Development vs Team Wins (or record)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are also coaches that focus on recruiting and social media and claim "development" with each win when it's the new players developed elsewhere that are the top scorers and best players on the team.

+1000

FCV?

Actually no. I have experience with a number of different clubs and what the PP describes is very common.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It really doesn’t have to be one versus the other, but business drives the coach and club (and most parents) towards winning, even at the early ages. However, if the coach is teaching properly from a developmental perspective the team will, more often than not, win. Maybe not right away, but eventually they will.

This is exactly what I was thinking as well when I started this thread. There are some coaches that claim “development” because their team(s) always have loosing records year after year.

No you really can not say that. The way the system is set up a good u10 or u15 coach can have a losing record and still develop players. Different ages require different develop strategies and techniques. You seem to think middle school or high school is the highest level. It is not. You can game the age groups and win a lot. I think one of the many failures of the US system is the pressure put on the under 12 players to win. It stifles unstructured play. This is where kid experiment and goof around while playing. It’s important.

[Anonymous]

Coach here; this is a tough one, but here is my take.

Individuals and teams can certainly develop yet not see an improved record. The opposite is also true.

The game results are more determined by who you play against, while some of that is under the control of the club not all leagues are created equal. I've seen bad teams placed in lower leagues beat up on teams, and good teams placed too high lose most their games to even better teams.

Another thing to think about is - there are a lot of decent coaches out there, despite what it may seem reading these forums sometimes. If your team starts out at the bottom, say due to it's talent pool, and still winds up at or near the bottom at the end of the year. That doesn't mean they didn't develop - the other teams are ALSO developing and that is an aspect people tend to forget about.

So will teams that develop win out over teams who don't? - all things being equal, yes, however there are lots of factors, such as how big was the gap in the first place? How much of a timeline are we talking about?

The tough aspect for a lot of parents is they don't even know what development looks like because they don't understand the sport. So if all you have to go by is win/losses well....

To the OP to re-utilize your school analogy, it's like trying to determine how good your child's calculus teacher is when you barely know how to add and subtract. If you don't know enough about the subject, you'll need neutral and knowledgeable third party analysis/opinion to help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Coach here; this is a tough one, but here is my take.

Individuals and teams can certainly develop yet not see an improved record. The opposite is also true.

The game results are more determined by who you play against, while some of that is under the control of the club not all leagues are created equal. I've seen bad teams placed in lower leagues beat up on teams, and good teams placed too high lose most their games to even better teams.

Another thing to think about is - there are a lot of decent coaches out there, despite what it may seem reading these forums sometimes. If your team starts out at the bottom, say due to it's talent pool, and still winds up at or near the bottom at the end of the year. That doesn't mean they didn't develop - the other teams are ALSO developing and that is an aspect people tend to forget about.

So will teams that develop win out over teams who don't? - all things being equal, yes, however there are lots of factors, such as how big was the gap in the first place? How much of a timeline are we talking about?

The tough aspect for a lot of parents is they don't even know what development looks like because they don't understand the sport. So if all you have to go by is win/losses well....

To the OP to re-utilize your school analogy, it's like trying to determine how good your child's calculus teacher is when you barely know how to add and subtract. If you don't know enough about the subject, you'll need neutral and knowledgeable third party analysis/opinion to help.

PLLEEEAAASSSSEEEE. Come on now coach. Soccer isn’t rocket science.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Coach here; this is a tough one, but here is my take.

Individuals and teams can certainly develop yet not see an improved record. The opposite is also true.

The game results are more determined by who you play against, while some of that is under the control of the club not all leagues are created equal. I've seen bad teams placed in lower leagues beat up on teams, and good teams placed too high lose most their games to even better teams.

Another thing to think about is - there are a lot of decent coaches out there, despite what it may seem reading these forums sometimes. If your team starts out at the bottom, say due to it's talent pool, and still winds up at or near the bottom at the end of the year. That doesn't mean they didn't develop - the other teams are ALSO developing and that is an aspect people tend to forget about.

So will teams that develop win out over teams who don't? - all things being equal, yes, however there are lots of factors, such as how big was the gap in the first place? How much of a timeline are we talking about?

The tough aspect for a lot of parents is they don't even know what development looks like because they don't understand the sport. So if all you have to go by is win/losses well....

To the OP to re-utilize your school analogy, it's like trying to determine how good your child's calculus teacher is when you barely know how to add and subtract. If you don't know enough about the subject, you'll need neutral and knowledgeable third party analysis/opinion to help.

+1 Thank you

[Anonymous]

Do you remember which teams ranked 1,2,3 for age groups U10-U15 five or six year ago?

Who CARESS! Only obsessed parents that dream the name of the team will give them fast entry to college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Coach here; this is a tough one, but here is my take.

