How can sensible, educated people be religious?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very intelligent people think about what's outside our universe, and the possibility of some other world, quantum physics, and theories of consciousness.

Even Einstein believed in some form of a god.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-god-quantum-mechanics-and-consciousness-have-in-common/

DP - I went down a rabbit hole to read through some of links included in the article. I see now why you may hold some of the views you do. However, I view it all as trivial bullsh*t philosophizing, trying to ascribe meaning to something. It's a very anthropomorphic view of reality. The world just "is". There is no purpose.

That's one philosophical - nihilistic - viewpoint.

But, some intelligent people like Einstein do believe in a form of a god, or at least some other higher power. Or they are agnostics because the existence of a god probably can never be proven.

Interesting. I had not thought of nihilism until you wrote that. I was coming at it from a Buddhist viewpoint, but I can see the overlap with existential nihilism.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I always wonder about people that believe that their god is so good, has created this loving world just for us, etc. I would love to take a survey of religious and non religious people and ask how THEY would have designed a world/people if they were god. would it look anything like this? Would it be on a rock that inherently contains features that will occasionally kill thousands or more, inhabited by beings that have such a drive for survival as to be cruel to one another and to other creatures on this planet, where 99.99% of species have already become extinct? I could go on, but I think you get my drift. Would this be anything like what a loving god would create? I'm an imperfect human and I can think of millions of better ways to design a world and beautiful creatures to inhabit it.

This is a naive take. Humans have indeed had their own visions of utopia and have tried to act on it and it has always turned into a nightmare. See communism as one example, which is actually quite nice in theory if you read Karl Marx.

So I guess the answer is, I am not God. You are not God. By definition, our minds cannot comprehend God's plan. Your mistake is the age old mistake of trying to fit God into your own brain, to judge God by human experience and intellect.

While on this earth, God only reveals to us what is necessary for our salvation. We have enough capacity to develope a relationship with God and to walk with him through this life. He shows us that he loves us and that we can trust him absolutely through the life and death of Jesus. Everything else, he promises we can see clearly in heaven.

The age old mistake is to say this is not enough. I must be fully told of your plans God, and it must all make sense to me in my human judgment. That was Adam's original sin, eating that fruit of knowledge. Again you might totally disagree but how do you not see that conceptually it would be ridiculous if we can understand and dissect God's plan? Surely such a being would not be worthy of being God.

Thought stopping cliche. To be expected.

Perhaps it is a cliche because it is true. Ultimately it comes down to ego and pride, whether you think you can judge God. It is no coincidence that pride is the original and worst of the seven deadly sins.

I'll challenge your god or god's any day. I'll judge his/it's terrible "designs". For such an omnipotent and omniscient entity, it gets a lot wrong.

How could I have such hubris you may think? Because it's easy to go against the thinking of other people. That's all any religion is. Arguing with other people and what they "believe" which is based on things that are not supported by any logic or evidence.

Of course you can have the hubris. It is easy to have hubris, I would argue the easiest thing in the world is to have hubris. But the OP was how can reasonable people have faith. And I am saying the answer is humility. You can reject that answer but that is the answer.

Humility is not the answer. It is a combination of fear and indoctrination.

And personality

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I always wonder about people that believe that their god is so good, has created this loving world just for us, etc. I would love to take a survey of religious and non religious people and ask how THEY would have designed a world/people if they were god. would it look anything like this? Would it be on a rock that inherently contains features that will occasionally kill thousands or more, inhabited by beings that have such a drive for survival as to be cruel to one another and to other creatures on this planet, where 99.99% of species have already become extinct? I could go on, but I think you get my drift. Would this be anything like what a loving god would create? I'm an imperfect human and I can think of millions of better ways to design a world and beautiful creatures to inhabit it.

This is a naive take. Humans have indeed had their own visions of utopia and have tried to act on it and it has always turned into a nightmare. See communism as one example, which is actually quite nice in theory if you read Karl Marx.

So I guess the answer is, I am not God. You are not God. By definition, our minds cannot comprehend God's plan. Your mistake is the age old mistake of trying to fit God into your own brain, to judge God by human experience and intellect.

While on this earth, God only reveals to us what is necessary for our salvation. We have enough capacity to develope a relationship with God and to walk with him through this life. He shows us that he loves us and that we can trust him absolutely through the life and death of Jesus. Everything else, he promises we can see clearly in heaven.

The age old mistake is to say this is not enough. I must be fully told of your plans God, and it must all make sense to me in my human judgment. That was Adam's original sin, eating that fruit of knowledge. Again you might totally disagree but how do you not see that conceptually it would be ridiculous if we can understand and dissect God's plan? Surely such a being would not be worthy of being God.

How did you learn so much about what God wants for us? How do you know it's accurate and is from a reliable source?

I think everything I said is a combo of logic (that God by definition is greater than our minds since he is the creator), introspection (that the God of Christianity through the figure of Jesus tells the most compelling story of God's love for us among the religions I have studied), and basic Christian theology (original sin, us seeing clearly in heaven).

Answering the original question about why God's plan seems so dumb only requires logic though.

DP - I think PP's main question, and certainly mine, is: How do you know it's accurate and is from a reliable source?

How do I know what is accurate? The logic part or the introspection? I believe we can all arrive at the conclusion of theism based on reason alone. Which particular religion you adhere to will take some introspection and...faith.

