IB - chance that schools will drop IB for AP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're looking at buying a home in Fairfax and want to take high schools into account (our kids are more than a decade from high school and I realize that boundaries move, but we're hoping to only have to buy once). I have a strong preference for AP over IB and was wondering if there was any sense of whether Fairfax may move away from IB long-term. I know this is a bit of a crystal ball question, but I was wondering if there had been any rumblings.

OP, buy your home where you find the house you want to buy. There is no rumbling like you're hoping for, and even if there were -- it would be just that, rumbling and rumor, and could change next year or in five years or never. We're very involved in our high schooler's IB FCPS high school and haven't heard any such talk. There are people on DCUM who have a very strong anti-IB bias, and who know little about the reality of doing IB so they tend to spread a lot of wrong information about how the program actually works, so please take with a grain of salt any proclamations about how awful IB is and how they're hearing it's going to be axed.

If your children approach HS age and the assigned HS is an IB school, do an academic transfer to the appropriate AP school. For much of ES (unless your child is going to move to an AAP center school) and MS (same), you have little to no choice about where you child goes; for HS you can get some choice if you do an AP/IB academic transfer, so that would be of less concern to me, 10 years away from HS age, than the ES and MS for your new home.

I think this is misleading. If you prefer AP, it is best to buy in an AP-zoned district, as close to that school as possible. For many years, it was relatively easy to pupil place from an IB-zoned school to an AP-school. In fact, that resulted in a lot of pupil placements from Lee to West Springfield and from Annandale to Woodson, which actually undermined FCPS's original objective when installing IB at a number of schools, which was to stem white flight. But as mentioned earlier, many schools are now closed to pupil placements and may remain so for years to come. It's one thing to buy in the Robinson district if you know you can pupil place to Lake Braddock if you want, but it's another to buy in the Marshall district and find out years later that the nearest AP school open to transfers turns out to be Hayfield.

[Anonymous]

If you are in an IB pyramid and want to transfer to an AP school, you have to provide your own transportation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Other than the theory of knowledge course which is unique, why is IB desirable if kids in general are not well rounded enough to get an IB diploma?

you also have to do 50 hours of community service in each of three genres and a long thesis-type of paper. But, most of the kids in the IB schools are are the lower end of the SES ladder and therefore, it's more of the population not being IB-capable. That said, I didn't like the structure of the IB program (pre-defined requirements: must do one class in each of 6 subject areas, plus the things listed above).... so when we were looking to move, the IB pyramids were deal-breakers for us. It was maddening to our real estate agent, and frustrating for us b/c there were houses that would have been good for us but for the IB. We went with an AP pyramid b/c it has a more a la carte program.

If your kid is definitely a strong student and motivated to complete all the different requirements for IB, it is a good program and will look good for applications. BUT, if you have kids who may or may not be strong in one or more subjects, and may not be ambitious enough to complete the outside requirements, then IB is not ideal. AP gives more flexibility without the stigma of "didn't go the extra mile."

Re: bold above: You're referring to the IB diploma requirement of six classes plus Theory of Knowledge class and the extended essay and service.

Those are for the diploma. But any student in an IB school can take any IB class as an "a la carte" class, like AP students take AP classes a la carte. It's a common misunderstanding about IB, but it's not true that everyone must do the full diploma. While there's a lot of emphasis on trying to do the full IB diploma, any student can take any IB classes, and the IB exams that conclude the classes. And colleges will look at those a la carte IB classes and many give credit for them-- you do not have to have the full IB diploma course load for a college to consider your one or more solo IB classes.

There are often claims on DCUM that "colleges are more familiar with AP and AP gets you out of some college classes" but DC is currently visiting and applying to colleges and every single one has discussed IB and AP in the same way, admissions officers have said they see increasing numbers of both IB diploma students and students with some IB classes, and they are familiar with the level of work involved in IB just as they are for AP. I don't know that colleges have a "stigma of 'didn't go the extra mile'" as PP thinks.

I'm not here to try to convince the OP that IB is right for her kids; I'm just correcting some misconceptions about the idea that the diploma path is the only thing IB is about.

