting cheap market rate AH to CAF's- but again I think this improves school outcomes- not the opposite.

Should you do away with neighborhood schools in order to even out FARMS rates at various different schools? I think people can legitimately disagree about this one. I can see both sides of the argument.

I think the more interesting and realistic discussion is about whether or not school outcomes are really worse for the nonFARMS kids in predominantly FARMS schools. Are they getting a lesser education than their income peers in less significantly FARMS schools?

We stuck with it but I think my kid got a lesser education in K, 1st, and 2nd than he would have in a north Arlington school. He got a lot of pull out from the RTG starting the second week of kindergarten but it didn't change the fact that he came into school being able to read and do math and literally no other kid in his class could, and he stayed ahead of them for a couple of years. If he had been average in his class, he would have done different things, more things, with his class. At the end of the day, I don't know that it is going to make a material difference in, say, his SAT scores. But he could have had a richer educational experience if he hadn't been in a class where half of the kids came in speaking little or no English (and not just Spanish at home--lots of different languages, which is its own challenge) and almost none came in with any type of prior schooling. I'm not saying they had behavioral problems or their parents weren't committed to their educations or anything like that. But there's no question it was not the experience other kids have, and if I had the chance to do it over I don't know if I would have chosen to live in south Arlington (and yes, it was a choice.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree that schools with high levels of poverty have more difficulties.
Where I disagree is the idea that AH contributes to this problem- I think that AH improves school outcomes.

Could you distribute AH throughout the county? I think Arl has tried pretty hard to do this. Yes- it does rely on converting cheap market rate AH to CAF's- but again I think this improves school outcomes- not the opposite.

Should you do away with neighborhood schools in order to even out FARMS rates at various different schools? I think people can legitimately disagree about this one. I can see both sides of the argument.

I think the more interesting and realistic discussion is about whether or not school outcomes are really worse for the nonFARMS kids in predominantly FARMS schools. Are they getting a lesser education than their income peers in less significantly FARMS schools?

We stuck with it but I think my kid got a lesser education in K, 1st, and 2nd than he would have in a north Arlington school. He got a lot of pull out from the RTG starting the second week of kindergarten but it didn't change the fact that he came into school being able to read and do math and literally no other kid in his class could, and he stayed ahead of them for a couple of years. If he had been average in his class, he would have done different things, more things, with his class. At the end of the day, I don't know that it is going to make a material difference in, say, his SAT scores. But he could have had a richer educational experience if he hadn't been in a class where half of the kids came in speaking little or no English (and not just Spanish at home--lots of different languages, which is its own challenge) and almost none came in with any type of prior schooling. I'm not saying they had behavioral problems or their parents weren't committed to their educations or anything like that. But there's no question it was not the experience other kids have, and if I had the chance to do it over I don't know if I would have chosen to live in south Arlington (and yes, it was a choice.)

I was about to respond and say that we can already see that the educational experience is lesser, but also, sufficient (for now). We are taking it year by year and evaluating as we go. Are the later elementary years better? We are anticipating that they might be worse. If it stays par-for-the-course, or even improves (as the current ESL students learn English and "catch up"), we might be in better shape than we expected.

PP, did your child go through all the way to middle and high school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree that schools with high levels of poverty have more difficulties.
Where I disagree is the idea that AH contributes to this problem- I think that AH improves school outcomes.

Could you distribute AH throughout the county? I think Arl has tried pretty hard to do this. Yes- it does rely on converting cheap market rate AH to CAF's- but again I think this improves school outcomes- not the opposite.

Should you do away with neighborhood schools in order to even out FARMS rates at various different schools? I think people can legitimately disagree about this one. I can see both sides of the argument.
I think the more interesting and realistic discussion is about whether or not school outcomes are really worse for the nonFARMS kids in predominantly FARMS schools. Are they getting a lesser education than their income peers in less significantly FARMS schools?

