Lying federal lawyer

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not enough facts, too muddled IMO.

I can tell you that one bedrock guideline is that lack of candor or provable (key element) material lying in an official proceeding is often worse and leads to harsher penalty than the underlying incident under investigation.

My clients for 20+ yrs were federal criminal investigators and I always told them that lack of candor was as much or more their worry than the substance of many inquiries.

6:11 here. Quite true. Lying in an investigation (Lack of candor in fedspeak) often becomes much more serious than the substance of the investigation -- absence without leave, outside work without permission, whatever it was. This is because IGs and Special Counsels go apeshit about being lied to.

What if the special counsel report says attorney had to have lied and nothing else? In the clear?

In your scenario, OSC reports to the Agency Head that a federal attorney lied during the course of an official investigation, but closes the report as to the act under investigation -- the substantive crime/issue. Correct? No, not in the clear at all. As stated in previous posts, lack of candor during an investigation can often become much more serious than the underlying investigation itself. I've seen federal employees suspended for a day or two of misconduct but if they lie during the course of the investigation, that goes up to a week's suspension, or more. Don't lie during an investigation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not enough facts, too muddled IMO.

I can tell you that one bedrock guideline is that lack of candor or provable (key element) material lying in an official proceeding is often worse and leads to harsher penalty than the underlying incident under investigation.

My clients for 20+ yrs were federal criminal investigators and I always told them that lack of candor was as much or more their worry than the substance of many inquiries.

6:11 here. Quite true. Lying in an investigation (Lack of candor in fedspeak) often becomes much more serious than the substance of the investigation -- absence without leave, outside work without permission, whatever it was. This is because IGs and Special Counsels go apeshit about being lied to.

What if the special counsel report says attorney had to have lied and nothing else? In the clear?

In your scenario, OSC reports to the Agency Head that a federal attorney lied during the course of an official investigation, but closes the report as to the act under investigation -- the substantive crime/issue. Correct? No, not in the clear at all. As stated in previous posts, lack of candor during an investigation can often become much more serious than the underlying investigation itself. I've seen federal employees suspended for a day or two of misconduct but if they lie during the course of the investigation, that goes up to a week's suspension, or more. Don't lie during an investigation.

In the two agencies I have worked for, you lie and you get removed. One week suspension, for real?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not enough facts, too muddled IMO.

I can tell you that one bedrock guideline is that lack of candor or provable (key element) material lying in an official proceeding is often worse and leads to harsher penalty than the underlying incident under investigation.

My clients for 20+ yrs were federal criminal investigators and I always told them that lack of candor was as much or more their worry than the substance of many inquiries.

6:11 here. Quite true. Lying in an investigation (Lack of candor in fedspeak) often becomes much more serious than the substance of the investigation -- absence without leave, outside work without permission, whatever it was. This is because IGs and Special Counsels go apeshit about being lied to.

What if the special counsel report says attorney had to have lied and nothing else? In the clear?

In your scenario, OSC reports to the Agency Head that a federal attorney lied during the course of an official investigation, but closes the report as to the act under investigation -- the substantive crime/issue. Correct? No, not in the clear at all. As stated in previous posts, lack of candor during an investigation can often become much more serious than the underlying investigation itself. I've seen federal employees suspended for a day or two of misconduct but if they lie during the course of the investigation, that goes up to a week's suspension, or more. Don't lie during an investigation.

In the two agencies I have worked for, you lie and you get removed. One week suspension, for real?!

Depends on what you are lying about and what you do, and totally on the context. Lack of candor under MSPB law usually does not support removal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not enough facts, too muddled IMO.

I can tell you that one bedrock guideline is that lack of candor or provable (key element) material lying in an official proceeding is often worse and leads to harsher penalty than the underlying incident under investigation.

My clients for 20+ yrs were federal criminal investigators and I always told them that lack of candor was as much or more their worry than the substance of many inquiries.

6:11 here. Quite true. Lying in an investigation (Lack of candor in fedspeak) often becomes much more serious than the substance of the investigation -- absence without leave, outside work without permission, whatever it was. This is because IGs and Special Counsels go apeshit about being lied to.

What if the special counsel report says attorney had to have lied and nothing else? In the clear?