Individuals and teams can certainly develop yet not see an improved record. The opposite is also true.

The game results are more determined by who you play against, while some of that is under the control of the club not all leagues are created equal. I've seen bad teams placed in lower leagues beat up on teams, and good teams placed too high lose most their games to even better teams.

Another thing to think about is - there are a lot of decent coaches out there, despite what it may seem reading these forums sometimes. If your team starts out at the bottom, say due to it's talent pool, and still winds up at or near the bottom at the end of the year. That doesn't mean they didn't develop - the other teams are ALSO developing and that is an aspect people tend to forget about.

So will teams that develop win out over teams who don't? - all things being equal, yes, however there are lots of factors, such as how big was the gap in the first place? How much of a timeline are we talking about?

The tough aspect for a lot of parents is they don't even know what development looks like because they don't understand the sport. So if all you have to go by is win/losses well....

To the OP to re-utilize your school analogy, it's like trying to determine how good your child's calculus teacher is when you barely know how to add and subtract. If you don't know enough about the subject, you'll need neutral and knowledgeable third party analysis/opinion to help.

Good post. Also, it's important to separate between team progress and player progress. A team may not be winning, but if your DC is developing well, seeing time on the field, and the coach is giving her good feedback, that is worth more than being ignored on the bench under a blanket during a showcase on the "winning" team.

[Anonymous]

Yup compulsive parents, checking the rankings on daily basis. Oh oh X is moving to #1 and Y is falling to second I better start making friends withe coach from X. My DC is national team material she/he needs to be in #1 team.

This forum and others are full of postings from compulsive parents, some losers, they go low.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coach here; this is a tough one, but here is my take.

Individuals and teams can certainly develop yet not see an improved record. The opposite is also true.

The game results are more determined by who you play against, while some of that is under the control of the club not all leagues are created equal. I've seen bad teams placed in lower leagues beat up on teams, and good teams placed too high lose most their games to even better teams.

Another thing to think about is - there are a lot of decent coaches out there, despite what it may seem reading these forums sometimes. If your team starts out at the bottom, say due to it's talent pool, and still winds up at or near the bottom at the end of the year. That doesn't mean they didn't develop - the other teams are ALSO developing and that is an aspect people tend to forget about.

So will teams that develop win out over teams who don't? - all things being equal, yes, however there are lots of factors, such as how big was the gap in the first place? How much of a timeline are we talking about?

The tough aspect for a lot of parents is they don't even know what development looks like because they don't understand the sport. So if all you have to go by is win/losses well....

To the OP to re-utilize your school analogy, it's like trying to determine how good your child's calculus teacher is when you barely know how to add and subtract. If you don't know enough about the subject, you'll need neutral and knowledgeable third party analysis/opinion to help.

Good post. Also, it's important to separate between team progress and player progress. A team may not be winning, but if your DC is developing well, seeing time on the field, and the coach is giving her good feedback, that is worth more than being ignored on the bench under a blanket during a showcase on the "winning" team.

True, but most kids need to win more than lose; otherwise, their motivation won't last very long. Winning is important. Not the most important by far...but it can't be overlooked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coach here; this is a tough one, but here is my take.

Individuals and teams can certainly develop yet not see an improved record. The opposite is also true.

The game results are more determined by who you play against, while some of that is under the control of the club not all leagues are created equal. I've seen bad teams placed in lower leagues beat up on teams, and good teams placed too high lose most their games to even better teams.

Another thing to think about is - there are a lot of decent coaches out there, despite what it may seem reading these forums sometimes. If your team starts out at the bottom, say due to it's talent pool, and still winds up at or near the bottom at the end of the year. That doesn't mean they didn't develop - the other teams are ALSO developing and that is an aspect people tend to forget about.

So will teams that develop win out over teams who don't? - all things being equal, yes, however there are lots of factors, such as how big was the gap in the first place? How much of a timeline are we talking about?

The tough aspect for a lot of parents is they don't even know what development looks like because they don't understand the sport. So if all you have to go by is win/losses well....

To the OP to re-utilize your school analogy, it's like trying to determine how good your child's calculus teacher is when you barely know how to add and subtract. If you don't know enough about the subject, you'll need neutral and knowledgeable third party analysis/opinion to help.

Good post. Also, it's important to separate between team progress and player progress. A team may not be winning, but if your DC is developing well, seeing time on the field, and the coach is giving her good feedback, that is worth more than being ignored on the bench under a blanket during a showcase on the "winning" team.

True, but most kids need to win more than lose; otherwise, their motivation won't last very long. Winning is important. Not the most important by far...but it can't be overlooked.