This has been talked to death and the answer is YES. The answer is always YES. Fairfax county has done studies on this. Studies that we like to ignore in Arlington. There is a tipping point. When a school becomes overburdened by poverty, all children suffer. All of them.
So are south Arlington schools bad?
No. They're fine.
But your middle class kid is statistically less likely to match the outcomes of a kid of the same means in north Arlington.
Look at the breakdown of scores at Randolph compared to Nottingham. It's 5-12 points per subject.
Does that mean your kid will be a failure at life? Of course not.
That's not what we are talking about.
This is a fight worth having.
The people in charge for the last 25 years have been fine with this arrangement.
I'm not fine with this arrangement. It's a terrible arrangement.
I'm sick to death of watching older democrats patting themselves on the back for a job well done. They've made terrible choices, and we have to work to undo the damage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree that schools with high levels of poverty have more difficulties.
Where I disagree is the idea that AH contributes to this problem- I think that AH improves school outcomes.

Could you distribute AH throughout the county? I think Arl has tried pretty hard to do this. Yes- it does rely on converting cheap market rate AH to CAF's- but again I think this improves school outcomes- not the opposite.

Should you do away with neighborhood schools in order to even out FARMS rates at various different schools? I think people can legitimately disagree about this one. I can see both sides of the argument.

I think the more interesting and realistic discussion is about whether or not school outcomes are really worse for the nonFARMS kids in predominantly FARMS schools. Are they getting a lesser education than their income peers in less significantly FARMS schools?

We stuck with it but I think my kid got a lesser education in K, 1st, and 2nd than he would have in a north Arlington school. He got a lot of pull out from the RTG starting the second week of kindergarten but it didn't change the fact that he came into school being able to read and do math and literally no other kid in his class could, and he stayed ahead of them for a couple of years. If he had been average in his class, he would have done different things, more things, with his class. At the end of the day, I don't know that it is going to make a material difference in, say, his SAT scores. But he could have had a richer educational experience if he hadn't been in a class where half of the kids came in speaking little or no English (and not just Spanish at home--lots of different languages, which is its own challenge) and almost none came in with any type of prior schooling. I'm not saying they had behavioral problems or their parents weren't committed to their educations or anything like that. But there's no question it was not the experience other kids have, and if I had the chance to do it over I don't know if I would have chosen to live in south Arlington (and yes, it was a choice.)

I was about to respond and say that we can already see that the educational experience is lesser, but also, sufficient (for now). We are taking it year by year and evaluating as we go. Are the later elementary years better? We are anticipating that they might be worse. If it stays par-for-the-course, or even improves (as the current ESL students learn English and "catch up"), we might be in better shape than we expected.

PP, did your child go through all the way to middle and high school?

We switched to a choice program, and then got our younger child in the choice program as well when he started school. The handful of other middle class kids in the K and 1st classes also switched to other schools -- I don't know if they went to choice programs, private, or got transfers, but none of them stayed.

It is tough when your kid can read a book (like a Magic Treehouse book) and the year-long goal for the rest of the class is to learn 20 sight words (and, if, but, yes, go...). You want your kid to be excited about learning.

And, honestly, playdates are tough. When kids live in apartments, they have plenty of friends nearby, and their moms often don't drive.

[Anonymous]

