VA math changes - ways to speak out

[Anonymous]

Can someone explain what's happening here? What changes are being made to 4th grade math (and beyond?)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain what's happening here? What changes are being made to 4th grade math (and beyond?)

They are going to get rid of accelerated math tracks and make changes to overall curriculum. They say students who want to take calculus will still be ready as juniors but they also say calculus is currently overemphasized and most people don't need it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never thought I would say this but I actually support the changes that VA is going to make.

It will almost certainly go through because too many parents are disillusion regarding their kids abilities and their kids never learn the basics of math and this becomes evident in high school.

What evidence do you have that these changes will actually lead to kids gaining a better understanding of the basics of math? Serious question.

OP here, I would support reconsidering how to teach math to non-accelerated students so that they get more of a grounding in statistics and other topics everyone should know for their everyday life. But my fear is that the changes being proposed would leave people who want to major in STEM fields unprepared. It is not clear to me how getting rid of accelerated math helps non-accelerated students. Instead I would love to see the state develop programs to provide additional support to all students and to give any student who expresses an interest an opportunity to try the accelerated track.

Personally I am skeptical this will go through because policies with concentrated costs and diffuse benefits are very tough politically (although in this case I would argue that there may not be any diffuse benefits). But if parents don't speak out to elected officials, it could easily go through.

+100 I had to roll my eyes multiple times watching their webinar. They talk a good game about the importance of statistics and the rise of data science (absolutely stats is important!) but higher level math is also important. My son will be starting college as a data science major and I doubt he'd have as good college outcomes if he didn't have calculus on his HS transcript (both AB and BC plus AP stats and another DE data analysis class).

And, their reasoning that kids shouldn't take calculus in HS because most re-take it in college makes no sense. College calculus goes at a faster pace and it is really helpful to have been introduced to it in HS if you are continuing on with math for a STEM major. IMO, fine to skip it if it's really the only higher math required for your major (as it was for my business major long ago) or if you really aced it and feel 100% solid on it before going to the next level but anything less than that, you probably should re-take it. That doesn't mean there was no value to taking it in HS. My son with AB/BC is allowed to skip the first calculus class but while BC technically is billed as Calc 1+Calc 2, he's not allowed to skip level 2 since it's a required major class.

Way back in the day I was allowed to skip all college calculus by having not just Calc BC but also the GMU double enrolled multivariable calculus on my HS transcript. Could happen for kids under the current system still, but never under the new one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never thought I would say this but I actually support the changes that VA is going to make.

It will almost certainly go through because too many parents are disillusion regarding their kids abilities and their kids never learn the basics of math and this becomes evident in high school.

What evidence do you have that these changes will actually lead to kids gaining a better understanding of the basics of math? Serious question.

It's no secret that taking the time to learn the basics of Math well and gain a great understanding will be beneficial.

Most kids are rushed through and by the time they get to high school they are struggling and need a tutor to get them through their higher level math classes.

Most accelerated classes all throughout the schools years make allowances for students who aren't doing well by doing things to prop up grades like grading homework participation, giving many retakes and so on.

Now that my child is in high school and does really want to go into a STEM field and we are looking at colleges, we are finding that many students once they get to college are repeating their advanced math courses from high school in college. Even when the student gets a high AP exam score. Some schools for some majors seem to require the student take the math courses at their school.

Do you have a source for these? I'd be interested in seeing data about the first bolded especially. If the second is true, the answer isn't to put these kids in the same class with their peers who cannot master basic concepts. I do think they should do away with "open enrollment" Honors classes, though. You either have the qualifying test scores and grades to get in or you don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never thought I would say this but I actually support the changes that VA is going to make.

It will almost certainly go through because too many parents are disillusion regarding their kids abilities and their kids never learn the basics of math and this becomes evident in high school.

What evidence do you have that these changes will actually lead to kids gaining a better understanding of the basics of math? Serious question.

It's no secret that taking the time to learn the basics of Math well and gain a great understanding will be beneficial.

Most kids are rushed through and by the time they get to high school they are struggling and need a tutor to get them through their higher level math classes.

Most accelerated classes all throughout the schools years make allowances for students who aren't doing well by doing things to prop up grades like grading homework participation, giving many retakes and so on.

Now that my child is in high school and does really want to go into a STEM field and we are looking at colleges, we are finding that many students once they get to college are repeating their advanced math courses from high school in college. Even when the student gets a high AP exam score. Some schools for some majors seem to require the student take the math courses at their school.

