High school math sequence

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could sonmeone comment on how hard multi variable calculus is at Blair for a senior year class. My kid is not a math genius but finds Honors Precalc as a 10th grader quite easy. That seems to put her on a path for AP Calc BC junior year, right. If she doesn’t want to look like she’s phoning it in by taking AP Stats senior year, but maybe couldn’t hold her own against magnet kids, what’s a good path for her?

I would probably recommend AP Calc AB as a junior, AP Calc BC as a senior. She doesn't need to take multivariable calc unless she is definitely going to be an engineer or math major.

I actually recommend this even more IF they are going into a math major or engineer. Many kids find the Calc courses in college much more rigorous. Getting AB and then BC in two years really establishes a firm ground on Calculus. Multivariable isn't a weighted course either, at least in our school. Many kids go back to Calc 2 for college, not matter how much Calc they took in school. Jumping or bypassing Calc 3 in college is not recommended for STEM majors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could sonmeone comment on how hard multi variable calculus is at Blair for a senior year class. My kid is not a math genius but finds Honors Precalc as a 10th grader quite easy. That seems to put her on a path for AP Calc BC junior year, right. If she doesn’t want to look like she’s phoning it in by taking AP Stats senior year, but maybe couldn’t hold her own against magnet kids, what’s a good path for her?

I would probably recommend AP Calc AB as a junior, AP Calc BC as a senior. She doesn't need to take multivariable calc unless she is definitely going to be an engineer or math major.

I actually recommend this even more IF they are going into a math major or engineer. Many kids find the Calc courses in college much more rigorous. Getting AB and then BC in two years really establishes a firm ground on Calculus. Multivariable isn't a weighted course either, at least in our school. Many kids go back to Calc 2 for college, not matter how much Calc they took in school. Jumping or bypassing Calc 3 in college is not recommended for STEM majors.

Completely disagree with this. Calc AB and BC are essentially the same material, except that BC moves faster because it covers just a few more topics in the end... That is essentially it. Making a kid (who is already bored by easy precalc class) take 2 years of the same thing pretty much ensures they will hate math and possibly move away from math/STEM in college! Parents don't consider doing this, it is not a good idea for most kids.

Taking BC after AB is a terrible design because it's a big waste of time. It would only be logical for a small fraction of kids who are semi averse to math and need to go slower and have nothing to take after AB (e.g they somehow took stats, but aren't comfortable enough to jump into multivariable or any other advanced math class, so they make them take BC because well... they have to take a math course each year of high school).

Another myth stated above: One does not need 2 years of repetitive, computational high school calculus to succeed in a college engineering program. Almost all the math needed for engineering will be learned in college. So the sharp kids opt to take a faster version of calc (BC), and the ones who need to go slower take AB. Simple as that, and duplicating it is crazy overkill.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could sonmeone comment on how hard multi variable calculus is at Blair for a senior year class. My kid is not a math genius but finds Honors Precalc as a 10th grader quite easy. That seems to put her on a path for AP Calc BC junior year, right. If she doesn’t want to look like she’s phoning it in by taking AP Stats senior year, but maybe couldn’t hold her own against magnet kids, what’s a good path for her?

I would probably recommend AP Calc AB as a junior, AP Calc BC as a senior. She doesn't need to take multivariable calc unless she is definitely going to be an engineer or math major.

I actually recommend this even more IF they are going into a math major or engineer. Many kids find the Calc courses in college much more rigorous. Getting AB and then BC in two years really establishes a firm ground on Calculus. Multivariable isn't a weighted course either, at least in our school. Many kids go back to Calc 2 for college, not matter how much Calc they took in school. Jumping or bypassing Calc 3 in college is not recommended for STEM majors.

Completely disagree with this. Calc AB and BC are essentially the same material, except that BC moves faster because it covers just a few more topics in the end... That is essentially it. Making a kid (who is already bored by easy precalc class) take 2 years of the same thing pretty much ensures they will hate math and possibly move away from math/STEM in college! Parents don't consider doing this, it is not a good idea for most kids.

Taking BC after AB is a terrible design because it's a big waste of time. It would only be logical for a small fraction of kids who are semi averse to math and need to go slower and have nothing to take after AB (e.g they somehow took stats, but aren't comfortable enough to jump into multivariable or any other advanced math class, so they make them take BC because well... they have to take a math course each year of high school).

Another myth stated above: One does not need 2 years of repetitive, computational high school calculus to succeed in a college engineering program. Almost all the math needed for engineering will be learned in college. So the sharp kids opt to take a faster version of calc (BC), and the ones who need to go slower take AB. Simple as that, and duplicating it is crazy overkill.