We're zoned Randolph.
I posted on a different thread a few months back. We're still a few years away from K, so I'm watching all of this with interest. I just ran into a friend at the Target on 50. They moved out of Columbia Forest and snapped up a home in Dominion Hills zoned McKinley, two years ago? Maybe? I'm thinking that window has probably shut for us. My friend got in for under 700. I'm really thinking we should have moved. I'll make money on my house, but it might mean moving to Fairfax.
Randolph is always mentioned, and rarely with specifics. I was going to go talk to the principal... I guess I'll wait till they appoint a new one.
Maybe we'll get lucky and a new principal will turn things around over there. My neighborhood has tons of kids. I don't know what everyone is planning to do. When I mentioned Randolph at the playground some moms actually started laughing about it. Like, " you're kidding right?"
They have older kids, so we'll see what happens in the next 4-5 years.
My husband and I have discussed it, and we are hoping to lottery out if things don't improve. If that's not an option we'll give it a shot. Possibly through 2nd. It seems 3rd is when curriculum gets ramped up. We'll go private 3,4,5. That might make more financial sense than uprooting. We're happy with TJ and Wakefield. Funny it's the exact opposite problem as my friends who live downtown. Elementary is fine - middle and hs makes them sweat. I prefer our problem.
I live in Douglas Park. It's so interesting. I must have very different neighbors than the folks in Barcroft. My neighbors were all against the street car. They all seemed cynical at the time, now I think see why. The older homeowners basically said, "'we'll end up with the short end of the stick on revitalizing the Pike".
Well- looks like they were right. Lots of developing of affordable housing, no good transit, and upscale development has stalled. At least my neigborhood got a chipotle and sugar shack. I'll be glad to see foodstar redeveloped. People further down the Pike... I feel badly for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The basic curriculum is the same at all Arlington schools. All the rest of this hand wringing is just polite cover for racism. So sick of this.

Discussing South Arlington schools is difficult, largely because it requires nuance. Nuance is hard to sell. Charges of racism, or anti-AH, are much easier for people to grasp, or lob onto others.

I would say that MOST of us living in South Arlington support "diversity" (whatever that means) by the simple fact that we choose to live here. If we didn't, we would live in Fairfax County, or North Arlington, or somewhere else where we would not live near poor, minority families. So the charges of racism particularly stings, and also undermines your argument.

The issues with South Arlington schools are real, and worth discussing. That doesn't mean they aren't good schools, or have good students. But if you think South Arlington schools are the equal of North Arlington schools, simply because they have the same basic curriculum, you're deluding yourself.

Many of those in S Arlington really, really want what they perceive many in N Arlington as having. But they can't afford it. Racism is alive and well in all parts of Arlington.

Of course. Racism is sadly a part of life. North, South, it's everywhere. But to paint "all" of this discussion as simply racism is incorrect and dismissive.

I'll agree to disagree. But I fully acknowledge racism up here in the North. I have been a victim of it and I have heard horrifying things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree that schools with high levels of poverty have more difficulties.
Where I disagree is the idea that AH contributes to this problem- I think that AH improves school outcomes.

Could you distribute AH throughout the county? I think Arl has tried pretty hard to do this. Yes- it does rely on converting cheap market rate AH to CAF's- but again I think this improves school outcomes- not the opposite.

Should you do away with neighborhood schools in order to even out FARMS rates at various different schools? I think people can legitimately disagree about this one. I can see both sides of the argument.

I think the more interesting and realistic discussion is about whether or not school outcomes are really worse for the nonFARMS kids in predominantly FARMS schools. Are they getting a lesser education than their income peers in less significantly FARMS schools?

We stuck with it but I think my kid got a lesser education in K, 1st, and 2nd than he would have in a north Arlington school. He got a lot of pull out from the RTG starting the second week of kindergarten but it didn't change the fact that he came into school being able to read and do math and literally no other kid in his class could, and he stayed ahead of them for a couple of years. If he had been average in his class, he would have done different things, more things, with his class. At the end of the day, I don't know that it is going to make a material difference in, say, his SAT scores. But he could have had a richer educational experience if he hadn't been in a class where half of the kids came in speaking little or no English (and not just Spanish at home--lots of different languages, which is its own challenge) and almost none came in with any type of prior schooling. I'm not saying they had behavioral problems or their parents weren't committed to their educations or anything like that. But there's no question it was not the experience other kids have, and if I had the chance to do it over I don't know if I would have chosen to live in south Arlington (and yes, it was a choice.)

I was about to respond and say that we can already see that the educational experience is lesser, but also, sufficient (for now). We are taking it year by year and evaluating as we go. Are the later elementary years better? We are anticipating that they might be worse. If it stays par-for-the-course, or even improves (as the current ESL students learn English and "catch up"), we might be in better shape than we expected.

