Is there really nothing "specialized" about the HB curriculum?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We put four kids all the way through APS, two at HB and two at their neighborhood high school. Our youngest graduated nearly a decade ago. Irate parents made the same arguments that you all are making now -- it's not fair, they need to expand, blah blah blah. Nothing ever changes. The fact is, all of our kids got good educations, went to good colleges, and turned out fine. I guarantee that, a decade from now, you are all going to laugh about how much time you wasted worrying about such trivial -- and, I have to say, snowflake -- stuff. Take a deep breath . . .

There will be over 3,000 kids at W-L. Much different now. The competition to get into a top State school from there —UVA, etc, incredibly hard with quotas by the iniversities and competition within. I heard kids have to do the IB program for top schools or they won’t even look at them. Many were completely stressed out by it.

See, you're just plain wrong and demonstrably so. According the SCHEV, when our youngest graduated from her Arlington high school nine years ago 43.4 percent of Arlington applicants to UVA and 42 percent of Arlington applicants to William and Mary were admitted. Average SAT scores of in state enrolled students were 1317 at UVA back then and 1324 at W&M.

Five years earlier than that, average SAT scores in state at UVA was 1315 and at W&M was 1331.

Last year 37.8 percent of Arlington applicants got into UVA and 53.6 percent of Arlington applicants got into W&M, with SATs in state averaging 1337 at UVA and 1329 at W&M.

The bottom line: SAT scores for in state students at W&M are actually lower now than they were 15 years ago, and at UVA they're only 20 points higher. And while the admissions rate for Arlington applicants has dropped over the years for UVA, it hasn't dropped for W&M. My hunch is that a big reason for the drop in admissions rate at UVA is because kids are applying to more schools than they did 10 or 15 years ago, and including more reach schools. The quality of admitted students hasn't changed very much though.

in the intervening years, UVA has become unbelievably sought after.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We put four kids all the way through APS, two at HB and two at their neighborhood high school. Our youngest graduated nearly a decade ago. Irate parents made the same arguments that you all are making now -- it's not fair, they need to expand, blah blah blah. Nothing ever changes. The fact is, all of our kids got good educations, went to good colleges, and turned out fine. I guarantee that, a decade from now, you are all going to laugh about how much time you wasted worrying about such trivial -- and, I have to say, snowflake -- stuff. Take a deep breath . . .

Weird post, seeing as how you’re judging others for wanting the same snowflake option—HB—you wanted years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We put four kids all the way through APS, two at HB and two at their neighborhood high school. Our youngest graduated nearly a decade ago. Irate parents made the same arguments that you all are making now -- it's not fair, they need to expand, blah blah blah. Nothing ever changes. The fact is, all of our kids got good educations, went to good colleges, and turned out fine. I guarantee that, a decade from now, you are all going to laugh about how much time you wasted worrying about such trivial -- and, I have to say, snowflake -- stuff. Take a deep breath . . .

Weird post, seeing as how you’re judging others for wanting the same snowflake option—HB—you wanted years ago.

+1 but keep judging others if it makes you feel better.

[Anonymous]

Can one of the people who insist that the county should close H-B explain how your child's life or education would be improved? You're not paying any more per student for them than any other kid and those kids would just need to flood back into overcrowded neighborhood schools. Aside from addressing the bile that seems to rise up in parents what good would it do to close it? (And it can't just be about the new building. Ass a PP noted people haVe been complaining about it for years and years.)

[Anonymous]

I went to HB and graduated less than 20 years ago.

There were a couple of outstanding teachers but 70 percent weren't that great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We put four kids all the way through APS, two at HB and two at their neighborhood high school. Our youngest graduated nearly a decade ago. Irate parents made the same arguments that you all are making now -- it's not fair, they need to expand, blah blah blah. Nothing ever changes. The fact is, all of our kids got good educations, went to good colleges, and turned out fine. I guarantee that, a decade from now, you are all going to laugh about how much time you wasted worrying about such trivial -- and, I have to say, snowflake -- stuff. Take a deep breath . . .

Weird post, seeing as how you’re judging others for wanting the same snowflake option—HB—you wanted years ago.

+1 but keep judging others if it makes you feel better.