I'm not misunderstanding IB. I know that you can take it in pieces. But, you are in a system where you are doing less than the full diploma. In an AP school, there is no "full" AP program. It is understood and assumed that you are taking it a la carte. So there is no implication that you didn't do the full program when other people did. You pick two English AP classes if you like English. You pick several AP math classes if you like math. You do what plays to your strength. Yes, you can take a few IB classes in an IB school, but you are by definition not doing the full diploma -- meaning some kids are.

[Anonymous]

I think the thread is going to devolve into a typical argument as to whether kids should only go to an IB school if they know they want to do the full IB diploma program. I tend to agree with the PP about that, but it's not really what OP is asking about. She's asking whether there's a good chance that FCPS will switch some of the IB programs back to AP in the future.

On that score, there's not a lot of reason to think so. People have been saying for years that it's crazy to have five IB schools (Annandale, Edison, Justice, Lee and Mount Vernon) concentrated in the part of the county where it is probably the LEAST likely that a significant percentage of the students will do the full IB program, and FCPS has done next to nothing to revisit that concentration of IB schools. Instead, they listen to the small minority of parents of kids at schools like Lee who got an IB diploma.

This would matter less if it remained easy to pupil place, and OP knew it would easy to arrange transportation to an AP school in the future. But FCPS gives principals the discretion to close their schools to pupil placements when they are above capacity, and more principals have been exercising that discretion as their schools have filled up with in-boundary kids. So the simple answer for OP is that there's a chance FCPS will drop IB at some schools for AP, but she can't count on it, and she really just ought to focus her attention on AP schools if that's the curriculum she prefers. Let someone else duke it out over whether non-diploma kids at IB schools are at a disadvantage or how many AP courses are comparable to a full IB diploma.

[Anonymous]

There is no way to predict what programs will be offered, what colleges will value, and what style of education will be right for your kids when they’re teens. Just pick a house and roll with life as it comes

[Anonymous]

If you strongly prefer AP, buy a house zoned for an AP school. Sure, you might get redistricted to an IB school, but you're still better off than buying in an IB district and hoping FCPS will just switch the school back to AP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is no way to predict what programs will be offered, what colleges will value, and what style of education will be right for your kids when they’re teens. Just pick a house and roll with life as it comes

Actually, there is. Every IB high school in FCPS was switched over from AP between 1994 and 2001. No additional high schools have converted to IB for the past 17 years, and the two high schools that opened since 2000 (Westfield and South County) are both AP.

So if you buy in an AP district, there is a very good chance it will remain AP. The enthusiasm for new IB programs at the high school level in FCPS has clearly diminished. In some cases, FCPS is trying to improve the IB programs at the high school level by adding IB at feeder elementary and middle schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you are in an IB pyramid and want to transfer to an AP school, you have to provide your own transportation.

[/quote

Yes. But the same applies if you are assigned to an AP school and do a transfer to an IB school. Same either way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Other than the theory of knowledge course which is unique, why is IB desirable if kids in general are not well rounded enough to get an IB diploma?

you also have to do 50 hours of community service in each of three genres and a long thesis-type of paper. But, most of the kids in the IB schools are are the lower end of the SES ladder and therefore, it's more of the population not being IB-capable. That said, I didn't like the structure of the IB program (pre-defined requirements: must do one class in each of 6 subject areas, plus the things listed above).... so when we were looking to move, the IB pyramids were deal-breakers for us. It was maddening to our real estate agent, and frustrating for us b/c there were houses that would have been good for us but for the IB. We went with an AP pyramid b/c it has a more a la carte program.

If your kid is definitely a strong student and motivated to complete all the different requirements for IB, it is a good program and will look good for applications. BUT, if you have kids who may or may not be strong in one or more subjects, and may not be ambitious enough to complete the outside requirements, then IB is not ideal. AP gives more flexibility without the stigma of "didn't go the extra mile."

Re: bold above: You're referring to the IB diploma requirement of six classes plus Theory of Knowledge class and the extended essay and service.