PP, did your child go through all the way to middle and high school?

We switched to a choice program, and then got our younger child in the choice program as well when he started school. The handful of other middle class kids in the K and 1st classes also switched to other schools -- I don't know if they went to choice programs, private, or got transfers, but none of them stayed.

It is tough when your kid can read a book (like a Magic Treehouse book) and the year-long goal for the rest of the class is to learn 20 sight words (and, if, but, yes, go...). You want your kid to be excited about learning.

And, honestly, playdates are tough. When kids live in apartments, they have plenty of friends nearby, and their moms often don't drive.

I've also heard that the immigrant families are cliquish in their own ways. Your kid throws a b-day party and no one from class shows. Your kid ends up alone in class. Sad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
But your middle class kid is statistically less likely to match the outcomes of a kid of the same means in north Arlington.
Look at the breakdown of scores at Randolph compared to Nottingham. It's 5-12 points per subject.
Does that mean your kid will be a failure at life? Of course not.
That's not what we are talking about.
This is a fight worth having.
The people in charge for the last 25 years have been fine with this arrangement.
I'm not fine with this arrangement. It's a terrible arrangement.
I'm sick to death of watching older democrats patting themselves on the back for a job well done. They've made terrible choices, and we have to work to undo the damage.

So I'm trying to figure out what you mean. I'm looking at the school report cards- https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/reportcard/report.do?division=7&schoolName=1705
Do you mean that Nottingham scores are higher than Randolph's? Well, of course they are- but I would pin that on the socioeconomics feeding into the schools- not what the schools are doing.
Or do you mean, that even controlled for income, Nottingham is 10 points higher than Randolph? I would be really interested to see how you conclude that.

In terms of some of the other complaints- about difficulties of setting up play dates and not getting great birthday party responses- well I'm not sure how you want to fix that, or what you see as the role of the school in doing so.
I'm also not sure that it really is a huge difference. We are at a North Arlington school and invited the whole class to the birthday party, and only had about 2 kids from the class come. We have never had a playdate from school.

[Anonymous]

If you look at the breakdown of the non farms kids ( middle class kids) at Randolph and compare them to the kids at Nottingham, you will see that they score lower on their SOLS's. I'm not tracking down the numbers. You can find them online. I've posted them before on other threads. I'm tired of having to repeat this very salient point.
Middle class south Arlington kids are not failing, but they are not performing as well as their north Arlington peers. Nobody said it's the schools job to get kids at your child's birthday party. We are talking about the make up of classrooms in the south. The county has created a problem, by subverting any counter balance of gebtrification.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The basic curriculum is the same at all Arlington schools. All the rest of this hand wringing is just polite cover for racism. So sick of this.

Discussing South Arlington schools is difficult, largely because it requires nuance. Nuance is hard to sell. Charges of racism, or anti-AH, are much easier for people to grasp, or lob onto others.

I would say that MOST of us living in South Arlington support "diversity" (whatever that means) by the simple fact that we choose to live here. If we didn't, we would live in Fairfax County, or North Arlington, or somewhere else where we would not live near poor, minority families. So the charges of racism particularly stings, and also undermines your argument.

The issues with South Arlington schools are real, and worth discussing. That doesn't mean they aren't good schools, or have good students. But if you think South Arlington schools are the equal of North Arlington schools, simply because they have the same basic curriculum, you're deluding yourself.

Many of those in S Arlington really, really want what they perceive many in N Arlington as having. But they can't afford it. Racism is alive and well in all parts of Arlington.

Of course. Racism is sadly a part of life. North, South, it's everywhere. But to paint "all" of this discussion as simply racism is incorrect and dismissive.

I'll agree to disagree. But I fully acknowledge racism up here in the North. I have been a victim of it and I have heard horrifying things.