You're missing my point. All I'm saying is that I had kids who applied to HB and didn't get in -- and they went on to the neighborhood high school and did just fine. I didn't demand that the county expand the program or build a second HB. HB is not a panacea, and Arlington's neighborhood schools are all first-rate. You're lucky to have such "problems."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We put four kids all the way through APS, two at HB and two at their neighborhood high school. Our youngest graduated nearly a decade ago. Irate parents made the same arguments that you all are making now -- it's not fair, they need to expand, blah blah blah. Nothing ever changes. The fact is, all of our kids got good educations, went to good colleges, and turned out fine. I guarantee that, a decade from now, you are all going to laugh about how much time you wasted worrying about such trivial -- and, I have to say, snowflake -- stuff. Take a deep breath . . .

There will be over 3,000 kids at W-L. Much different now. The competition to get into a top State school from there —UVA, etc, incredibly hard with quotas by the iniversities and competition within. I heard kids have to do the IB program for top schools or they won’t even look at them. Many were completely stressed out by it.

See, you're just plain wrong and demonstrably so. According the SCHEV, when our youngest graduated from her Arlington high school nine years ago 43.4 percent of Arlington applicants to UVA and 42 percent of Arlington applicants to William and Mary were admitted. Average SAT scores of in state enrolled students were 1317 at UVA back then and 1324 at W&M.

Five years earlier than that, average SAT scores in state at UVA was 1315 and at W&M was 1331.

Last year 37.8 percent of Arlington applicants got into UVA and 53.6 percent of Arlington applicants got into W&M, with SATs in state averaging 1337 at UVA and 1329 at W&M.

The bottom line: SAT scores for in state students at W&M are actually lower now than they were 15 years ago, and at UVA they're only 20 points higher. And while the admissions rate for Arlington applicants has dropped over the years for UVA, it hasn't dropped for W&M. My hunch is that a big reason for the drop in admissions rate at UVA is because kids are applying to more schools than they did 10 or 15 years ago, and including more reach schools. The quality of admitted students hasn't changed very much though.

in the intervening years, UVA has become unbelievably sought after.

Right -- by kids who wouldn't have gotten into UVA ten or fifteen years ago either. That's my point. The quality of the incoming classes aren't much better now than they were then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We put four kids all the way through APS, two at HB and two at their neighborhood high school. Our youngest graduated nearly a decade ago. Irate parents made the same arguments that you all are making now -- it's not fair, they need to expand, blah blah blah. Nothing ever changes. The fact is, all of our kids got good educations, went to good colleges, and turned out fine. I guarantee that, a decade from now, you are all going to laugh about how much time you wasted worrying about such trivial -- and, I have to say, snowflake -- stuff. Take a deep breath . . .

Can you share what the differences were at that time, between the schools re: curriculum etc? I get what you are saying, but would like to know since you had 4 kids go through, two at HB, if you could share if they felt there were differences, what those were, and which type of kids would benefit from HB (and why).

Well, since I haven't had kids in APS for nearly a decade I can't speak to what the curriculum at the schools are now. But when my kids were in the system (basically from the late 90s through 2010) both HB and the neighborhood schools offered essentially the same classes, including lots and lots of AP classses that kids were expected to take f they were aiming for top colleges. I can't remember how many AP classes each of my kids took, but I'd guess 7 to 10? Back then HB was usually number 1 on Jay Matthews' "Challenge List." While the typical HB student probably took more AP classes than at the neighborhood school, it wasn't because the neighborhood school didn't offer as many -- the student body had a higher percentage of less motivated/capable students. But unquestionably any student at a neighborhood high school had access to the very same curriculum that the students had at HB. I'm betting that's still the case today.

HB, in my opinion, was back then -- and probably is today -- a very good option for motivated, self-directed students who see themselves as outside the mainstream. It probably offers an easier and more accepting environment for these types of kids -- smart, but not necessarily fully self-confident (at least not yet) non-jock/non-cheerleader/artistic types -- than some kids falling into this category might experience at their neighborhood high school. But it's absolutely key that the student be both academic and self-motivated and that the parent be hands off, because HB gives a lot of leeway to its students and does not hold the parents' hands. You do not want to send a kid to HB simply because he or she is bright. If they're not self-motivated, forget it -- they'll likely be worse off than going to the neighborhood school because no one will coddle them and no one will give you a heads up when they're messing up. That's how the system works.

In our day, top graduates of HB were more interested in William & Mary than UVA, and many also looked at SLACs. Brown was the favorites among the Ivies. VCU was favored over VT. This is what might be expected given the type of student who elected to attend the school.