Those are for the diploma. But any student in an IB school can take any IB class as an "a la carte" class, like AP students take AP classes a la carte. It's a common misunderstanding about IB, but it's not true that everyone must do the full diploma. While there's a lot of emphasis on trying to do the full IB diploma, any student can take any IB classes, and the IB exams that conclude the classes. And colleges will look at those a la carte IB classes and many give credit for them-- you do not have to have the full IB diploma course load for a college to consider your one or more solo IB classes.

There are often claims on DCUM that "colleges are more familiar with AP and AP gets you out of some college classes" but DC is currently visiting and applying to colleges and every single one has discussed IB and AP in the same way, admissions officers have said they see increasing numbers of both IB diploma students and students with some IB classes, and they are familiar with the level of work involved in IB just as they are for AP. I don't know that colleges have a "stigma of 'didn't go the extra mile'" as PP thinks.

I'm not here to try to convince the OP that IB is right for her kids; I'm just correcting some misconceptions about the idea that the diploma path is the only thing IB is about.

I'm not misunderstanding IB. I know that you can take it in pieces. But, you are in a system where you are doing less than the full diploma. In an AP school, there is no "full" AP program. It is understood and assumed that you are taking it a la carte. So there is no implication that you didn't do the full program when other people did. You pick two English AP classes if you like English. You pick several AP math classes if you like math. You do what plays to your strength. Yes, you can take a few IB classes in an IB school, but you are by definition not doing the full diploma -- meaning some kids are.

I wonder if you had a bad experience with someone saying that doing anything less than the full diploma was looked down on (by the school? Other families? Colleges?). At our IB HS, yes, the diploma is considered an academically strong thing to do if you can -- but the counselors also put real effort into talking to students and actually encouraging them to drop the diploma track if it's killing them and/or they're struggling with making it. Students who do even one IB course but not the diploma track are supported and encouraged and like AP students they can take classes that appeal to their strengths. Maybe your concern is more about colleges seeing individual IB courses that aren't on a diploma track and thinking the student is "less than" for not doing the diploma. I can only say six different colleges have told us they value the diploma because they know students who do it are doing it across different subjects (including ones that may not be the student's especial strength) but they also look favorably at individual IB classes like they look at individual AP classes--they know the level of rigor involved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Yes. But the same applies if you are assigned to an AP school and do a transfer to an IB school. Same either way.

True, but also irrelevant if you are OP and trying to avoid the IB school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Other than the theory of knowledge course which is unique, why is IB desirable if kids in general are not well rounded enough to get an IB diploma?

you also have to do 50 hours of community service in each of three genres and a long thesis-type of paper. But, most of the kids in the IB schools are are the lower end of the SES ladder and therefore, it's more of the population not being IB-capable. That said, I didn't like the structure of the IB program (pre-defined requirements: must do one class in each of 6 subject areas, plus the things listed above).... so when we were looking to move, the IB pyramids were deal-breakers for us. It was maddening to our real estate agent, and frustrating for us b/c there were houses that would have been good for us but for the IB. We went with an AP pyramid b/c it has a more a la carte program.

If your kid is definitely a strong student and motivated to complete all the different requirements for IB, it is a good program and will look good for applications. BUT, if you have kids who may or may not be strong in one or more subjects, and may not be ambitious enough to complete the outside requirements, then IB is not ideal. AP gives more flexibility without the stigma of "didn't go the extra mile."

Re: bold above: You're referring to the IB diploma requirement of six classes plus Theory of Knowledge class and the extended essay and service.

Those are for the diploma. But any student in an IB school can take any IB class as an "a la carte" class, like AP students take AP classes a la carte. It's a common misunderstanding about IB, but it's not true that everyone must do the full diploma. While there's a lot of emphasis on trying to do the full IB diploma, any student can take any IB classes, and the IB exams that conclude the classes. And colleges will look at those a la carte IB classes and many give credit for them-- you do not have to have the full IB diploma course load for a college to consider your one or more solo IB classes.