Sorry, maybe I am tired today, but are you saying that you think the S Arlington people highlighting disparity in the schools their own children attend are in fact racist? But you, as a N Arlington resident, are an unbiased judge of the situation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But your middle class kid is statistically less likely to match the outcomes of a kid of the same means in north Arlington.
Look at the breakdown of scores at Randolph compared to Nottingham. It's 5-12 points per subject.
Does that mean your kid will be a failure at life? Of course not.
That's not what we are talking about.
This is a fight worth having.
The people in charge for the last 25 years have been fine with this arrangement.
I'm not fine with this arrangement. It's a terrible arrangement.
I'm sick to death of watching older democrats patting themselves on the back for a job well done. They've made terrible choices, and we have to work to undo the damage.

So I'm trying to figure out what you mean. I'm looking at the school report cards- https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/reportcard/report.do?division=7&schoolName=1705
Do you mean that Nottingham scores are higher than Randolph's? Well, of course they are- but I would pin that on the socioeconomics feeding into the schools- not what the schools are doing.
Or do you mean, that even controlled for income, Nottingham is 10 points higher than Randolph? I would be really interested to see how you conclude that.

In terms of some of the other complaints- about difficulties of setting up play dates and not getting great birthday party responses- well I'm not sure how you want to fix that, or what you see as the role of the school in doing so.
I'm also not sure that it really is a huge difference. We are at a North Arlington school and invited the whole class to the birthday party, and only had about 2 kids from the class come. We have never had a playdate from school.

APS could draw boundaries differently so that there wasn't so much rental housing concentrated into certain schools. It is hard on kids when their friends leave after a year every single year, or every other year. It's hard to get parents involved when, in addition to language and transportation barriers, they aren't necessarily going to live in the neighborhood or even the county long-term. Its hard for the school to "balance" classes when they don't know the strengths and weaknesses of half the kids who are going to show up each year.

Having trouble setting up playdates is a symptom, not a root cause. The school system needs to address the root cause, which is having segregated schools--including segregation by housing type, not just by race and socioeconomic status, although there are correlations among all those things in Arlington.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

APS could draw boundaries differently so that there wasn't so much rental housing concentrated into certain schools. It is hard on kids when their friends leave after a year every single year, or every other year. It's hard to get parents involved when, in addition to language and transportation barriers, they aren't necessarily going to live in the neighborhood or even the county long-term. Its hard for the school to "balance" classes when they don't know the strengths and weaknesses of half the kids who are going to show up each year.

Having trouble setting up playdates is a symptom, not a root cause. The school system needs to address the root cause, which is having segregated schools--including segregation by housing type, not just by race and socioeconomic status, although there are correlations among all those things in Arlington.

I think you are using rental housing as a (fair) proxy for a more transient population than home ownership.
One of the great things about AH is that it addresses this problem. If you are in a CAF you are much less likely to move than if you are in a market affordable unit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

APS could draw boundaries differently so that there wasn't so much rental housing concentrated into certain schools. It is hard on kids when their friends leave after a year every single year, or every other year. It's hard to get parents involved when, in addition to language and transportation barriers, they aren't necessarily going to live in the neighborhood or even the county long-term. Its hard for the school to "balance" classes when they don't know the strengths and weaknesses of half the kids who are going to show up each year.

Having trouble setting up playdates is a symptom, not a root cause. The school system needs to address the root cause, which is having segregated schools--including segregation by housing type, not just by race and socioeconomic status, although there are correlations among all those things in Arlington.

I think you are using rental housing as a (fair) proxy for a more transient population than home ownership.
One of the great things about AH is that it addresses this problem. If you are in a CAF you are much less likely to move than if you are in a market affordable unit.

Great, so will you advocate for the demolition of Barcroft apts? That place is a shithole/eyesore. They can put in lovely new buildings with mixed income. Deal?
Because as of now they are adding 100% CAFS to areas where transient poor populations are concentrated. Your hypothetical arguments fail address the reality of the south Arlington situation.