Cost of Estate Planning

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm an estate planning attorney in a very small firm. I charge $1000 for wills, powers of attorney, and medical directives for a couple - so 6 docs. I charge $2000 if you want to do those 6 docs plus revocable trusts. I agree with the previous posters, though, that in today's estate tax world revocable trusts aren't needed for most people. I actively dissuade my clients from them except for certain circumstances like 2nd marriages, property in multiple states, high net worth, etc. Too many people get revocable trusts then don't retitle assets into them so its a big fat waste of time and money.

I've never understood this phenomenon. Why pay an attorney to create a living trust and not put your biggest asset (the house) in it? And why don't attorneys just do it as part of the package?

My mother did a whole living trust package from a local firm that advertises a lot and offers free lunches. My sibling or I suggested it probably wasn't necessary but she didn't really want us involved. We never saw it until she had a health scare and handed us a file with all the paperwork. The forms were drafted competently enough, but she did not understand she had to do anything to fund the living trust. Now if only we can convince her to spend every penny she has and not penny pinch to leave an inheritance!

[Anonymous]

I am a real estate attorney. I am involved in billions of transactions annually and see lots of wills and trusts. Many lawyers are awful and whether they charged $3K or $300 you were ripped off. Cost does not necessarily equate with what you get. But there are many horrid wills and trust out there.

[Anonymous]

I am bumping this thread Because, and this is a morbid topic, my parents are interested in finding an estate planner or estate planning lawyer Because Biden’s new tax bill is very aggressive. They own about $13m in real estate and $2m in stock. As of now, there is a revocable trust in place that we set up about 10 years ago. It looks like the estate tax exemption will be greatly lowered soon and so before any legislation is an acted we’re hoping to get a jump on the whole thing and set up some kind of estate plan to minimize taxes.

Can anyone recommend someone good in the DC area, hopefully somebody who has real estate experience as well? Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most people don’t need a living trust. It’s a money grab by the estate planning trade. It’s fine to direct the establishment of a trust in the event you die with minor children, but putting all your assets in a living trust is generally an unnecessary complication in life. Don’t let the attorney convince you that it is necessary to avoid probate because that is “such a long and expensive process.” That is also generally not true.

Hold on a minute. My in laws set up a living trust at my spouse's suggestion and it made things very, very easy when they passed, I totally disagree with you on this. Probate may not always be "long and expensive," but it is definitely longer and more expensive than having a trust -- and it's also a public process. Some folks value their privacy.

[Anonymous]

We just paid $1200 for all estate documents for 2 people - wills, POAs, advanced directives, etc.

We did not establish a trust. Do you want the trust established now or just direction for the establishment of a trust upon your death?

[Anonymous]

What are the disadvantages of a testamentary trust? We are also in the process of selecting an attorney to do our documents and have been quoted $3500 or about $5000 if we want to include a living trust.

[Anonymous]

We paid a lawyer in Rockville a flat fee of $800 to do these things. It really is not that complicated. There is not a reason to be paying someone $4000 for this.

[Anonymous]

I paid about $1800 for the full works. No trusts, but a full work up of will, estate and powers of attorney etc. It's just me and my kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've been working on getting our estate planning done right now and have gotten a couple of quotes. A solo practitioner working out of their house quoted me 3K. A different solo practitioner working out of Bethesda office space quoted 2K. (Which surprised me - I just assumed the one working out of their house would be cheaper. But I did get the sense from talking with that attorney that they favored a more collaborative approach and would spend more time talking through options than the attorney charging 2K, so perhaps the more expensive attorney just knows they put more hours into each client.)

I'm waiting to hear back from a small boutique firm with 4 or 5 attorneys working out of Rockville for their quote, though they have told me thus far that they wait until after an initial consultation in order to decide whether they'll charge by the hour or charge a flat fee. Given the price differences, I do think it's worthwhile to call around. When my in-laws updated their estate planning a year or two ago, different attorneys in the Bethesda firm they went to charged different amounts. (The in-laws didn't remember what they paid when I asked.)

What does the size of the firm or the workspace setup have anything to do with the quality of the advice you receive? And why do these and the price seem to be the only criteria you are considering? The price should reflect the complexity of the matter, the expertise of the attorney, the liability the attorney assumes and the time that goes into advising you. $2k or $3k are insultingly cheap. This equates to an hourly rate lower than that of a plumber. And the plumber does not assume long-term professional liability in the amount of several millions of $$.

I am a tax and estate attorney. I handle complex matters with international components. My hourly rate at $430 is way lower than what my peers with lesser qualifications charge ($800+). I chose to work as a sole practitioner in order to have the flexibility to care for my young child (and thank goodness for that, see Covid). Over the years plenty of big law firms approached me and asked me to join them. But, I would have had to raise my hourly rate to at least $650 to pay for their overhead and partner profit. My service would have been the same.

[Anonymous]

^^^ I am the PP. In 80% of the cases I have to redo inappropriate and shoddy estate plans that were just basically names filled in some templates. The correct legal advice tailored to your situation is very valuable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been working on getting our estate planning done right now and have gotten a couple of quotes. A solo practitioner working out of their house quoted me 3K. A different solo practitioner working out of Bethesda office space quoted 2K. (Which surprised me - I just assumed the one working out of their house would be cheaper. But I did get the sense from talking with that attorney that they favored a more collaborative approach and would spend more time talking through options than the attorney charging 2K, so perhaps the more expensive attorney just knows they put more hours into each client.)

I'm waiting to hear back from a small boutique firm with 4 or 5 attorneys working out of Rockville for their quote, though they have told me thus far that they wait until after an initial consultation in order to decide whether they'll charge by the hour or charge a flat fee. Given the price differences, I do think it's worthwhile to call around. When my in-laws updated their estate planning a year or two ago, different attorneys in the Bethesda firm they went to charged different amounts. (The in-laws didn't remember what they paid when I asked.)

