European Expansion: Eye-Opening, Frustrating, and Possibly Not Worth It - Underperforming employee culture

[Anonymous]

In European crime dramas at the very highest levels of corruption with top politicians and other very high profile criminals, the money at the end seems to be for $100k or $250k.

I keep wondering, why this much drama all for $100k?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

Also lived in Western Europe (and at one point Eastern). Agree with this sentiment completely.

The capitalist mindset is very focused on false “choice,” IMHO. And it’s not made anyone any happier or healthier in this country.

But downside they are stealing from their children and grandchildren to fund the lifestyle. Meaning my old boss in Germany with Free Healthcare, a great pension from Work, beach house, an amazing rent controlled house has great cash flow but nearly all his assets die with him.

The Pension stops, rent control apt stops, his beach house is actually a family house owned by MIL which is communal so cant pass to his kid. He only had one kid.

In the US He would own at time of death, his own primary home mortgage free, his beach house mortgage free, had a large amount of 401k/IRA/Savings Account money save due to higher income. Maybe 2-4 cars or boat. The US is focused on Assets. Plus in Europe next to US the percentage of people who own stocks and real estate is way less. The 16 years has been a massive run up in Real Estate and Stock Prices. My relatives in Europe for instance missed the boat on that as well did a lot of my older european co-workers.

A plan old mid level VP in a Bank in US in DC area is retiring at 65 with two million in 401k/IRAs and a 1.5 million dollar home paid off. That's before any other savings. That 3.5 million would be shocking to a European for a bank VP to have. And if that bank VP dropped dead day one of retirement his wife and kids get it. My old boss with his rental and defined pension lives the high life but he is really passing on nothing much to next generation.

So we should all work like machines to plan for our deaths?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

Also lived in Western Europe (and at one point Eastern). Agree with this sentiment completely.

The capitalist mindset is very focused on false “choice,” IMHO. And it’s not made anyone any happier or healthier in this country.

But downside they are stealing from their children and grandchildren to fund the lifestyle. Meaning my old boss in Germany with Free Healthcare, a great pension from Work, beach house, an amazing rent controlled house has great cash flow but nearly all his assets die with him.

The Pension stops, rent control apt stops, his beach house is actually a family house owned by MIL which is communal so cant pass to his kid. He only had one kid.

In the US He would own at time of death, his own primary home mortgage free, his beach house mortgage free, had a large amount of 401k/IRA/Savings Account money save due to higher income. Maybe 2-4 cars or boat. The US is focused on Assets. Plus in Europe next to US the percentage of people who own stocks and real estate is way less. The 16 years has been a massive run up in Real Estate and Stock Prices. My relatives in Europe for instance missed the boat on that as well did a lot of my older european co-workers.

A plan old mid level VP in a Bank in US in DC area is retiring at 65 with two million in 401k/IRAs and a 1.5 million dollar home paid off. That's before any other savings. That 3.5 million would be shocking to a European for a bank VP to have. And if that bank VP dropped dead day one of retirement his wife and kids get it. My old boss with his rental and defined pension lives the high life but he is really passing on nothing much to next generation.

So we should all work like machines to plan for our deaths?

yes in fact. My parents did, they worked like dogs in Europe to get to the USA to have a better life for their kids. They would have been better off staying in long run for themselves. But they got here separately, met and raised 4 kids who all have grad degrees, who all got married, had kids and all bought houses and putting all the kids through college. I am only first generation American but I expect by time my kids have kids they will be summering in Hamptons, Skiing in Aspen, Going to Ivy League schools. Maybe be President of the United States or win American Idol or cure cancer who knows. But if my parents never left their country and met there and had us four kids would have set us back several generations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

Also lived in Western Europe (and at one point Eastern). Agree with this sentiment completely.

The capitalist mindset is very focused on false “choice,” IMHO. And it’s not made anyone any happier or healthier in this country.

But downside they are stealing from their children and grandchildren to fund the lifestyle. Meaning my old boss in Germany with Free Healthcare, a great pension from Work, beach house, an amazing rent controlled house has great cash flow but nearly all his assets die with him.

The Pension stops, rent control apt stops, his beach house is actually a family house owned by MIL which is communal so cant pass to his kid. He only had one kid.

In the US He would own at time of death, his own primary home mortgage free, his beach house mortgage free, had a large amount of 401k/IRA/Savings Account money save due to higher income. Maybe 2-4 cars or boat. The US is focused on Assets. Plus in Europe next to US the percentage of people who own stocks and real estate is way less. The 16 years has been a massive run up in Real Estate and Stock Prices. My relatives in Europe for instance missed the boat on that as well did a lot of my older european co-workers.

