Does religion = ethnicity?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:First off, the use of Ashkenazi/sephardi/mizrahi as ethnic descriptors is only one usage within the Jewish world. An older usage refers to halacha (Jewish law) Observant Ashkenazi Jews follow ritual traditions going back to medieval Germany and northern France, sephardim to those from the yeshivas of medieval Spain. In this sense most "mizrahi" jews are actually sephardim (though Yemenites have their own independent traditions) even if their families never spoke Ladino.

Secondly, at least in the US, Ashkenazi is almost never used by itself as independent descriptor. It would always be "ashkenazi Jew" or "Sephardi Jew" etc, unless context made it very clear that it was only ethnic Jews being referred to. Ashkenazi is sometimes use to refer to Israelis by antizionists trying to claim that Israelis are interlopers to the region (despite Mizrahi Jews making up about 40% of the Jewish population there)

There is one poster here who seems to think "Ashkenazi" is a term for Jews of eastern european descent who have become Christians. I have never heard it used that way outside DCUM. People who are not part of the Jewish community don't really follow "ashkenazi customs" (saying Kaddish on yom tov, avoiding legumes on Passover, etc). I mean you are a christian who kugel cause your mom made it? Great, but calling yourself "Ashkenazi" just makes you sound silly.

For the 100th time, genetic counsels will ask you if you have Ashkenazi descent for testing purposes. They don’t care if you’ve converted to Christianity, you’d still be of Ashkenazi (option to include the word Jewish!) descent. It can be understand as an ethnic indicator only.

[Anonymous]

^^^ genetic counselors

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First off, the use of Ashkenazi/sephardi/mizrahi as ethnic descriptors is only one usage within the Jewish world. An older usage refers to halacha (Jewish law) Observant Ashkenazi Jews follow ritual traditions going back to medieval Germany and northern France, sephardim to those from the yeshivas of medieval Spain. In this sense most "mizrahi" jews are actually sephardim (though Yemenites have their own independent traditions) even if their families never spoke Ladino.

Secondly, at least in the US, Ashkenazi is almost never used by itself as independent descriptor. It would always be "ashkenazi Jew" or "Sephardi Jew" etc, unless context made it very clear that it was only ethnic Jews being referred to. Ashkenazi is sometimes use to refer to Israelis by antizionists trying to claim that Israelis are interlopers to the region (despite Mizrahi Jews making up about 40% of the Jewish population there)

There is one poster here who seems to think "Ashkenazi" is a term for Jews of eastern european descent who have become Christians. I have never heard it used that way outside DCUM. People who are not part of the Jewish community don't really follow "ashkenazi customs" (saying Kaddish on yom tov, avoiding legumes on Passover, etc). I mean you are a christian who kugel cause your mom made it? Great, but calling yourself "Ashkenazi" just makes you sound silly.

For the 100th time, genetic counsels will ask you if you have Ashkenazi descent for testing purposes. They don’t care if you’ve converted to Christianity, you’d still be of Ashkenazi (option to include the word Jewish!) descent. It can be understand as an ethnic indicator only.

Genetic counselors just say "Ashkenazi" and not "Ashkenazi Jewish"? Well, I'll be. this convinces me that genetic counselors don't know much about Jewish cultural identity in the modern US, or terms for it. Not that they need to though, they mainly want to know if you are descended from the 50,000 or so people who settled Jewish Eastern Europe creating a nasty genetic bottleneck. I guess to me "ethnic" means culture, personal identity, not "race". Note if you are ashkenazi genetic descent, you are likely about 35 to 40% southern French/NorthItalian/Sardinian/Corsican, you can also call your ethnic identity one of those, if you like. Mamma mia!

[Anonymous]

PP -- whether you think it or not, Ashkenazi Jewish (and genetic testing tends to use that full term -- at least it did when my husband and I did genetic testing when I was pregnant) is an ethnicity.

We both had to have the "Ashkenazi Jew panel" done to test for diseases that tend to cluster in that ethnicity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First off, the use of Ashkenazi/sephardi/mizrahi as ethnic descriptors is only one usage within the Jewish world. An older usage refers to halacha (Jewish law) Observant Ashkenazi Jews follow ritual traditions going back to medieval Germany and northern France, sephardim to those from the yeshivas of medieval Spain. In this sense most "mizrahi" jews are actually sephardim (though Yemenites have their own independent traditions) even if their families never spoke Ladino.