I would never in a million years send a kid to HB based solely on academics, because there's simply no question that the neighborhood offerings are just as good, the top students perform just as well, test scores are no different among the top students, and college placements are similar (although, as I said, college preferences are not). I'd only send a kid there if it made sense for them socially.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We put four kids all the way through APS, two at HB and two at their neighborhood high school. Our youngest graduated nearly a decade ago. Irate parents made the same arguments that you all are making now -- it's not fair, they need to expand, blah blah blah. Nothing ever changes. The fact is, all of our kids got good educations, went to good colleges, and turned out fine. I guarantee that, a decade from now, you are all going to laugh about how much time you wasted worrying about such trivial -- and, I have to say, snowflake -- stuff. Take a deep breath . . .

Weird post, seeing as how you’re judging others for wanting the same snowflake option—HB—you wanted years ago.

+1 but keep judging others if it makes you feel better.

You're missing my point. All I'm saying is that I had kids who applied to HB and didn't get in -- and they went on to the neighborhood high school and did just fine. I didn't demand that the county expand the program or build a second HB. HB is not a panacea, and Arlington's neighborhood schools are all first-rate. You're lucky to have such "problems."

Lady, they need at least one more HS just to hold the students who are currently in ES. The question is: do they build a second HB, because it's so popular (I don't care why it's popular, but it is and it could fill up), or do they build a 4th neighborhood HS with less than half the amenities of the other neighborhood HS? That's where we are. HB can grow along with enrollment, to assist the system with its capacity crisis, and to keep neighborhood kids from being forced to attend the one zoned HS that won't have a full offering of extracurricular amenities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We put four kids all the way through APS, two at HB and two at their neighborhood high school. Our youngest graduated nearly a decade ago. Irate parents made the same arguments that you all are making now -- it's not fair, they need to expand, blah blah blah. Nothing ever changes. The fact is, all of our kids got good educations, went to good colleges, and turned out fine. I guarantee that, a decade from now, you are all going to laugh about how much time you wasted worrying about such trivial -- and, I have to say, snowflake -- stuff. Take a deep breath . . .

Can you share what the differences were at that time, between the schools re: curriculum etc? I get what you are saying, but would like to know since you had 4 kids go through, two at HB, if you could share if they felt there were differences, what those were, and which type of kids would benefit from HB (and why).

Well, since I haven't had kids in APS for nearly a decade I can't speak to what the curriculum at the schools are now. But when my kids were in the system (basically from the late 90s through 2010) both HB and the neighborhood schools offered essentially the same classes, including lots and lots of AP classses that kids were expected to take f they were aiming for top colleges. I can't remember how many AP classes each of my kids took, but I'd guess 7 to 10? Back then HB was usually number 1 on Jay Matthews' "Challenge List." While the typical HB student probably took more AP classes than at the neighborhood school, it wasn't because the neighborhood school didn't offer as many -- the student body had a higher percentage of less motivated/capable students. But unquestionably any student at a neighborhood high school had access to the very same curriculum that the students had at HB. I'm betting that's still the case today.

HB, in my opinion, was back then -- and probably is today -- a very good option for motivated, self-directed students who see themselves as outside the mainstream. It probably offers an easier and more accepting environment for these types of kids -- smart, but not necessarily fully self-confident (at least not yet) non-jock/non-cheerleader/artistic types -- than some kids falling into this category might experience at their neighborhood high school. But it's absolutely key that the student be both academic and self-motivated and that the parent be hands off, because HB gives a lot of leeway to its students and does not hold the parents' hands. You do not want to send a kid to HB simply because he or she is bright. If they're not self-motivated, forget it -- they'll likely be worse off than going to the neighborhood school because no one will coddle them and no one will give you a heads up when they're messing up. That's how the system works.

In our day, top graduates of HB were more interested in William & Mary than UVA, and many also looked at SLACs. Brown was the favorites among the Ivies. VCU was favored over VT. This is what might be expected given the type of student who elected to attend the school.

I would never in a million years send a kid to HB based solely on academics, because there's simply no question that the neighborhood offerings are just as good, the top students perform just as well, test scores are no different among the top students, and college placements are similar (although, as I said, college preferences are not). I'd only send a kid there if it made sense for them socially.

Thanks so much

[Anonymous]

I don't understand the sour grapes about HB. Any kid in Arlington, in theory, can get in. Meanwhile, we have kids going to schools where 80 percent of the kids are on free lunch and kids where 2 percent of the kids are on free lunch. You know which kids I consider going to private schools at taxpayer expense? The ones whose parents can afford the premium on a house that gets them a free education in-bounds for a no-poverty school.

