BigLaw folks: how long is normal to stay an associate if you aren't going to make partner?

[Anonymous]

The fact that they haven’t discussed his career is a bad sign. It’s a horrible time to begin a job search but he should consider starting to think of his options. Hopefully, he’ll have plenty of time before he needs to make a move.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m almost in the same position — 8 years in big law as an associate, maybe will be promoted to counsel in the next few years but maybe not, wondering how long this can last. I’m not worried about being asked to leave (naive?), but I do think it’ll be strange if people junior to me are promoted over me — for me, that will be the sure sign that I need to leave. Not totally sure what’s next, I’m in litigation so no niche area. Maybe government if I can find an agency to take me?

I think govt is kind of the standard exit path for litigators in DC. Lots of people on this board who did biglaw to gov’t litigation.

Yup. We always knew the deal when law firm associate folks with a certain number of years came around looking for a govt job.

It’s not a bad deal to be a govt attorney esp if you have a working spouse. I know some dual-govt-lawyer couples in my neighborhood and it seems like a good life (as long as you didnt get accustomed to two biglaw salaries).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The fact that they haven’t discussed his career is a bad sign. It’s a horrible time to begin a job search but he should consider starting to think of his options. Hopefully, he’ll have plenty of time before he needs to make a move.

I wonder if they have discussed it with him and he's just not sharing it with you. It just seems incredibly unlikely that a 10+ year associate wouldn't have had a single conversation about long-term plans. I wonder if they have dangled partnership or a counsel position that never materialized, and he's just embarrassed to discuss.

Agree with others that you need to talk to him directly about this, but I can see how this is awkward from your perspective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m almost in the same position — 8 years in big law as an associate, maybe will be promoted to counsel in the next few years but maybe not, wondering how long this can last. I’m not worried about being asked to leave (naive?), but I do think it’ll be strange if people junior to me are promoted over me — for me, that will be the sure sign that I need to leave. Not totally sure what’s next, I’m in litigation so no niche area. Maybe government if I can find an agency to take me?

I think govt is kind of the standard exit path for litigators in DC. Lots of people on this board who did biglaw to gov’t litigation.

Yup. We always knew the deal when law firm associate folks with a certain number of years came around looking for a govt job.

It’s not a bad deal to be a govt attorney esp if you have a working spouse. I know some dual-govt-lawyer couples in my neighborhood and it seems like a good life (as long as you didnt get accustomed to two biglaw salaries).

Can personally vouch. Is the money the same- not even close. But I average less than 40 hours a week and make over 120. Wife is also a GS 14. Our quality of life is much better now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m almost in the same position — 8 years in big law as an associate, maybe will be promoted to counsel in the next few years but maybe not, wondering how long this can last. I’m not worried about being asked to leave (naive?), but I do think it’ll be strange if people junior to me are promoted over me — for me, that will be the sure sign that I need to leave. Not totally sure what’s next, I’m in litigation so no niche area. Maybe government if I can find an agency to take me?

Start working your connections and start applying. Expect it to take a year or so to find a good government position. Maybe longer if you're targeting a financial regulator (worthwhile because more $$$).

[Anonymous]

I do not think its shocking that no one has had a conversation with him. I am 8 years in and no one has had a conversation with me. I know that there is no partnership future for me, but I do good work and am needed, so I think its a mutually beneficial situation right now. I am thinking about leaving law all together after this, but for now am happy to bank the pay checks. My husband is a partner at another firm, so I am lucky enough that we don't need my biglaw salary long term.

I do think that he probably doesn't have an unlimited runway here, so he should probably start putting some feelers out and think about next steps. Since you aren't really working it doesn't sound like you all can afford to end up in the situation where they want him to leave and you all are scrambling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I do not think its shocking that no one has had a conversation with him. I am 8 years in and no one has had a conversation with me. I know that there is no partnership future for me, but I do good work and am needed, so I think its a mutually beneficial situation right now. I am thinking about leaving law all together after this, but for now am happy to bank the pay checks. My husband is a partner at another firm, so I am lucky enough that we don't need my biglaw salary long term.

I do think that he probably doesn't have an unlimited runway here, so he should probably start putting some feelers out and think about next steps. Since you aren't really working it doesn't sound like you all can afford to end up in the situation where they want him to leave and you all are scrambling.

Just out of curiosity, when do lock-step pay increases stop in BigLaw?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do not think its shocking that no one has had a conversation with him. I am 8 years in and no one has had a conversation with me. I know that there is no partnership future for me, but I do good work and am needed, so I think its a mutually beneficial situation right now. I am thinking about leaving law all together after this, but for now am happy to bank the pay checks. My husband is a partner at another firm, so I am lucky enough that we don't need my biglaw salary long term.

I do think that he probably doesn't have an unlimited runway here, so he should probably start putting some feelers out and think about next steps. Since you aren't really working it doesn't sound like you all can afford to end up in the situation where they want him to leave and you all are scrambling.

Just out of curiosity, when do lock-step pay increases stop in BigLaw?