A plan old mid level VP in a Bank in US in DC area is retiring at 65 with two million in 401k/IRAs and a 1.5 million dollar home paid off. That's before any other savings. That 3.5 million would be shocking to a European for a bank VP to have. And if that bank VP dropped dead day one of retirement his wife and kids get it. My old boss with his rental and defined pension lives the high life but he is really passing on nothing much to next generation.

Someone who gets it. The average European doesn’t own much of anything. One of my friends visited from a European country and was shocked to hear about someone buying a small home in cash. He wasn’t even familiar with a concept like that. A large percentage of American homes aren’t mortgaged.

European social benefits support and encourage a welfare state where an individual does not amass any personal wealth.

The average American doesn't own much either. The bank does. The average American is in a lot of CC debt, car debt, etc. We buy everything on credit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

Also lived in Western Europe (and at one point Eastern). Agree with this sentiment completely.

The capitalist mindset is very focused on false “choice,” IMHO. And it’s not made anyone any happier or healthier in this country.

But downside they are stealing from their children and grandchildren to fund the lifestyle. Meaning my old boss in Germany with Free Healthcare, a great pension from Work, beach house, an amazing rent controlled house has great cash flow but nearly all his assets die with him.

The Pension stops, rent control apt stops, his beach house is actually a family house owned by MIL which is communal so cant pass to his kid. He only had one kid.

In the US He would own at time of death, his own primary home mortgage free, his beach house mortgage free, had a large amount of 401k/IRA/Savings Account money save due to higher income. Maybe 2-4 cars or boat. The US is focused on Assets. Plus in Europe next to US the percentage of people who own stocks and real estate is way less. The 16 years has been a massive run up in Real Estate and Stock Prices. My relatives in Europe for instance missed the boat on that as well did a lot of my older european co-workers.

A plan old mid level VP in a Bank in US in DC area is retiring at 65 with two million in 401k/IRAs and a 1.5 million dollar home paid off. That's before any other savings. That 3.5 million would be shocking to a European for a bank VP to have. And if that bank VP dropped dead day one of retirement his wife and kids get it. My old boss with his rental and defined pension lives the high life but he is really passing on nothing much to next generation.

Someone who gets it. The average European doesn’t own much of anything. One of my friends visited from a European country and was shocked to hear about someone buying a small home in cash. He wasn’t even familiar with a concept like that. A large percentage of American homes aren’t mortgaged.

European social benefits support and encourage a welfare state where an individual does not amass any personal wealth.

Yes, I think that’s the point. We have massive income inequality in the US and look at what a mess we’re in.

[Anonymous]

There’s no doubt that we have an income inequality problem in the US and stagnating wages compared to the cost of living. However, I have to echo the OP. I was in one of the senior most US executive for a EU based company and it’s very colonial. They are literally never in the office, and work the Americans way harder. We need to reexamine of foreign investment schemes.

That being said, the average US executive makes way more, and the EU staff were quite jealous and also annoyed at how quickly and hard thier American counterparts worked. It’s a nightmare.

Probably best if we learned a bit from each other than retreating to either extreme.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There’s no doubt that we have an income inequality problem in the US and stagnating wages compared to the cost of living. However, I have to echo the OP. I was in one of the senior most US executive for a EU based company and it’s very colonial. They are literally never in the office, and work the Americans way harder. We need to reexamine of foreign investment schemes.

That being said, the average US executive makes way more, and the EU staff were quite jealous and also annoyed at how quickly and hard thier American counterparts worked. It’s a nightmare.

Probably best if we learned a bit from each other than retreating to either extreme.

No one culture is perfect. American professionals are too wrapped in their careers. Europeans don't want to work that hard. Somewhere in the middle is the answer, and ITA about the wage gap in the US. That is what is going to cause the empire to fall. At the least, Europe doesn't have such a wide income gap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here is the flipside. FAR fewer people on antidepressants, antianxiety meds. Happier, more fulfilled lives in general. Healthier nationally. Making money is not everything. They know what they are trading and they are much better for it. Americans are so clueless sometimes.

I lean toward this view as a tech employee with three young children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

Also lived in Western Europe (and at one point Eastern). Agree with this sentiment completely.

The capitalist mindset is very focused on false “choice,” IMHO. And it’s not made anyone any happier or healthier in this country.

But downside they are stealing from their children and grandchildren to fund the lifestyle. Meaning my old boss in Germany with Free Healthcare, a great pension from Work, beach house, an amazing rent controlled house has great cash flow but nearly all his assets die with him.

The Pension stops, rent control apt stops, his beach house is actually a family house owned by MIL which is communal so cant pass to his kid. He only had one kid.

In the US He would own at time of death, his own primary home mortgage free, his beach house mortgage free, had a large amount of 401k/IRA/Savings Account money save due to higher income. Maybe 2-4 cars or boat. The US is focused on Assets. Plus in Europe next to US the percentage of people who own stocks and real estate is way less. The 16 years has been a massive run up in Real Estate and Stock Prices. My relatives in Europe for instance missed the boat on that as well did a lot of my older european co-workers.