Do you have a source for these? I'd be interested in seeing data about the first bolded especially. If the second is true, the answer isn't to put these kids in the same class with their peers who cannot master basic concepts. I do think they should do away with "open enrollment" Honors classes, though. You either have the qualifying test scores and grades to get in or you don't.

I don't have hard data on this but IME with a 10th and 12th grader who both did the intensified Algebra and Geometry in middle school and did well in the classes without tutors, the HS (at least W-L) seems to set up Intensified Algebra 2 as a weed-out class. When my 12th grader was in 9th I knew a lot of people who got math tutors for the first time in that class or just opted to switch out of it. My older child had no trouble with it but my younger then did have difficulty with it. She's a good math student but needs to take her time to really absorb a concept and the super-fast speed of that class did not work for her. She dropped down to regular Algebra 2 after 1st quarter. But, that class so was so slow/easy she said kids regularly finished work early and went for walks around the school. I don't know what the answer is but as it is the tracking seems to be super fast or super slow with nothing in between. I also never understood why the only option in MS was "Intensified" Algebra/Geometry. Why not regular? Perhaps they'd have had better success with MS kids taking those classes if they didn't push to the intensified level.

[Anonymous]

When I was in HS (mid 90’s) Calculus A/B in 12th grade WAS the advanced path.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When I was in HS (mid 90’s) Calculus A/B in 12th grade WAS the advanced path.

Calculus (only one level offered) was the advanced path when I was in HS in the 80s. I think we had two sections at my middle school for Algebra and that was the top path, most of us then getting to Calc in 12th. If you wanted to go beyond calc, you did it at the CC on your own time. My friend had done geometry in summer school so was the only person in the school to take calc in 11th and then did a Diff Eq class at the CC in 12th.

As long as they provide a path to calculus in HS, I may be OK with this. I'm withholding judgement until I see the rest of their webinars. In general, I have no issue with working toward deeper understanding, number sense, more statistics and real world math application. I am NOT ok with not providing real, challenging work for top math students. My DS with ADHD had a lot of struggles in ES but was a superior math student and his pull-out math group was the highlight of his day. I don't want to think about how awful school would have been for him if on top of everything else math period became another time of boredom instead of the one thing that really engaged him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never thought I would say this but I actually support the changes that VA is going to make.

It will almost certainly go through because too many parents are disillusion regarding their kids abilities and their kids never learn the basics of math and this becomes evident in high school.

What evidence do you have that these changes will actually lead to kids gaining a better understanding of the basics of math? Serious question.

It's no secret that taking the time to learn the basics of Math well and gain a great understanding will be beneficial.

Most kids are rushed through and by the time they get to high school they are struggling and need a tutor to get them through their higher level math classes.

Most accelerated classes all throughout the schools years make allowances for students who aren't doing well by doing things to prop up grades like grading homework participation, giving many retakes and so on.

Now that my child is in high school and does really want to go into a STEM field and we are looking at colleges, we are finding that many students once they get to college are repeating their advanced math courses from high school in college. Even when the student gets a high AP exam score. Some schools for some majors seem to require the student take the math courses at their school.

Do you have a source for these? I'd be interested in seeing data about the first bolded especially. If the second is true, the answer isn't to put these kids in the same class with their peers who cannot master basic concepts. I do think they should do away with "open enrollment" Honors classes, though. You either have the qualifying test scores and grades to get in or you don't.

I don't have hard data on this but IME with a 10th and 12th grader who both did the intensified Algebra and Geometry in middle school and did well in the classes without tutors, the HS (at least W-L) seems to set up Intensified Algebra 2 as a weed-out class. When my 12th grader was in 9th I knew a lot of people who got math tutors for the first time in that class or just opted to switch out of it. My older child had no trouble with it but my younger then did have difficulty with it. She's a good math student but needs to take her time to really absorb a concept and the super-fast speed of that class did not work for her. She dropped down to regular Algebra 2 after 1st quarter. But, that class so was so slow/easy she said kids regularly finished work early and went for walks around the school. I don't know what the answer is but as it is the tracking seems to be super fast or super slow with nothing in between. I also never understood why the only option in MS was "Intensified" Algebra/Geometry. Why not regular? Perhaps they'd have had better success with MS kids taking those classes if they didn't push to the intensified level.