[Anonymous]

Here's the thing about choice programs-- we pay a lot of money to bus kids around for them. So we should be asking the purpose of every choice program and whether that busing cost is achieving whatever goal we set for the program. Immersion has a clear purpose-- teaching kids at a young age to speak two languages. Montessori has a clear purpose-- teaching an entirely different academic approach. Arlington Tech is giving kids access to specialized equipment that we can't replicate at the other high school buildings. What is the academic purpose of HB? Even from a diversity perspective, HB doesn't look much different from Yorktown. Every dollar we spend busing those kids is a dollar we could be spending somewhere else in the system.

Additionally, with HB, we're spending over $100M to build a facility that will house 800 kids. Meanwhile, APS has budgeted half that amount to build Reed and Fleet respectively, even though those elementary schools will hold almost just as many kids (Reed- 725 students and Fleet- 750 students). As PPs have stated, there is nothing unique about the academic program at HB-- so we're basically just building a smaller program that only a tiny fraction of kids will randomly be able to get into-- the HB admissions process isn't even targeting the students who could most benefit from being in a smaller school. Meanwhile, we can't build a 4th high school to house 1800 kids because most of our bond capacity has been eaten up by the HB construction. Almost everyone in the county with kids 6th grade and younger will be harmed by the School Board's stupid decision to devote so much bond capacity to the Wilson project without increasing the HB program to include additional seats. Our kids are the ones who will be hit by the hardest by the high school capacity mess.

The Wilson school construction is too far down the path to stop, but that doesn't mean you can't redesign the HB program to at least make it accessible to more kids. You could increase class size. You could rent nearby office space to create more classrooms. Additionally, for those of you who bothered to watch the CIP work sessions, the School Board said that with the opening of Stratford, they can still accommodate more middle school kids with trailers. In contrast, they are literally going to run out of space at the 3 existing high school sites even with trailers unless they create more high school seats somewhere. So take the middle school kids out of HB and make it high school only. This isn't about hating HB, it is about math. We need to create sufficient space for high school students or we're going to be resorting to shift schedules and on-line classes within 8 years. That's been explicitly stated by Murphy and the School Board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing about choice programs-- we pay a lot of money to bus kids around for them. So we should be asking the purpose of every choice program and whether that busing cost is achieving whatever goal we set for the program. Immersion has a clear purpose-- teaching kids at a young age to speak two languages. Montessori has a clear purpose-- teaching an entirely different academic approach. Arlington Tech is giving kids access to specialized equipment that we can't replicate at the other high school buildings. What is the academic purpose of HB? Even from a diversity perspective, HB doesn't look much different from Yorktown. Every dollar we spend busing those kids is a dollar we could be spending somewhere else in the system.

Additionally, with HB, we're spending over $100M to build a facility that will house 800 kids. Meanwhile, APS has budgeted half that amount to build Reed and Fleet respectively, even though those elementary schools will hold almost just as many kids (Reed- 725 students and Fleet- 750 students). As PPs have stated, there is nothing unique about the academic program at HB-- so we're basically just building a smaller program that only a tiny fraction of kids will randomly be able to get into-- the HB admissions process isn't even targeting the students who could most benefit from being in a smaller school. Meanwhile, we can't build a 4th high school to house 1800 kids because most of our bond capacity has been eaten up by the HB construction. Almost everyone in the county with kids 6th grade and younger will be harmed by the School Board's stupid decision to devote so much bond capacity to the Wilson project without increasing the HB program to include additional seats. Our kids are the ones who will be hit by the hardest by the high school capacity mess.

The Wilson school construction is too far down the path to stop, but that doesn't mean you can't redesign the HB program to at least make it accessible to more kids. You could increase class size. You could rent nearby office space to create more classrooms. Additionally, for those of you who bothered to watch the CIP work sessions, the School Board said that with the opening of Stratford, they can still accommodate more middle school kids with trailers. In contrast, they are literally going to run out of space at the 3 existing high school sites even with trailers unless they create more high school seats somewhere. So take the middle school kids out of HB and make it high school only. This isn't about hating HB, it is about math. We need to create sufficient space for high school students or we're going to be resorting to shift schedules and on-line classes within 8 years. That's been explicitly stated by Murphy and the School Board.