Secondly, at least in the US, Ashkenazi is almost never used by itself as independent descriptor. It would always be "ashkenazi Jew" or "Sephardi Jew" etc, unless context made it very clear that it was only ethnic Jews being referred to. Ashkenazi is sometimes use to refer to Israelis by antizionists trying to claim that Israelis are interlopers to the region (despite Mizrahi Jews making up about 40% of the Jewish population there)

There is one poster here who seems to think "Ashkenazi" is a term for Jews of eastern european descent who have become Christians. I have never heard it used that way outside DCUM. People who are not part of the Jewish community don't really follow "ashkenazi customs" (saying Kaddish on yom tov, avoiding legumes on Passover, etc). I mean you are a christian who kugel cause your mom made it? Great, but calling yourself "Ashkenazi" just makes you sound silly.

For the 100th time, genetic counsels will ask you if you have Ashkenazi descent for testing purposes. They don’t care if you’ve converted to Christianity, you’d still be of Ashkenazi (option to include the word Jewish!) descent. It can be understand as an ethnic indicator only.

Of course this because this makes perfect sense.

Ashkenazi, like Mizrahi, Sephardi, etc, denotes the ethnic origins. Nothing more needs to be actually said. It makes no sense to continue including the Jewish label because that is the religion. If they aren't that religion, they don't need to be called Jewish.

Yes, these different groups can be traced back to regions, but the regions make up multiple countries and it's often not known which country they exactly originated from. So the terms help with understanding the regions from which they came from-- which is their ethnic make up. These names do not have to end with "Jewish". Yes, you can say you are generically Jewish to express your ethnicity but this is more exact.

At one point in history it may have made sense but history evolves and language must evolve with it. We're not all living like we did 3000 years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First off, the use of Ashkenazi/sephardi/mizrahi as ethnic descriptors is only one usage within the Jewish world. An older usage refers to halacha (Jewish law) Observant Ashkenazi Jews follow ritual traditions going back to medieval Germany and northern France, sephardim to those from the yeshivas of medieval Spain. In this sense most "mizrahi" jews are actually sephardim (though Yemenites have their own independent traditions) even if their families never spoke Ladino.

Secondly, at least in the US, Ashkenazi is almost never used by itself as independent descriptor. It would always be "ashkenazi Jew" or "Sephardi Jew" etc, unless context made it very clear that it was only ethnic Jews being referred to. Ashkenazi is sometimes use to refer to Israelis by antizionists trying to claim that Israelis are interlopers to the region (despite Mizrahi Jews making up about 40% of the Jewish population there)

There is one poster here who seems to think "Ashkenazi" is a term for Jews of eastern european descent who have become Christians. I have never heard it used that way outside DCUM. People who are not part of the Jewish community don't really follow "ashkenazi customs" (saying Kaddish on yom tov, avoiding legumes on Passover, etc). I mean you are a christian who kugel cause your mom made it? Great, but calling yourself "Ashkenazi" just makes you sound silly.

For the 100th time, genetic counsels will ask you if you have Ashkenazi descent for testing purposes. They don’t care if you’ve converted to Christianity, you’d still be of Ashkenazi (option to include the word Jewish!) descent. It can be understand as an ethnic indicator only.

Of course this because this makes perfect sense.

Ashkenazi, like Mizrahi, Sephardi, etc, denotes the ethnic origins. Nothing more needs to be actually said. It makes no sense to continue including the Jewish label because that is the religion. If they aren't that religion, they don't need to be called Jewish.

Yes, these different groups can be traced back to regions, but the regions make up multiple countries and it's often not known which country they exactly originated from. So the terms help with understanding the regions from which they came from-- which is their ethnic make up. These names do not have to end with "Jewish". Yes, you can say you are generically Jewish to express your ethnicity but this is more exact.

At one point in history it may have made sense but history evolves and language must evolve with it. We're not all living like we did 3000 years ago.

Sure, absolutely. Though, FWIW, this is the answer I received on this question from a Reform Rabbi:

You can be Jewish in at least 2 ways --
1. You have the ethnic background (Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Sephardi, etc). If you have this, you're ethnically Jewish, whether you practice or not.
2. You have converted to Judaism. This makes you religiously Jewish, even if you aren't ethnically so.

[Anonymous]

Ask the Irish ...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ask the Irish ...

Indeed. And there are more ethnoreligious groups as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group#Examples

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First off, the use of Ashkenazi/sephardi/mizrahi as ethnic descriptors is only one usage within the Jewish world. An older usage refers to halacha (Jewish law) Observant Ashkenazi Jews follow ritual traditions going back to medieval Germany and northern France, sephardim to those from the yeshivas of medieval Spain. In this sense most "mizrahi" jews are actually sephardim (though Yemenites have their own independent traditions) even if their families never spoke Ladino.