In your scenario, OSC reports to the Agency Head that a federal attorney lied during the course of an official investigation, but closes the report as to the act under investigation -- the substantive crime/issue. Correct? No, not in the clear at all. As stated in previous posts, lack of candor during an investigation can often become much more serious than the underlying investigation itself. I've seen federal employees suspended for a day or two of misconduct but if they lie during the course of the investigation, that goes up to a week's suspension, or more. Don't lie during an investigation.

In the two agencies I have worked for, you lie and you get removed. One week suspension, for real?!

Depends on what you are lying about and what you do, and totally on the context. Lack of candor under MSPB law usually does not support removal.

Lack of candor frequently supports removal and falsification always does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not enough facts, too muddled IMO.

I can tell you that one bedrock guideline is that lack of candor or provable (key element) material lying in an official proceeding is often worse and leads to harsher penalty than the underlying incident under investigation.

My clients for 20+ yrs were federal criminal investigators and I always told them that lack of candor was as much or more their worry than the substance of many inquiries.

6:11 here. Quite true. Lying in an investigation (Lack of candor in fedspeak) often becomes much more serious than the substance of the investigation -- absence without leave, outside work without permission, whatever it was. This is because IGs and Special Counsels go apeshit about being lied to.

What if the special counsel report says attorney had to have lied and nothing else? In the clear?

In your scenario, OSC reports to the Agency Head that a federal attorney lied during the course of an official investigation, but closes the report as to the act under investigation -- the substantive crime/issue. Correct? No, not in the clear at all. As stated in previous posts, lack of candor during an investigation can often become much more serious than the underlying investigation itself. I've seen federal employees suspended for a day or two of misconduct but if they lie during the course of the investigation, that goes up to a week's suspension, or more. Don't lie during an investigation.

In the two agencies I have worked for, you lie and you get removed. One week suspension, for real?!

Depends on what you are lying about and what you do, and totally on the context. Lack of candor under MSPB law usually does not support removal.

Lack of candor frequently supports removal and falsification always does.

Lack of candor is not a stand alone removal offense. It's an enhancer when you have other serious charges. Falsification is an entirely different offense with different elements so I'm not even sure why you are bringing it up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not enough facts, too muddled IMO.

I can tell you that one bedrock guideline is that lack of candor or provable (key element) material lying in an official proceeding is often worse and leads to harsher penalty than the underlying incident under investigation.

My clients for 20+ yrs were federal criminal investigators and I always told them that lack of candor was as much or more their worry than the substance of many inquiries.

6:11 here. Quite true. Lying in an investigation (Lack of candor in fedspeak) often becomes much more serious than the substance of the investigation -- absence without leave, outside work without permission, whatever it was. This is because IGs and Special Counsels go apeshit about being lied to.

What if the special counsel report says attorney had to have lied and nothing else? In the clear?

In your scenario, OSC reports to the Agency Head that a federal attorney lied during the course of an official investigation, but closes the report as to the act under investigation -- the substantive crime/issue. Correct? No, not in the clear at all. As stated in previous posts, lack of candor during an investigation can often become much more serious than the underlying investigation itself. I've seen federal employees suspended for a day or two of misconduct but if they lie during the course of the investigation, that goes up to a week's suspension, or more. Don't lie during an investigation.

In the two agencies I have worked for, you lie and you get removed. One week suspension, for real?!

Depends on what you are lying about and what you do, and totally on the context. Lack of candor under MSPB law usually does not support removal.

Lack of candor frequently supports removal and falsification always does.

Lack of candor is not a stand alone removal offense. It's an enhancer when you have other serious charges. Falsification is an entirely different offense with different elements so I'm not even sure why you are bringing it up.

Falsification is often used interchangeably with "false statement" which equates to intentional lying for personal gain. I am bringing it up because it is a charge that could be used to remove someone for lying, which is the topic of this post. People get removed for it.

And you may quibble with whether you can remove someone for LOC alone (you can, I have done it.) But there is still a lot of space between a week suspension and a removal. To not even take an adverse action when someone has lied in an official investigation--regardless of the position--is ludicrous. That is what gives the federal government a bad name.