This American Life tackles Desegregation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought this report was striking but super short on any practical solutions to a problem that has vexed our public school system for decades.

I thought the report was pretty clear that integration was a practical solution to the problem. That is, in fact, the entire point of the podcast. Someplace like DC, which is hyper-segregated but geographically compact, would be a perfect opportunity for reintegration of public schools.

You CLEARLY don't live someplace that requires integration or then don't have students who would be effective. "Integration" is not an answer. It's the only the beginning. HOW to integrate successfully is the question. It's been tried
many times in many ways in many places and yet, here we are still listening to radio programs lamenting the problem and simpletons responding with your response. It's a sticky, difficult problem that involves housing patterns, income disparity and yes, deep cultural and sociological divisions. It's not easy. Bussing doesn't work, magnet schools maybe a little, voluntary desegregation maybe a little, but what can you propose that would help on a large scale?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought this report was striking but super short on any practical solutions to a problem that has vexed our public school system for decades.

I thought the report was pretty clear that integration was a practical solution to the problem. That is, in fact, the entire point of the podcast. Someplace like DC, which is hyper-segregated but geographically compact, would be a perfect opportunity for reintegration of public schools.

Also--there are so few white students in geographically compact Washington who use public schools that integration couldn't actually "be successful" here. You would need to combine DC schools with neighboring Virginia and Maryland districts and integrate from there. How would Bethesda like that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought this report was striking but super short on any practical solutions to a problem that has vexed our public school system for decades.

I thought the report was pretty clear that integration was a practical solution to the problem. That is, in fact, the entire point of the podcast. Someplace like DC, which is hyper-segregated but geographically compact, would be a perfect opportunity for reintegration of public schools.

Also--there are so few white students in geographically compact Washington who use public schools that integration couldn't actually "be successful" here. You would need to combine DC schools with neighboring Virginia and Maryland districts and integrate from there. How would Bethesda like that?

This is exactly right, and hits the larger issues, which is that pretty much our entire political system is set up to encourage segregation by the most well off. The American tradition of "local funding" and "local control" is used to perpetuate inequality in multiple ways- through zoning that requires too much land for poorer people to afford to live in rich areas, separate school districts, etc. We live as a part of that system here in DC, but it is much bigger than just this city.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought this report was striking but super short on any practical solutions to a problem that has vexed our public school system for decades.

I thought the report was pretty clear that integration was a practical solution to the problem. That is, in fact, the entire point of the podcast. Someplace like DC, which is hyper-segregated but geographically compact, would be a perfect opportunity for reintegration of public schools.

You CLEARLY don't live someplace that requires integration or then don't have students who would be effective. "Integration" is not an answer. It's the only the beginning. HOW to integrate successfully is the question. It's been tried
many times in many ways in many places and yet, here we are still listening to radio programs lamenting the problem and simpletons responding with your response. It's a sticky, difficult problem that involves housing patterns, income disparity and yes, deep cultural and sociological divisions. It's not easy. Bussing doesn't work, magnet schools maybe a little, voluntary desegregation maybe a little, but what can you propose that would help on a large scale?

Part of what I took away from the TAL series was that bussing does work. It gets minority kids into white, high performing schools. The receiving schools aren't negatively impacted because they still have a majority of high SES families. Although the long bus ride is unpleasant for the bussed kids, it's better than the alternative. Of course, it would be better if all middle-to-upper class neighborhoods included more affordable housing so that a diverse bunch of kids (economically diverse, at least) would go to the nearby school. If affordable housing was evenly distributed around the country, we wouldn't have neighborhoods of concentrated poverty and schools that are overwhelmed by kids with high needs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought this report was striking but super short on any practical solutions to a problem that has vexed our public school system for decades.

I thought the report was pretty clear that integration was a practical solution to the problem. That is, in fact, the entire point of the podcast. Someplace like DC, which is hyper-segregated but geographically compact, would be a perfect opportunity for reintegration of public schools.

You CLEARLY don't live someplace that requires integration or then don't have students who would be effective. "Integration" is not an answer. It's the only the beginning. HOW to integrate successfully is the question. It's been tried
many times in many ways in many places and yet, here we are still listening to radio programs lamenting the problem and simpletons responding with your response. It's a sticky, difficult problem that involves housing patterns, income disparity and yes, deep cultural and sociological divisions. It's not easy. Bussing doesn't work, magnet schools maybe a little, voluntary desegregation maybe a little, but what can you propose that would help on a large scale?

Integration, including busing, DID WORK, if you measure by student performance outcomes. It did not work politically, where certain white voters just flat out didn't want black kids in classes with their children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Integration, including busing, DID WORK, if you measure by student performance outcomes. It did not work politically, where certain white voters just flat out didn't want black kids in classes with their children.

This exactly.

[Anonymous]

It DID NOT work because it worked for too few of the people impacted. It has to be done in a measured way so the costs (or even the perception of costs) is sufficiently minimized. As was said above...

Anonymous wrote:The problem in DC is that successful integration will require a lot of time. Right now, the need for a better school placement dwarfs the capacity of the quality schools. The number of good schools is slowly spreading, with charters being a part of that, so DC is on the right track.