Secondly, at least in the US, Ashkenazi is almost never used by itself as independent descriptor. It would always be "ashkenazi Jew" or "Sephardi Jew" etc, unless context made it very clear that it was only ethnic Jews being referred to. Ashkenazi is sometimes use to refer to Israelis by antizionists trying to claim that Israelis are interlopers to the region (despite Mizrahi Jews making up about 40% of the Jewish population there)

There is one poster here who seems to think "Ashkenazi" is a term for Jews of eastern european descent who have become Christians. I have never heard it used that way outside DCUM. People who are not part of the Jewish community don't really follow "ashkenazi customs" (saying Kaddish on yom tov, avoiding legumes on Passover, etc). I mean you are a christian who kugel cause your mom made it? Great, but calling yourself "Ashkenazi" just makes you sound silly.

For the 100th time, genetic counsels will ask you if you have Ashkenazi descent for testing purposes. They don’t care if you’ve converted to Christianity, you’d still be of Ashkenazi (option to include the word Jewish!) descent. It can be understand as an ethnic indicator only.

Of course this because this makes perfect sense.

Ashkenazi, like Mizrahi, Sephardi, etc, denotes the ethnic origins. Nothing more needs to be actually said. It makes no sense to continue including the Jewish label because that is the religion. If they aren't that religion, they don't need to be called Jewish.

Yes, these different groups can be traced back to regions, but the regions make up multiple countries and it's often not known which country they exactly originated from. So the terms help with understanding the regions from which they came from-- which is their ethnic make up. These names do not have to end with "Jewish". Yes, you can say you are generically Jewish to express your ethnicity but this is more exact.

At one point in history it may have made sense but history evolves and language must evolve with it. We're not all living like we did 3000 years ago.

Language evolves - in use, not because you happen to prefer it that way. "Jewish" meant more than a "religion" in 2000 years ago when Jewish law was established - and one hundred and 20 years ago when the Jewish national movement was established - and now, when people refer to themselves as cultural Jews or secular Jews or humanist Jews. Not Humanist Ashkenazi or secular sephardi.

And your usage doesn't work terribly well in Israel where so many Jews both religious and secular are part Ashkenazi and part Mizrahi - it flies against that consolidation intermixing which is historical importance to the Jewish people. (its less common in the US, where there are fewer mizrahim, but its still not a trivial concern).

Basically secular Jews who are in some way engaged with and living Jewish culture - here or in Israel - call themselves Jews, and deny (as do most religious Jews) that jewishness is only a religion, as opposed to a fuller culture, a civilization even.

Ashkenazi seems to be used by people whose main concern is with genetics. Though I think not all of them, by any means.

No one NEEDS to be called anything (other than late for dinner). But the term used by Jews and non Jews, for a person of Jewish culture and identity who happens to not be religious is "Jew"

[Anonymous]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_as_a_Civilization

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ashkenazi is a subgroup of Jews. There are no Ashkenazi non-Jews. There are Jews who are not Ashkenazi.

Not all Arabs are Muslim. Not all Muslims are Arab.

What? There are plenty of Ashkenazi Jews who do not practice Judaism. And their families, for generations, did not.

Yes, and most people call them ethnic Jews, Jews by origin, or even "cultural Jews" (though often they have no ties to secular Jewish culture) . Few bother to distinguish them from sephardic or mizrahi Jews, unless you are messing around with some ancestry service, or worrying about grandma's kugel recipe.

And I would suggest that outside Israel, there are few Jews whose familes have not practiced Judaism for generations. In the diaspora such families typically intermarry multiple times over the generations and lose any ties to Jewish identity of any kind. It becomes "oh your great grandma was Jewish, that's cute"

l

Not true. DNA testing has come up with a lot significant Ashkenazi lineage. Many of these people really don't even know many Jews, have no connection to Judaism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ashkenazi is a subgroup of Jews. There are no Ashkenazi non-Jews. There are Jews who are not Ashkenazi.

Not all Arabs are Muslim. Not all Muslims are Arab.

What? There are plenty of Ashkenazi Jews who do not practice Judaism. And their families, for generations, did not.

Yes, and most people call them ethnic Jews, Jews by origin, or even "cultural Jews" (though often they have no ties to secular Jewish culture) . Few bother to distinguish them from sephardic or mizrahi Jews, unless you are messing around with some ancestry service, or worrying about grandma's kugel recipe.

And I would suggest that outside Israel, there are few Jews whose familes have not practiced Judaism for generations. In the diaspora such families typically intermarry multiple times over the generations and lose any ties to Jewish identity of any kind. It becomes "oh your great grandma was Jewish, that's cute"

l

Not true. DNA testing has come up with a lot significant Ashkenazi lineage. Many of these people really don't even know many Jews, have no connection to Judaism.