That's all well and good, but your examples are anecdotal and I could give you plenty of anecdotes to the contrary. Now, if someone can show actual hard data, I would love to see it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain what's happening here? What changes are being made to 4th grade math (and beyond?)

There's a lot of stuff, but their proposal is basically that:

-They're going to add different 'pathways' (ie, math options) for students in grades 11 and 12. (Because, as others have pointed out, the general zeitgeist seems to be that kids in HS don't need calc, or at least, not all of them do.)

-They're getting rid of any honors math courses/accelerated options. Every student in K-10 will all be taught the same material at the same pace. Near as I can tell, this means students will all be working at the equivalent pace of taking Alg 1 in 9th. They claim this won't preclude students who want calc in HS from getting it, but I'm also not convinced that those students won't have to do summer school to get in all the prep classes.

-They're getting rid of Alg 1, Alg 2, and Geometry as we know them; they seem to want to take those topics (and everything beneath them) and chunk up/redistribute the contents of those courses throughout the K-10 material. I'm assuming the plan will be that all the same content will be covered, just in a different order, but that's not a given from what I've seen thus far.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never thought I would say this but I actually support the changes that VA is going to make.

It will almost certainly go through because too many parents are disillusion regarding their kids abilities and their kids never learn the basics of math and this becomes evident in high school.

What evidence do you have that these changes will actually lead to kids gaining a better understanding of the basics of math? Serious question.

It's no secret that taking the time to learn the basics of Math well and gain a great understanding will be beneficial.

Most kids are rushed through and by the time they get to high school they are struggling and need a tutor to get them through their higher level math classes.

Most accelerated classes all throughout the schools years make allowances for students who aren't doing well by doing things to prop up grades like grading homework participation, giving many retakes and so on.

Now that my child is in high school and does really want to go into a STEM field and we are looking at colleges, we are finding that many students once they get to college are repeating their advanced math courses from high school in college. Even when the student gets a high AP exam score. Some schools for some majors seem to require the student take the math courses at their school.

Do you have a source for these? I'd be interested in seeing data about the first bolded especially. If the second is true, the answer isn't to put these kids in the same class with their peers who cannot master basic concepts. I do think they should do away with "open enrollment" Honors classes, though. You either have the qualifying test scores and grades to get in or you don't.

I don't have hard data on this but IME with a 10th and 12th grader who both did the intensified Algebra and Geometry in middle school and did well in the classes without tutors, the HS (at least W-L) seems to set up Intensified Algebra 2 as a weed-out class. When my 12th grader was in 9th I knew a lot of people who got math tutors for the first time in that class or just opted to switch out of it. My older child had no trouble with it but my younger then did have difficulty with it. She's a good math student but needs to take her time to really absorb a concept and the super-fast speed of that class did not work for her. She dropped down to regular Algebra 2 after 1st quarter. But, that class so was so slow/easy she said kids regularly finished work early and went for walks around the school. I don't know what the answer is but as it is the tracking seems to be super fast or super slow with nothing in between. I also never understood why the only option in MS was "Intensified" Algebra/Geometry. Why not regular? Perhaps they'd have had better success with MS kids taking those classes if they didn't push to the intensified level.

That's all well and good, but your examples are anecdotal and I could give you plenty of anecdotes to the contrary. Now, if someone can show actual hard data, I would love to see it.

Oh geez 🙄 you sound like a desperate parent who is desperate over the idea that your snowflake won’t get a proper “challenge” or they won’t make it to Harvard!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never thought I would say this but I actually support the changes that VA is going to make.

It will almost certainly go through because too many parents are disillusion regarding their kids abilities and their kids never learn the basics of math and this becomes evident in high school.

What evidence do you have that these changes will actually lead to kids gaining a better understanding of the basics of math? Serious question.

It's no secret that taking the time to learn the basics of Math well and gain a great understanding will be beneficial.

Most kids are rushed through and by the time they get to high school they are struggling and need a tutor to get them through their higher level math classes.

Most accelerated classes all throughout the schools years make allowances for students who aren't doing well by doing things to prop up grades like grading homework participation, giving many retakes and so on.

Now that my child is in high school and does really want to go into a STEM field and we are looking at colleges, we are finding that many students once they get to college are repeating their advanced math courses from high school in college. Even when the student gets a high AP exam score. Some schools for some majors seem to require the student take the math courses at their school.

Do you have a source for these? I'd be interested in seeing data about the first bolded especially. If the second is true, the answer isn't to put these kids in the same class with their peers who cannot master basic concepts. I do think they should do away with "open enrollment" Honors classes, though. You either have the qualifying test scores and grades to get in or you don't.