The 10% OOB set-aside should prove to be effective policy for the kids who get to take advantage of it. But at that rate, it will still be years and years before most students in lame schools get to escape for a good one. (It doesn't help that most of the high-quality schools where the benefit would be large are already way overcrowded.)

We've already seen what happens if you force rapid integration by quickly bringing in large numbers of new students into the more successful schools: the disruption is high and many of the preexisting families just leave. The high disruption can turn a successful school into an unsuccessful one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought this report was striking but super short on any practical solutions to a problem that has vexed our public school system for decades.

I thought the report was pretty clear that integration was a practical solution to the problem. That is, in fact, the entire point of the podcast. Someplace like DC, which is hyper-segregated but geographically compact, would be a perfect opportunity for reintegration of public schools.

You CLEARLY don't live someplace that requires integration or then don't have students who would be effective. "Integration" is not an answer. It's the only the beginning. HOW to integrate successfully is the question. It's been tried
many times in many ways in many places and yet, here we are still listening to radio programs lamenting the problem and simpletons responding with your response. It's a sticky, difficult problem that involves housing patterns, income disparity and yes, deep cultural and sociological divisions. It's not easy. Bussing doesn't work, magnet schools maybe a little, voluntary desegregation maybe a little, but what can you propose that would help on a large scale?

Integration, including busing, DID WORK, if you measure by student performance outcomes. It did not work politically, where certain white voters just flat out didn't want black kids in classes with their children.

Exactly. The reason why some integration-focused education people like "specialty charters" is because it is a bit of an end run around the political issues of busing, a different way to try and foster integration. Create open enrollment schools that middle class parents will be interested in so you get a portion of that population. Open enrollment without any hurdles, so poor families can easily get into schools that might not be in their poor neighborhoods- remember that they are locked out of the traditional public schools in rich neighborhoods because of boundary zones. It's a recipe for more integration than seen since the days of busing. Not perfect by any means, but one way of achieving it. But it's tough to imagine it working on a bigger scale in suburban areas (in which most of the country lives, remember) because the distances between rich/poor suburbs would make shared schools logistically difficult.

http://hechingerreport.org/schools-that-teach-in-two-languages-foster-integration-so-how-come-so-many-families-cant-find-programs/

[Anonymous]

De-segregation would work even better if we require mixed-race tables in the school lunchrooms. That would teach the students the correct mind-set from the very beginning. Over time, general social desegregation would become a matter of learned behavior, rather than a product of government-mandated busing.

[Anonymous]

I am listening to this episode again. I don't think that school integration is the first step of integration in DC. I think that the trend of upper middle class white families buying homes in historically black neighborhoods is a good start, provided that those families a) stay in the neighborhood and b) send their children to the local schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am listening to this episode again. I don't think that school integration is the first step of integration in DC. I think that the trend of upper middle class white families buying homes in historically black neighborhoods is a good start, provided that those families a) stay in the neighborhood and b) send their children to the local schools.

That hasn't happened in the past 15 years and seems very unlikely for the next 15.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:De-segregation would work even better if we require mixed-race tables in the school lunchrooms. That would teach the students the correct mind-set from the very beginning. Over time, general social desegregation would become a matter of learned behavior, rather than a product of government-mandated busing.

The schools could do that. Outside of lunch, though, would parents support this in any way?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am listening to this episode again. I don't think that school integration is the first step of integration in DC. I think that the trend of upper middle class white families buying homes in historically black neighborhoods is a good start, provided that those families a) stay in the neighborhood and b) send their children to the local schools.

That hasn't happened in the past 15 years and seems very unlikely for the next 15.

That doesn't mean that it would not help to resolve the problem. The problem is just a lot bigger than schools in DC. You're never going to get integration city-wide because the city is not integrated. You might find a handful of white parents who are willing to commit to neighborhood schools in neighborhoods that are diverse (where diverse = a mixture of ethnicities and income levels). You will almost certainly find zero white parents who are willing to move to or send their children to school in Wards 7 and 8. Those parts of the city are even less diverse than Ward 3 (I know, I know, y'all have plenty of students of color - they're just wealthy).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am listening to this episode again. I don't think that school integration is the first step of integration in DC. I think that the trend of upper middle class white families buying homes in historically black neighborhoods is a good start, provided that those families a) stay in the neighborhood and b) send their children to the local schools.

That hasn't happened in the past 15 years and seems very unlikely for the next 15.[/quote

I think it seems to be happening more frequently now than it did even a few years ago thanks to the fact that HRCS are more difficult to access than ever. Lots of DCPS now have IB waitlists. I think if DC stopped allowing new charter schools to open, we might see more integration. Charters have been great for the city's school system, however IMO the goal should ultimately be to phase them out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:De-segregation would work even better if we require mixed-race tables in the school lunchrooms. That would teach the students the correct mind-set from the very beginning. Over time, general social desegregation would become a matter of learned behavior, rather than a product of government-mandated busing.

I would never ever send my child white or black to a school that required such social engineering. Encouraging it or making it part of some lunchroom rotation of seating fine but if you start counting races at tables and making kids move because of it I am out.