What does the size of the firm or the workspace setup have anything to do with the quality of the advice you receive? And why do these and the price seem to be the only criteria you are considering? The price should reflect the complexity of the matter, the expertise of the attorney, the liability the attorney assumes and the time that goes into advising you. $2k or $3k are insultingly cheap. This equates to an hourly rate lower than that of a plumber. And the plumber does not assume long-term professional liability in the amount of several millions of $$.

I am a tax and estate attorney. I handle complex matters with international components. My hourly rate at $430 is way lower than what my peers with lesser qualifications charge ($800+). I chose to work as a sole practitioner in order to have the flexibility to care for my young child (and thank goodness for that, see Covid). Over the years plenty of big law firms approached me and asked me to join them. But, I would have had to raise my hourly rate to at least $650 to pay for their overhead and partner profit. My service would have been the same.

Since you are experienced with the complications presented by international components, I would be very interesting in talking to you if possible. I am a non-American citizen living in Maryland. Is there a way I can contact you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We paid a lawyer in Rockville a flat fee of $800 to do these things. It really is not that complicated. There is not a reason to be paying someone $4000 for this.

Would you mind sharing who you used in Rockville?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm an estate planning attorney in a very small firm. I charge $1000 for wills, powers of attorney, and medical directives for a couple - so 6 docs. I charge $2000 if you want to do those 6 docs plus revocable trusts. I agree with the previous posters, though, that in today's estate tax world revocable trusts aren't needed for most people. I actively dissuade my clients from them except for certain circumstances like 2nd marriages, property in multiple states, high net worth, etc. Too many people get revocable trusts then don't retitle assets into them so its a big fat waste of time and money.

What about accounts at Vanguard and Fidelity ? Should those names be in name of the XXX Revocable Trust dated XXX or can the beneficiary of the taxable Vanguard account be the trust as the Primary?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most people don’t need a living trust. It’s a money grab by the estate planning trade. It’s fine to direct the establishment of a trust in the event you die with minor children, but putting all your assets in a living trust is generally an unnecessary complication in life. Don’t let the attorney convince you that it is necessary to avoid probate because that is “such a long and expensive process.” That is also generally not true.

Hold on a minute. My in laws set up a living trust at my spouse's suggestion and it made things very, very easy when they passed, I totally disagree with you on this. Probate may not always be "long and expensive," but it is definitely longer and more expensive than having a trust -- and it's also a public process. Some folks value their privacy.

Not necessarily. And if someone wants to make trouble, a trust doesn’t stop that, and there are sometimes advantages to probate in those cases.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been working on getting our estate planning done right now and have gotten a couple of quotes. A solo practitioner working out of their house quoted me 3K. A different solo practitioner working out of Bethesda office space quoted 2K. (Which surprised me - I just assumed the one working out of their house would be cheaper. But I did get the sense from talking with that attorney that they favored a more collaborative approach and would spend more time talking through options than the attorney charging 2K, so perhaps the more expensive attorney just knows they put more hours into each client.)

I'm waiting to hear back from a small boutique firm with 4 or 5 attorneys working out of Rockville for their quote, though they have told me thus far that they wait until after an initial consultation in order to decide whether they'll charge by the hour or charge a flat fee. Given the price differences, I do think it's worthwhile to call around. When my in-laws updated their estate planning a year or two ago, different attorneys in the Bethesda firm they went to charged different amounts. (The in-laws didn't remember what they paid when I asked.)

What does the size of the firm or the workspace setup have anything to do with the quality of the advice you receive? And why do these and the price seem to be the only criteria you are considering? The price should reflect the complexity of the matter, the expertise of the attorney, the liability the attorney assumes and the time that goes into advising you. $2k or $3k are insultingly cheap. This equates to an hourly rate lower than that of a plumber. And the plumber does not assume long-term professional liability in the amount of several millions of $$.

I am a tax and estate attorney. I handle complex matters with international components. My hourly rate at $430 is way lower than what my peers with lesser qualifications charge ($800+). I chose to work as a sole practitioner in order to have the flexibility to care for my young child (and thank goodness for that, see Covid). Over the years plenty of big law firms approached me and asked me to join them. But, I would have had to raise my hourly rate to at least $650 to pay for their overhead and partner profit. My service would have been the same.

I wrote the original message you are responding to. What I didn’t say in my message because it wasn’t relevant to the OP’s question, was that I was specifically talking to lawyers with an expertise in special needs planning. We have a child with serious health needs who will never be able to live independently, and we had a trust drawn up for her. We got multiple recommendations from different people, including people who have done similar planning and from other lawyers and did extensive research on attorneys. So you’re wrong to assume we only considered price. Everyone we got a quote from was an expert in the area of estate planning that was most important for us.

I pointed out the workspace and the staff because those are things that impact the lawyers costs, completely separate from the quality of the advice they provide (which you note yourself when you say you’d have to raise your fees if you joined a firm). If you think 2k or 3K is insultingly cheap, your beef is with the attorneys who set their fees, not me. My point was that there are lots of factors that go into how people price the exact same service, and it’s not just based on their expertise. The attorney charging the least was the oldest (and most experienced), and has lower costs because he bought a house 30 years ago and doesn’t have kids at home he’s supporting anymore. The woman charging 3K works out of her home in PG County, which probably means her expenses are lower (though I got the impression she also works part time because of kids, which may be part of her higher cost) and the firm in Rockville with multiple attorneys and a number of support staff quoted 5K (even though they were the least responsive and the most difficult to schedule with). Even with equally qualified professionals, it is worth it to shop around.