What percentage of MCPS students go directly into BC rather than AB? It seems like most advanced students at DS's school do AB first, than BC. I took BC myself as my only calculus course in high school and it was no problem, but if everyone else in DS's BC math class has had AB before, he's at a clear disadvantage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could sonmeone comment on how hard multi variable calculus is at Blair for a senior year class. My kid is not a math genius but finds Honors Precalc as a 10th grader quite easy. That seems to put her on a path for AP Calc BC junior year, right. If she doesn’t want to look like she’s phoning it in by taking AP Stats senior year, but maybe couldn’t hold her own against magnet kids, what’s a good path for her?

I would probably recommend AP Calc AB as a junior, AP Calc BC as a senior. She doesn't need to take multivariable calc unless she is definitely going to be an engineer or math major.

I actually recommend this even more IF they are going into a math major or engineer. Many kids find the Calc courses in college much more rigorous. Getting AB and then BC in two years really establishes a firm ground on Calculus. Multivariable isn't a weighted course either, at least in our school. Many kids go back to Calc 2 for college, not matter how much Calc they took in school. Jumping or bypassing Calc 3 in college is not recommended for STEM majors.

Completely disagree with this. Calc AB and BC are essentially the same material, except that BC moves faster because it covers just a few more topics in the end... That is essentially it. Making a kid (who is already bored by easy precalc class) take 2 years of the same thing pretty much ensures they will hate math and possibly move away from math/STEM in college! Parents don't consider doing this, it is not a good idea for most kids.

Taking BC after AB is a terrible design because it's a big waste of time. It would only be logical for a small fraction of kids who are semi averse to math and need to go slower and have nothing to take after AB (e.g they somehow took stats, but aren't comfortable enough to jump into multivariable or any other advanced math class, so they make them take BC because well... they have to take a math course each year of high school).

Another myth stated above: One does not need 2 years of repetitive, computational high school calculus to succeed in a college engineering program. Almost all the math needed for engineering will be learned in college. So the sharp kids opt to take a faster version of calc (BC), and the ones who need to go slower take AB. Simple as that, and duplicating it is crazy overkill.

What percentage of MCPS students go directly into BC rather than AB? It seems like most advanced students at DS's school do AB first, than BC. I took BC myself as my only calculus course in high school and it was no problem, but if everyone else in DS's BC math class has had AB before, he's at a clear disadvantage.

You're not thinking about it correctly. Your DS has an advantage in that he is motivated to do well in BC and obviously qualified to take it from Precalc, vs being placed in AB. A repeat of calculus for a second year in a row makes no sense for many of his other AB peers (again it may make sense for a few who didn't fully understand AB but did ok in it, and they don't want to take stats, or already took it, or they don't want to take advanced/multivariable).

I only took 1 calc class, BC in high school, as you did, way back when things made more sense. This 2 years of the same calc nonsense is a stupid waste of time idea that most kids shouldn't be exposed to. I again want to repeat how similar BC is to AB, it is like comparing a regular class to an honors version! Why would anyone want to take two years of the same class? If someone got an A or a B in calc AB, then great, they can move on. They don't need a full year of calc again since BC doesn't go any deeper than AB, it just covers a few more topics at the end. And even if they got a C or worse, then I'd argue they shouldn't take BC, they'd be much better off with stats (or repeating AB since they were not ready for it the first time around).

[Anonymous]

One more thing to add: You mentioned most advanced students do AB then BC. I don't think that is the case for students who are advanced, where by advanced we mean they are good at math. Those kids don't take 2 years to relearn the same subject, they typically in high school do Alg2, precalc, calc, and multivariable (or whatever a school has for classes beyond math their senior year).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One more thing to add: You mentioned most advanced students do AB then BC. I don't think that is the case for students who are advanced, where by advanced we mean they are good at math. Those kids don't take 2 years to relearn the same subject, they typically in high school do Alg2, precalc, calc, and multivariable (or whatever a school has for classes beyond math their senior year).

This just proves the whole HS math sequence is a joke

How many students actually skip Multi-Variable when in College answer almost none

In fact for math/engineering/science majors it is usually highly recommended to start with the first real Calculus I college class and not skip anything since almost all high school math course don't come close to actually being college-level

HS should be like it was for us for the top students

Geometry
Algebra II
Trig I guess that's what they call Pre Calc
Calculus AB

That's it period

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One more thing to add: You mentioned most advanced students do AB then BC. I don't think that is the case for students who are advanced, where by advanced we mean they are good at math. Those kids don't take 2 years to relearn the same subject, they typically in high school do Alg2, precalc, calc, and multivariable (or whatever a school has for classes beyond math their senior year).