The admissions process includes the element of choice--there is a program design, and (by the time your kid is in fifth grade) deciding if the HB approach is appropriate for your kid. BTW, many kids start out there and then switch back to their home school because they decide it is not the right fit. The lottery aspect is because more kids want to try it then there are seats, but its the parents and kids who have to decide if the approach is better for them than the model of the comprehensive schools. There are tradeoffs and differences--it's not accurate to say "there is nothing unique about the academic program." Having the same TA for all of high school is unique. Not having any team sports other than ultimate at your high school is unique.

Secondly, they did increase the size of HB already and it will increase more when they move to Wilson. Stop saying they didn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing about choice programs-- we pay a lot of money to bus kids around for them. So we should be asking the purpose of every choice program and whether that busing cost is achieving whatever goal we set for the program. Immersion has a clear purpose-- teaching kids at a young age to speak two languages. Montessori has a clear purpose-- teaching an entirely different academic approach. Arlington Tech is giving kids access to specialized equipment that we can't replicate at the other high school buildings. What is the academic purpose of HB? Even from a diversity perspective, HB doesn't look much different from Yorktown. Every dollar we spend busing those kids is a dollar we could be spending somewhere else in the system.

Additionally, with HB, we're spending over $100M to build a facility that will house 800 kids. Meanwhile, APS has budgeted half that amount to build Reed and Fleet respectively, even though those elementary schools will hold almost just as many kids (Reed- 725 students and Fleet- 750 students). As PPs have stated, there is nothing unique about the academic program at HB-- so we're basically just building a smaller program that only a tiny fraction of kids will randomly be able to get into-- the HB admissions process isn't even targeting the students who could most benefit from being in a smaller school. Meanwhile, we can't build a 4th high school to house 1800 kids because most of our bond capacity has been eaten up by the HB construction. Almost everyone in the county with kids 6th grade and younger will be harmed by the School Board's stupid decision to devote so much bond capacity to the Wilson project without increasing the HB program to include additional seats. Our kids are the ones who will be hit by the hardest by the high school capacity mess.

The Wilson school construction is too far down the path to stop, but that doesn't mean you can't redesign the HB program to at least make it accessible to more kids. You could increase class size. You could rent nearby office space to create more classrooms. Additionally, for those of you who bothered to watch the CIP work sessions, the School Board said that with the opening of Stratford, they can still accommodate more middle school kids with trailers. In contrast, they are literally going to run out of space at the 3 existing high school sites even with trailers unless they create more high school seats somewhere. So take the middle school kids out of HB and make it high school only. This isn't about hating HB, it is about math. We need to create sufficient space for high school students or we're going to be resorting to shift schedules and on-line classes within 8 years. That's been explicitly stated by Murphy and the School Board.

The admissions process includes the element of choice--there is a program design, and (by the time your kid is in fifth grade) deciding if the HB approach is appropriate for your kid. BTW, many kids start out there and then switch back to their home school because they decide it is not the right fit. The lottery aspect is because more kids want to try it then there are seats, but its the parents and kids who have to decide if the approach is better for them than the model of the comprehensive schools. There are tradeoffs and differences--it's not accurate to say "there is nothing unique about the academic program." Having the same TA for all of high school is unique. Not having any team sports other than ultimate at your high school is unique.

Secondly, they did increase the size of HB already and it will increase more when they move to Wilson. Stop saying they didn't.

Sorry, deciding if the HB approach is appropriate for your kid is part of the admissions process--you have to actively apply. The school doesn't decide who is qualified to go there, the families do. The school just allocates the available slots randomly from those who have self-selected for admission.

[Anonymous]

HB is not meaningfully increasing class size. Fall 2018: HB will have 249 MS and 440 HS students. Fall 2026: HB will have 279 MS and 440 HS students. HB is adding 10 kids to each MS class-- 30 kids total. That's it.

Meanwhile by 2026: WF will have 3,294 HS students, WJ will have 2,101 students, and YT will have 2,642 students-- that's 8,000 high school kids, in three existing high school buildings that are only built to hold 6,500 total. These are the APS projections posted to the APS website, not made up numbers.

You have to be completely clueless to not understand why there are so many elementary school parents who are pissed off about the decision to spend $100M in bond funding to build HB without meaningfully adding more capacity. The current CIP conversations right now are a complete disaster. They have no viable solution to create sufficient high school seats by 2026 with the available bond funding.