A plan old mid level VP in a Bank in US in DC area is retiring at 65 with two million in 401k/IRAs and a 1.5 million dollar home paid off. That's before any other savings. That 3.5 million would be shocking to a European for a bank VP to have. And if that bank VP dropped dead day one of retirement his wife and kids get it. My old boss with his rental and defined pension lives the high life but he is really passing on nothing much to next generation.

Someone who gets it. The average European doesn’t own much of anything. One of my friends visited from a European country and was shocked to hear about someone buying a small home in cash. He wasn’t even familiar with a concept like that. A large percentage of American homes aren’t mortgaged.

European social benefits support and encourage a welfare state where an individual does not amass any personal wealth.

Yes, I think that’s the point. We have massive income inequality in the US and look at what a mess we’re in.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

Also lived in Western Europe (and at one point Eastern). Agree with this sentiment completely.

The capitalist mindset is very focused on false “choice,” IMHO. And it’s not made anyone any happier or healthier in this country.

But downside they are stealing from their children and grandchildren to fund the lifestyle. Meaning my old boss in Germany with Free Healthcare, a great pension from Work, beach house, an amazing rent controlled house has great cash flow but nearly all his assets die with him.

The Pension stops, rent control apt stops, his beach house is actually a family house owned by MIL which is communal so cant pass to his kid. He only had one kid.

In the US He would own at time of death, his own primary home mortgage free, his beach house mortgage free, had a large amount of 401k/IRA/Savings Account money save due to higher income. Maybe 2-4 cars or boat. The US is focused on Assets. Plus in Europe next to US the percentage of people who own stocks and real estate is way less. The 16 years has been a massive run up in Real Estate and Stock Prices. My relatives in Europe for instance missed the boat on that as well did a lot of my older european co-workers.

A plan old mid level VP in a Bank in US in DC area is retiring at 65 with two million in 401k/IRAs and a 1.5 million dollar home paid off. That's before any other savings. That 3.5 million would be shocking to a European for a bank VP to have. And if that bank VP dropped dead day one of retirement his wife and kids get it. My old boss with his rental and defined pension lives the high life but he is really passing on nothing much to next generation.

So we should all work like machines to plan for our deaths?

yes in fact. My parents did, they worked like dogs in Europe to get to the USA to have a better life for their kids. They would have been better off staying in long run for themselves. But they got here separately, met and raised 4 kids who all have grad degrees, who all got married, had kids and all bought houses and putting all the kids through college. I am only first generation American but I expect by time my kids have kids they will be summering in Hamptons, Skiing in Aspen, Going to Ivy League schools. Maybe be President of the United States or win American Idol or cure cancer who knows. But if my parents never left their country and met there and had us four kids would have set us back several generations.

Meh, maybe, maybe not. You make a lot of assumptions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

Thank you. NP here. I was going to chime in and say the same thing. German. Yes, the salary was lower, but quality of life was not. (Well, except the weather )

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

Also lived in Western Europe (and at one point Eastern). Agree with this sentiment completely.

The capitalist mindset is very focused on false “choice,” IMHO. And it’s not made anyone any happier or healthier in this country.

But downside they are stealing from their children and grandchildren to fund the lifestyle. Meaning my old boss in Germany with Free Healthcare, a great pension from Work, beach house, an amazing rent controlled house has great cash flow but nearly all his assets die with him.

The Pension stops, rent control apt stops, his beach house is actually a family house owned by MIL which is communal so cant pass to his kid. He only had one kid.

In the US He would own at time of death, his own primary home mortgage free, his beach house mortgage free, had a large amount of 401k/IRA/Savings Account money save due to higher income. Maybe 2-4 cars or boat. The US is focused on Assets. Plus in Europe next to US the percentage of people who own stocks and real estate is way less. The 16 years has been a massive run up in Real Estate and Stock Prices. My relatives in Europe for instance missed the boat on that as well did a lot of my older european co-workers.

A plan old mid level VP in a Bank in US in DC area is retiring at 65 with two million in 401k/IRAs and a 1.5 million dollar home paid off. That's before any other savings. That 3.5 million would be shocking to a European for a bank VP to have. And if that bank VP dropped dead day one of retirement his wife and kids get it. My old boss with his rental and defined pension lives the high life but he is really passing on nothing much to next generation.

So we should all work like machines to plan for our deaths?

yes in fact. My parents did, they worked like dogs in Europe to get to the USA to have a better life for their kids. They would have been better off staying in long run for themselves. But they got here separately, met and raised 4 kids who all have grad degrees, who all got married, had kids and all bought houses and putting all the kids through college. I am only first generation American but I expect by time my kids have kids they will be summering in Hamptons, Skiing in Aspen, Going to Ivy League schools. Maybe be President of the United States or win American Idol or cure cancer who knows. But if my parents never left their country and met there and had us four kids would have set us back several generations.