What percentage Jewish origin would they have? If no one was a practicing Jew for generations, why would they have been in-marrying? You mean there are a lot of people with one Jewish great great grandparent whose families have not practiced Judaism for generations, sure. But those people are not Jews nor are they "ashkenazi" . They are gentiles with one Jewish great grand parent.

[Anonymous]

BTW, before you decide your identity based on DNA test, instead of the real, living, organic customs and practices of your parents and grandparents, you should know :

http://www.medicaldaily.com/dna-ancestry-tests-are-meaningless-your-historical-genealogy-search-244586

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First off, the use of Ashkenazi/sephardi/mizrahi as ethnic descriptors is only one usage within the Jewish world. An older usage refers to halacha (Jewish law) Observant Ashkenazi Jews follow ritual traditions going back to medieval Germany and northern France, sephardim to those from the yeshivas of medieval Spain. In this sense most "mizrahi" jews are actually sephardim (though Yemenites have their own independent traditions) even if their families never spoke Ladino.

Secondly, at least in the US, Ashkenazi is almost never used by itself as independent descriptor. It would always be "ashkenazi Jew" or "Sephardi Jew" etc, unless context made it very clear that it was only ethnic Jews being referred to. Ashkenazi is sometimes use to refer to Israelis by antizionists trying to claim that Israelis are interlopers to the region (despite Mizrahi Jews making up about 40% of the Jewish population there)

There is one poster here who seems to think "Ashkenazi" is a term for Jews of eastern european descent who have become Christians. I have never heard it used that way outside DCUM. People who are not part of the Jewish community don't really follow "ashkenazi customs" (saying Kaddish on yom tov, avoiding legumes on Passover, etc). I mean you are a christian who kugel cause your mom made it? Great, but calling yourself "Ashkenazi" just makes you sound silly.

For the 100th time, genetic counsels will ask you if you have Ashkenazi descent for testing purposes. They don’t care if you’ve converted to Christianity, you’d still be of Ashkenazi (option to include the word Jewish!) descent. It can be understand as an ethnic indicator only.

Of course this because this makes perfect sense.

Ashkenazi, like Mizrahi, Sephardi, etc, denotes the ethnic origins. Nothing more needs to be actually said. It makes no sense to continue including the Jewish label because that is the religion. If they aren't that religion, they don't need to be called Jewish.

Yes, these different groups can be traced back to regions, but the regions make up multiple countries and it's often not known which country they exactly originated from. So the terms help with understanding the regions from which they came from-- which is their ethnic make up. These names do not have to end with "Jewish". Yes, you can say you are generically Jewish to express your ethnicity but this is more exact.

At one point in history it may have made sense but history evolves and language must evolve with it. We're not all living like we did 3000 years ago.

Language evolves - in use, not because you happen to prefer it that way. "Jewish" meant more than a "religion" in 2000 years ago when Jewish law was established - and one hundred and 20 years ago when the Jewish national movement was established - and now, when people refer to themselves as cultural Jews or secular Jews or humanist Jews. Not Humanist Ashkenazi or secular sephardi.

And your usage doesn't work terribly well in Israel where so many Jews both religious and secular are part Ashkenazi and part Mizrahi - it flies against that consolidation intermixing which is historical importance to the Jewish people. (its less common in the US, where there are fewer mizrahim, but its still not a trivial concern).

Basically secular Jews who are in some way engaged with and living Jewish culture - here or in Israel - call themselves Jews, and deny (as do most religious Jews) that jewishness is only a religion, as opposed to a fuller culture, a civilization even.

Ashkenazi seems to be used by people whose main concern is with genetics. Though I think not all of them, by any means.

No one NEEDS to be called anything (other than late for dinner). But the term used by Jews and non Jews, for a person of Jewish culture and identity who happens to not be religious is "Jew"

We can agree to disagree. I think you're more invested in the person keeping their term 'Jewish' as some sort of need for constant reminder.

The Jewish diaspora was so widespread- Middle East, North Africa and other parts of Africa, Europe, South Asia, Central Asia, even China. Saying that someone's ethnicity is generically "Jewish" is pretty incorrect.

A converted Ashkenazi or a converted Beta Israelite are no longer Jewish. If a Tamil Thattar Jew of Sri Lanka converted to Christianity, would you still call them Tamil Thattar Jewish? Would that still be considered their ethnicity? Or would they just a be a Tamil Thattar Christian?

[Anonymous]

I think what you are missing is that Jewish denotes religion and ethnicity is English. In other languages, the term for a Jewish ethnicity and religion is a different word, like Herbrew for ethnicity and Jewish for religion. English is just limited in that regard.