There are often claims on DCUM that "colleges are more familiar with AP and AP gets you out of some college classes" but DC is currently visiting and applying to colleges and every single one has discussed IB and AP in the same way, admissions officers have said they see increasing numbers of both IB diploma students and students with some IB classes, and they are familiar with the level of work involved in IB just as they are for AP. I don't know that colleges have a "stigma of 'didn't go the extra mile'" as PP thinks.

I'm not here to try to convince the OP that IB is right for her kids; I'm just correcting some misconceptions about the idea that the diploma path is the only thing IB is about.

I'm not misunderstanding IB. I know that you can take it in pieces. But, you are in a system where you are doing less than the full diploma. In an AP school, there is no "full" AP program. It is understood and assumed that you are taking it a la carte. So there is no implication that you didn't do the full program when other people did. You pick two English AP classes if you like English. You pick several AP math classes if you like math. You do what plays to your strength. Yes, you can take a few IB classes in an IB school, but you are by definition not doing the full diploma -- meaning some kids are.

I wonder if you had a bad experience with someone saying that doing anything less than the full diploma was looked down on (by the school? Other families? Colleges?). At our IB HS, yes, the diploma is considered an academically strong thing to do if you can -- but the counselors also put real effort into talking to students and actually encouraging them to drop the diploma track if it's killing them and/or they're struggling with making it. Students who do even one IB course but not the diploma track are supported and encouraged and like AP students they can take classes that appeal to their strengths. Maybe your concern is more about colleges seeing individual IB courses that aren't on a diploma track and thinking the student is "less than" for not doing the diploma. I can only say six different colleges have told us they value the diploma because they know students who do it are doing it across different subjects (including ones that may not be the student's especial strength) but they also look favorably at individual IB classes like they look at individual AP classes--they know the level of rigor involved.

I wonder why you keep beating this dead horse when OP expressed a clear preference for AP. Is it important to you to convince others that an IB class is as good as an AP class, but that an IB diploma is somehow better than AP? Or does it bother you that someone might not consider a house in your neighborhood because you're zoned for an IB school?

Admissions officers are good at figuring out what parents want to hear and adjusting their answers accordingly. Many believe, however, that non-IB diploma candidates at IB schools are at a disadvantage compared to both IB diploma candidates and students taking AP. It is much easier for admissions officers to look at students at IB schools in a binary manner: either they are IB diploma candidates or they are not. Or, as a UVA admissions officer once reportedly said in a moment of candor: "If you are at an IB school and you are not going for the IB diploma, don’t waste your time applying to UVa. or any other top-rated schools. Your child’s application will go to the bottom of the admissions pile."

IB has other disadvantages. The scheduling at an IB school is oriented around making sure that the diploma candidates can fulfill all the IBO requirements. If that disadvantages the non-IB diploma kids, the school's hands are tied, and the IBO could not care less. Satisfying the diploma requirements also limits an IB student's ability to pursue individual subject areas in greater depth, which could help a student stand out when applying to colleges and universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Other than the theory of knowledge course which is unique, why is IB desirable if kids in general are not well rounded enough to get an IB diploma?

Not all kids in AP schools take all that many, either.

[Anonymous]

I like the fact that the College Board acknowledges students who've done well on AP exams through the various AP Scholar Awards, and has added courses like AP Research and AP Seminar that are research and writing-intensive. IB seems far more prescriptive (i.e., here are the hoops you need to jump through to get an IB diploma).

In other words, AP places more faith in the ability of students to select appropriate courses. IB is more like a merit badge for doing what the IBO decided makes the IBO happy.

[Anonymous]

Or, as a UVA admissions officer once reportedly said in a moment of candor: "If you are at an IB school and you are not going for the IB diploma, don’t waste your time applying to UVa. or any other top-rated schools. Your child’s application will go to the bottom of the admissions pile."

This was literally never said.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Or, as a UVA admissions officer once reportedly said in a moment of candor: "If you are at an IB school and you are not going for the IB diploma, don’t waste your time applying to UVa. or any other top-rated schools. Your child’s application will go to the bottom of the admissions pile."

This was literally never said.

So it was just a paraphrase? The statement certainly has been reported.