This just proves the whole HS math sequence is a joke

How many students actually skip Multi-Variable when in College answer almost none

In fact for math/engineering/science majors it is usually highly recommended to start with the first real Calculus I college class and not skip anything since almost all high school math course don't come close to actually being college-level

HS should be like it was for us for the top students

Geometry
Algebra II
Trig I guess that's what they call Pre Calc
Calculus AB

That's it period

That is the standard MCPS pathway:

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One more thing to add: You mentioned most advanced students do AB then BC. I don't think that is the case for students who are advanced, where by advanced we mean they are good at math. Those kids don't take 2 years to relearn the same subject, they typically in high school do Alg2, precalc, calc, and multivariable (or whatever a school has for classes beyond math their senior year).

This just proves the whole HS math sequence is a joke

How many students actually skip Multi-Variable when in College answer almost none

In fact for math/engineering/science majors it is usually highly recommended to start with the first real Calculus I college class and not skip anything since almost all high school math course don't come close to actually being college-level

HS should be like it was for us for the top students

Geometry
Algebra II
Trig I guess that's what they call Pre Calc
Calculus AB

That's it period

That is the standard MCPS pathway:

Yup and I would argue that's more than fine for the vast vast majority

Maybe the advanced track for the top 1% not entire sections/classes

and again going to College almost everyone recommends starting with the first real Calculus courses for actual STEM majors

I would argue AP credit should only be used for non-STEM majors

[Anonymous]

So, what’s the senior kid who took Calculus BC junior year supposed to take to look good to colleges then? Personally, I don’t think the answer depends on whether you are a STEM kid. I don’t consider these things substitutes for college courses, it’s just basic knowledge and thinking skills.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, what’s the senior kid who took Calculus BC junior year supposed to take to look good to colleges then? Personally, I don’t think the answer depends on whether you are a STEM kid. I don’t consider these things substitutes for college courses, it’s just basic knowledge and thinking skills.

Wait, I hope you're not suggesting that taking calculus AB followed by another year of BC as a good idea because you think it will impress colleges? The only thing that will achieve is convince them the kid has no genuine interest in math and is being pushed by parents or school into doing something that doesn't make sense.

There are many options beyond BC, starting with what many high schools around here call multivariable calc (a combination of calculus followed by linear algebra). When I was in high school my calc BC class included some multivariable, and the subsequent course was one semester of differential equations followed by one of linear algebra.

Another option is to do independent study and/or take a class from the local college. I'm quite sure this is the popular choice for the kids who are really advanced and want more math but either already took AP stats, or do not wish to take it due to lack of interest and/or enough challenge level.

[Anonymous]

The answers I’ve gleaned about what to take after AP Calc BC junior year is 1) multi variable calculus, which my mathematician relative says is not the most useful advanced math class to take; 2)AP Stats with some saying AP Stats looks like a cop out; 3) some college class (which isn’t going to be a good option for us): 4) unnamed magnet electives at Blair (wish someone would say more about this). I guess that’s why so many kids take AP Stats.

[Anonymous]

I don't think AP Stats is a cop out for a kid that has already had Calc BC..only when taken instead of Calc BC. Data is such an important part of the world today. I think it is a great class to have for many different professions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think AP Stats is a cop out for a kid that has already had Calc BC..only when taken instead of Calc BC. Data is such an important part of the world today. I think it is a great class to have for many different professions.

The problem with AP Stats is it has a reputation as one of the easy APs and it also doesn't use much of the math students spent their MS/HS years developing. It's essentially a year long vacation from math. It would be harder to take calc if it's been a year since taking pre-calc. It's harder to take a college's math placement test if there wasn't a rigorous math class senior year of HS. Colleges know the students who are in AP Stats senior year are more likely to end up in remedial math if they're accepted. Colleges have all the data they need to know this is true. It may not be true for your DC, but how do you demonstrate that?

Yes, actually knowing stats is a skill that is extremely important going forward, but the AP stats class is a baby step in that direction. It's better taken as an elective.

[Anonymous]

Calc BC junior year kids often end up in remedial math in college? I would like to see that data..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, what’s the senior kid who took Calculus BC junior year supposed to take to look good to colleges then? Personally, I don’t think the answer depends on whether you are a STEM kid. I don’t consider these things substitutes for college courses, it’s just basic knowledge and thinking skills.

At that point, take multi.

The issue I have is this is getting pretty deep into what ought to be college material, and ideally should all be retaken later. Then, if it is retaken, will the student just breeze through saying I already know all this, or will they slow down and notice the subtle things that were left out or mis-stated in HS. The HS math teachers my kids have had are good, the one's I had were good, but there are things that just aren't taught well in HS. E.g., pet peeve, when to use a counter example. HS teachers tend to be bad at this. In college you won't find instructors who fumble around trying to prove a negative algebraically. HS teachers are good at computational calculus, but there's more to learn.