Year 8.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know the firm better than I do but I worked at a firm (Arnold & Porter) that had a ton of very long term senior associates. The firm was always rattling about doing something about it but in the end needed them to do the work and most of them are still there.

Of course he might make counsel again at the new place. It sounds like that’s his ideal niche?

But if he does have to leave, there’s a lot more out there for former biglaw than the old TLS boards led us to believe.

That's good to know. He's not at Arnold & Porter. it's a branch office of one of the mega-firms, but very good size office. I feel like if he was going to make counsel it would have happened by now, but I could be wrong. I agree that's probably his ideal niche but no idea if that's a role you can lateral into elsewhere if it's not going to happen at his current firm.

Good to know there is more out there. I mean, he's smart and hard working and easy to work with, I'm sure he'll find something. Probably something he'd enjoy more, to be honest. It's more that I want to prepare myself for taking potentially a 50% pay cut. I'm planning on going back to full time work which will help, but was hoping we could make it until our kid is a little older and now not so sure.

Thanks for the insight.

I assume he makes way more than $240k, so wouldn’t you have much more than a 50% pay cut if he goes to gov or in-house (unless he is GC). Are you setup COL Wise to adjust to that?

[Anonymous]

Some firms have a 10-12 year partner track (generally on the longer end for laterals or those who took maternity leave), typically those that don't have a two tier partnership. That timeline could even be extended during the current period, as firms aren't likely to make people partner right now. Usually the counsel discussion happens around that same inflection point.

If he's worked for his current firm for 5+ years, how do you not know their standard partner track? When do they make people counsel?

[Anonymous]

Senior associates are useful for equity partners IF they can manage the junior associates and pretty much run things on a day to day basis — the risky part is when the junior folks get to that level, things may get top heavy.

If the firm does not have non-equity partners/counsel positions it may be that he’s a senior associate for a while, it’s getting harder and harder to make equity partner, as no one wants to make their cut smaller — there’s a really good WSJ article about this from about a year ago...

Also, partner isn’t the guarantee it was 5-10-15years ago and seems like a more miserable existence, frankly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you do? Also does he even like big law? What else would he rather do?

He doesn't like the hours and I do think he'd rather do something less... corporate. He normal travels a lot for work but that's obviously not happening right now and with the way things are going it's not clear he'll be able to do that much in the future. I think he's feeling a little directionless.

I used to be a lawyer (actually at the same firm he is at now) but moved into a non-law job a long time ago. Then I took some time off when we had our daughter. Now I'm back working part time but don't make much at all. I had intended to find a full time job this year but that doesn't seem realistic given my time off and the challenges of finding a job in this economy. Plus our child is still pretty young and it just makes sense for me to be more available right now.

It’s disgusting that you’re online soliciting feedback on his limitations as a lawyer while you haven’t even come close to pulling in half of the family’s income. It might just make sense for him to dump you and find someone who is less entitled.

[Anonymous]

5 to 8 years. End of story.

[Anonymous]

I think he should start thinking about what comes next. This basically happened to me - I was 10 years, my firm actually had been talking to me about making partner and I was definitely on track. But then Covid, and my practice went pretty quiet and now I’m out, with 6 months severance. I’ve found something else already so I’m OK and excited about my new thing, but it was a complete shock and it was a horrible time. A shock because obviously I knew I was quiet for a month or two but I thought since we were talking partnership they would at least let me ride it out and see how the practice took off again post-covid. But no - they were just looking to cut their costs as quickly as possible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You know the firm better than I do but I worked at a firm (Arnold & Porter) that had a ton of very long term senior associates. The firm was always rattling about doing something about it but in the end needed them to do the work and most of them are still there.

Of course he might make counsel again at the new place. It sounds like that’s his ideal niche?

But if he does have to leave, there’s a lot more out there for former biglaw than the old TLS boards led us to believe.

I know several very, very good lawyers at AP who were kept as senior associates for quite a while. Years. One should have made partner and was offered counsel so he said to hell with that and became a partner at another firm. He is now making way more than AP would have paid him. He is getting to keep a larger share of want he is bringing in. AP was hoping to keep taking all the money he was bringing it in and not give him a fair share of the profits by keeping him as counsel and it backfired. AP lost the clients he took with him. Another friend should have been made counsel but they made her stay an associate and she is now in house. I got the impression both could have stayed on as senior associates (and he as counsel) rather indefinitely, but they realized that was kind of a sucky deal, especially since they both worked very long hours.

AP’s newish management - at least when I was around it, from about 2009 to 2017 - really screws associates over by keeping them as associates rather than making them partner or at least counsel. And they’ve lost some good people - and a lot of profits when those people took their work with them - as a result. Maybe they have new management now. Don’t know.

Op, nothing is stable now in law. You should always be saving money in anticipation of being fired or losing a client. Start saving now. And why are you being paid so little? Try to change that. I get not wanting to get a full time job now in the midst of a pandemic with a small child if it means your family can stay safer by not having daycare, etc. But I think you should focus on getting your career in better shape in the next year or two, rather than focusing entirely on your husband’s. Also, make sure your husband has good life insurance and good disability insurance, since you are placing your family’s economic security almost entirely in his basket.