What I meant was: How do you know the sources of "what God wants for us" are reliable and accurate? And what are those sources?

[Anonymous]

I believe we can all arrive at the conclusion of theism based on reason alone. Which particular religion you adhere to will take some introspection and...faith.

Only someone who is delusional would think that this is true. Using real facts and information, not ones based on some esoteric understanding known only by sky daddy, the ultimate conclusion is that theists have made everything up. Call them fairy tales, myths, whatever. Sky daddy is not real.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's a good question, and I've often wondered it myself. I know a lot of good, smart people who are very religious, including my own late parents. I dont think I'll every fully understand, but I respect their belief and ability to have faith.

I don't, but I may have respect for them in other ways, understanding that people can have quirks, despite their intelligence or our respect for them

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

While on this earth, God only reveals to us what is necessary for our salvation. We have enough capacity to develope a relationship with God and to walk with him through this life. He shows us that he loves us [u]and that we can trust him absolutely through the life and death of Jesus. Everything else, he promises we can see clearly in heaven.

The age old mistake is to say this is not enough. I must be fully told of your plans God, and it must all make sense to me in my human judgment. That was Adam's original sin, eating that fruit of knowledge. Again you might totally disagree but how do you not see that conceptually it would be ridiculous if we can understand and dissect God's plan? Surely such a being would not be worthy of being God.

According to your naive take, God exists and loves us. To love something, requires a relationship with it and to know it. Yet, many sensible people have doubts about its existence. Therefore, either God doesn't exist or it doesn't love us. At least it doesn't love us enough to make its existence abundantly clear so that we may know it and have a relationship with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

While on this earth, God only reveals to us what is necessary for our salvation. We have enough capacity to develope a relationship with God and to walk with him through this life. He shows us that he loves us [u]and that we can trust him absolutely through the life and death of Jesus. Everything else, he promises we can see clearly in heaven.

The age old mistake is to say this is not enough. I must be fully told of your plans God, and it must all make sense to me in my human judgment. That was Adam's original sin, eating that fruit of knowledge. Again you might totally disagree but how do you not see that conceptually it would be ridiculous if we can understand and dissect God's plan? Surely such a being would not be worthy of being God.

According to your naive take, God exists and loves us. To love something, requires a relationship with it and to know it. Yet, many sensible people have doubts about its existence. Therefore, either God doesn't exist or it doesn't love us. At least it doesn't love us enough to make its existence abundantly clear so that we may know it and have a relationship with it.

.

Good and interesting point

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I always wonder about people that believe that their god is so good, has created this loving world just for us, etc. I would love to take a survey of religious and non religious people and ask how THEY would have designed a world/people if they were god. would it look anything like this? Would it be on a rock that inherently contains features that will occasionally kill thousands or more, inhabited by beings that have such a drive for survival as to be cruel to one another and to other creatures on this planet, where 99.99% of species have already become extinct? I could go on, but I think you get my drift. Would this be anything like what a loving god would create? I'm an imperfect human and I can think of millions of better ways to design a world and beautiful creatures to inhabit it.

This is a naive take. Humans have indeed had their own visions of utopia and have tried to act on it and it has always turned into a nightmare. See communism as one example, which is actually quite nice in theory if you read Karl Marx.

So I guess the answer is, I am not God. You are not God. By definition, our minds cannot comprehend God's plan. Your mistake is the age old mistake of trying to fit God into your own brain, to judge God by human experience and intellect.

While on this earth, God only reveals to us what is necessary for our salvation. We have enough capacity to develope a relationship with God and to walk with him through this life. He shows us that he loves us and that we can trust him absolutely through the life and death of Jesus. Everything else, he promises we can see clearly in heaven.

The age old mistake is to say this is not enough. I must be fully told of your plans God, and it must all make sense to me in my human judgment. That was Adam's original sin, eating that fruit of knowledge. Again you might totally disagree but how do you not see that conceptually it would be ridiculous if we can understand and dissect God's plan? Surely such a being would not be worthy of being God.

How did you learn so much about what God wants for us? How do you know it's accurate and is from a reliable source?

I think everything I said is a combo of logic (that God by definition is greater than our minds since he is the creator), introspection (that the God of Christianity through the figure of Jesus tells the most compelling story of God's love for us among the religions I have studied), and basic Christian theology (original sin, us seeing clearly in heaven).

Answering the original question about why God's plan seems so dumb only requires logic though.

DP - I think PP's main question, and certainly mine, is: How do you know it's accurate and is from a reliable source?

How do I know what is accurate? The logic part or the introspection? I believe we can all arrive at the conclusion of theism based on reason alone. Which particular religion you adhere to will take some introspection and...faith.

What I meant was: How do you know the sources of "what God wants for us" are reliable and accurate? And what are those sources?

Once again, a reasonable, sensible question, and crickets in response.

[Anonymous]

I'm not religious at all,but I don't think faith has anything to do with intelligence. I don't mean that in a rude way, either.

My best friend described faith as a feeling. Her turning to religion probably saved her life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not religious at all,but I don't think faith has anything to do with intelligence. I don't mean that in a rude way, either.

My best friend described faith as a feeling. Her turning to religion probably saved her life.

How did religion save her life?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not religious at all,but I don't think faith has anything to do with intelligence. I don't mean that in a rude way, either.

My best friend described faith as a feeling. Her turning to religion probably saved her life.

Me Neither. I was just as intelligent when I was believer as now that I'm not.