Which of the 50+ countries did they come from? That makes a huge difference on whether or not they would have been better off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

Also lived in Western Europe (and at one point Eastern). Agree with this sentiment completely.

The capitalist mindset is very focused on false “choice,” IMHO. And it’s not made anyone any happier or healthier in this country.

But downside they are stealing from their children and grandchildren to fund the lifestyle. Meaning my old boss in Germany with Free Healthcare, a great pension from Work, beach house, an amazing rent controlled house has great cash flow but nearly all his assets die with him.

The Pension stops, rent control apt stops, his beach house is actually a family house owned by MIL which is communal so cant pass to his kid. He only had one kid.

In the US He would own at time of death, his own primary home mortgage free, his beach house mortgage free, had a large amount of 401k/IRA/Savings Account money save due to higher income. Maybe 2-4 cars or boat. The US is focused on Assets. Plus in Europe next to US the percentage of people who own stocks and real estate is way less. The 16 years has been a massive run up in Real Estate and Stock Prices. My relatives in Europe for instance missed the boat on that as well did a lot of my older european co-workers.

A plan old mid level VP in a Bank in US in DC area is retiring at 65 with two million in 401k/IRAs and a 1.5 million dollar home paid off. That's before any other savings. That 3.5 million would be shocking to a European for a bank VP to have. And if that bank VP dropped dead day one of retirement his wife and kids get it. My old boss with his rental and defined pension lives the high life but he is really passing on nothing much to next generation.

Someone who gets it. The average European doesn’t own much of anything. One of my friends visited from a European country and was shocked to hear about someone buying a small home in cash. He wasn’t even familiar with a concept like that. A large percentage of American homes aren’t mortgaged.

European social benefits support and encourage a welfare state where an individual does not amass any personal wealth.

The average American doesn't own much either. The bank does. The average American is in a lot of CC debt, car debt, etc. We buy everything on credit.

Americans on average are way less indebted than Europeans especially Northern Europeans

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/households-debt-to-gdp

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don't worry- Gen Z will fix this for us. They too would like lower wages and higher benefits. I'm shocked at the salaries that British friends make- like 39k. I'm not sure how they afford anything. I too have great health insurance, but I make 4-5x that.

I still can't get over how all of Europe takes August off. Why August? It's the most miserable month of the year IMO. I don't want to travel when it's hot as hell outside. A month in April or October? That sounds way better.

Standard of living is lower for your British friends esp inside the home (clothes, size and quality of house). You may have great health care but the trade off is that in euro countries most people have much lower floor on health care (not Brit's though )

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

Also lived in Western Europe (and at one point Eastern). Agree with this sentiment completely.

The capitalist mindset is very focused on false “choice,” IMHO. And it’s not made anyone any happier or healthier in this country.

But downside they are stealing from their children and grandchildren to fund the lifestyle. Meaning my old boss in Germany with Free Healthcare, a great pension from Work, beach house, an amazing rent controlled house has great cash flow but nearly all his assets die with him.

The Pension stops, rent control apt stops, his beach house is actually a family house owned by MIL which is communal so cant pass to his kid. He only had one kid.

In the US He would own at time of death, his own primary home mortgage free, his beach house mortgage free, had a large amount of 401k/IRA/Savings Account money save due to higher income. Maybe 2-4 cars or boat. The US is focused on Assets. Plus in Europe next to US the percentage of people who own stocks and real estate is way less. The 16 years has been a massive run up in Real Estate and Stock Prices. My relatives in Europe for instance missed the boat on that as well did a lot of my older european co-workers.

A plan old mid level VP in a Bank in US in DC area is retiring at 65 with two million in 401k/IRAs and a 1.5 million dollar home paid off. That's before any other savings. That 3.5 million would be shocking to a European for a bank VP to have. And if that bank VP dropped dead day one of retirement his wife and kids get it. My old boss with his rental and defined pension lives the high life but he is really passing on nothing much to next generation.

Someone who gets it. The average European doesn’t own much of anything. One of my friends visited from a European country and was shocked to hear about someone buying a small home in cash. He wasn’t even familiar with a concept like that. A large percentage of American homes aren’t mortgaged.

European social benefits support and encourage a welfare state where an individual does not amass any personal wealth.

The average American doesn't own much either. The bank does. The average American is in a lot of CC debt, car debt, etc. We buy everything on credit.

Americans on average are way less indebted than Europeans especially Northern Europeans

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/households-debt-to-gdp

I wouldn't say way less, and nowhere did I dispute that Europeans have debt too. But with all of the money we are supposedly making here, we should not be in as much debt as we are.

It's all smoke and mirrors.