I don't have hard data on this but IME with a 10th and 12th grader who both did the intensified Algebra and Geometry in middle school and did well in the classes without tutors, the HS (at least W-L) seems to set up Intensified Algebra 2 as a weed-out class. When my 12th grader was in 9th I knew a lot of people who got math tutors for the first time in that class or just opted to switch out of it. My older child had no trouble with it but my younger then did have difficulty with it. She's a good math student but needs to take her time to really absorb a concept and the super-fast speed of that class did not work for her. She dropped down to regular Algebra 2 after 1st quarter. But, that class so was so slow/easy she said kids regularly finished work early and went for walks around the school. I don't know what the answer is but as it is the tracking seems to be super fast or super slow with nothing in between. I also never understood why the only option in MS was "Intensified" Algebra/Geometry. Why not regular? Perhaps they'd have had better success with MS kids taking those classes if they didn't push to the intensified level.

That's all well and good, but your examples are anecdotal and I could give you plenty of anecdotes to the contrary. Now, if someone can show actual hard data, I would love to see it.

Oh geez 🙄 you sound like a desperate parent who is desperate over the idea that your snowflake won’t get a proper “challenge” or they won’t make it to Harvard!!!

I don’t care where my kids go to college. I do care that the VDOE is apparently considering making big changes to its math curriculum, without any solid data to back these changes. I’ve read most of the studies where schools have tried this approach. None of them have gone seamlessly and quite a few had other variables that probably influenced the outcome quite heavily.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never thought I would say this but I actually support the changes that VA is going to make.

It will almost certainly go through because too many parents are disillusion regarding their kids abilities and their kids never learn the basics of math and this becomes evident in high school.

What evidence do you have that these changes will actually lead to kids gaining a better understanding of the basics of math? Serious question.

It's no secret that taking the time to learn the basics of Math well and gain a great understanding will be beneficial.

Most kids are rushed through and by the time they get to high school they are struggling and need a tutor to get them through their higher level math classes.

Most accelerated classes all throughout the schools years make allowances for students who aren't doing well by doing things to prop up grades like grading homework participation, giving many retakes and so on.

Now that my child is in high school and does really want to go into a STEM field and we are looking at colleges, we are finding that many students once they get to college are repeating their advanced math courses from high school in college. Even when the student gets a high AP exam score. Some schools for some majors seem to require the student take the math courses at their school.

I don't see how this is helped by removing tracking. No honors algebra 1 vs algebra 1. No 6th graders taking prealgebra. No 7th graders taking prealgebra. All 6th graders in Math 6(possibly renamed to foundations of algebra for next year). All 7th graders in Math 7, not even prealgebra, when currently a high percentage in Loudoun County are taking algebra. I doubt they will be getting any deeper understanding in Math 7, when the teacher is focusing on the weaker students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain what's happening here? What changes are being made to 4th grade math (and beyond?)

Look at AAP forum, post is nearly 30 pages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When I was in HS (mid 90’s) Calculus A/B in 12th grade WAS the advanced path.

And even that is gone now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was in HS (mid 90’s) Calculus A/B in 12th grade WAS the advanced path.

As long as they provide a path to calculus in HS, I may be OK with this. I'm withholding judgement until I see the rest of their webinars.

When they implemented the recent changes, the website said don't worry, you'll still be able to take multivariable calculus in high school.
Now they are saying, don't worry you'll still be able to take calculus in high school.
Meanwhile, their webinar makes clear they don't care if calculus is not available.
Kids generally have to be taking algebra in middle school to take calculus in high school.
Algebra/Geometry/Algebra 2/ PreCalculus/ Calculus is a normal track.
They have tried to combine Algebra 2 and Trigonometry, which might be why a previous poster said it was moving too fast.
LCPS then has a Math Analysis class for people who took Alg 2/Trig before calculus which can be taken as early as 10th grade.
The new track has some algebra and geometry topics included in Math 7 and Math 8(and earlier grades), but you still are stuck with not
being able to take advanced classes until 11th, where you can try and pick up algebra 2 and trigonometry and precalculus.

It is clear that they wish to have integrated Math 11 and integrated Math 12 as the only options as well, but then it will be too obvious that kids are not getting calculus.
They probably figure we will implement this, then down the road we can say the number of students taking calculus in high school is so low, we can advocate for eliminating it.