I agree to a point. Never winning is a problem. Not a single win ever wears players down. A small # of wins, a tie here and there and a lot of close games is not bad. The very best is to be in the middle. A team that always wins is not being challenged, and usually finds that out when it goes to a larger event like a national showcase.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coach here; this is a tough one, but here is my take.

Individuals and teams can certainly develop yet not see an improved record. The opposite is also true.

The game results are more determined by who you play against, while some of that is under the control of the club not all leagues are created equal. I've seen bad teams placed in lower leagues beat up on teams, and good teams placed too high lose most their games to even better teams.

Another thing to think about is - there are a lot of decent coaches out there, despite what it may seem reading these forums sometimes. If your team starts out at the bottom, say due to it's talent pool, and still winds up at or near the bottom at the end of the year. That doesn't mean they didn't develop - the other teams are ALSO developing and that is an aspect people tend to forget about.

So will teams that develop win out over teams who don't? - all things being equal, yes, however there are lots of factors, such as how big was the gap in the first place? How much of a timeline are we talking about?

The tough aspect for a lot of parents is they don't even know what development looks like because they don't understand the sport. So if all you have to go by is win/losses well....

To the OP to re-utilize your school analogy, it's like trying to determine how good your child's calculus teacher is when you barely know how to add and subtract. If you don't know enough about the subject, you'll need neutral and knowledgeable third party analysis/opinion to help.

Good post. Also, it's important to separate between team progress and player progress. A team may not be winning, but if your DC is developing well, seeing time on the field, and the coach is giving her good feedback, that is worth more than being ignored on the bench under a blanket during a showcase on the "winning" team.

True, but most kids need to win more than lose; otherwise, their motivation won't last very long. Winning is important. Not the most important by far...but it can't be overlooked.

While winning isn’t everything, it is important.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/13447657/james-harrison-pittsburgh-steelers-takes-away-kids-participation-trophies-says-awards-earned

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do you remember which teams ranked 1,2,3 for age groups U10-U15 five or six year ago?

Who CARESS! Only obsessed parents that dream the name of the team will give them fast entry to college.

+1

[Anonymous]

Coach here again.

While I'd hesitate to use the word winning. I will say finding the right level of competition is a very important aspect in the learning process.

To re-use the school analogy, you wouldn't give a student a test that they have little hope of passing. Alternatively you wouldn't give them a test that is basic when they are at an advanced level. As a teacher you won't learn much about your students this way (aside from possibly identifying some not so smart ones and some genius).

While there are some very elite teams that may struggle to find actual competition, the vast majority of teams have plenty of options when it comes to competition.

The question is, is your coach/club the type to try and place your team in appropriately challenging competitions, or are they looking for easy wins (or the opposite - think your team is better then it is and places your team in poor positions to succeed.)

As for winning being an important part of the player's phyche; it's part of our job as coaches and parents to help them identify success and failure beyond wining and losing. I've praised my teams in loses where I thought we played well, and I've let my team know when I felt the win was undeserved, and where we need to do better.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous

PLLEEEAAASSSSEEEE. Come on now coach. Soccer isn’t rocket science.

Coach again:

You're right, it's not. As someone who's been coaching a long time and involved with the sport for even longer, it's easy for me to identify progress in a player over time.

That being said I can also tell you with certainty that your average parent hasn't a clue. I view it as part of my job to help them understand what progress looks like and what end result we're looking for. It's a loooong road from u-littles to college (and perhaps beyond).

If you're on this forum, I'd wager you're already beyond what I would considering the average parent. Most parents couldn't name the league above or below the one they are in (not division... league). Most parents couldn't name the coaches an age group above or below their current team, hell even within their own age group! Most parents don't understand the difference between Jeffersons Cup and a coffee cup (that's a joke folks).

For those rare ones that are willing to go out and try to educate themselves (as perhaps the OP is), I try to do my best to give a neutral observation, based on my experience. Just my 2c.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[quote=Anonymous

PLLEEEAAASSSSEEEE. Come on now coach. Soccer isn’t rocket science.

Coach again:

You're right, it's not. As someone who's been coaching a long time and involved with the sport for even longer, it's easy for me to identify progress in a player over time.

That being said I can also tell you with certainty that your average parent hasn't a clue. I view it as part of my job to help them understand what progress looks like and what end result we're looking for. It's a loooong road from u-littles to college (and perhaps beyond).

If you're on this forum, I'd wager you're already beyond what I would considering the average parent. Most parents couldn't name the league above or below the one they are in (not division... league). Most parents couldn't name the coaches an age group above or below their current team, hell even within their own age group! Most parents don't understand the difference between Jeffersons Cup and a coffee cup (that's a joke folks).

For those rare ones that are willing to go out and try to educate themselves (as perhaps the OP is), I try to do my best to give a neutral observation, based on my experience. Just my 2c.

Great post, Coach. I’m the PP.