Jews and God

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also, with Exodus, if there was no god, what did the people of Israel even here? Which leads to the question, why would they accept the covenant if they didn't hear anything?

You are confused. The question at issue is what is the status of the non-believing Jew, from the standpoint of a believing Jew. To the believing Jew of course G-d was present at Sinai and that was the basis of the covenant. BUT the covenant still encompasses and binds all the descendants of the Israelites who made the covenant - EVEN any given individual descendant who is not a believer.


From the stand point of the non-believer, Exodus is a fairy tale (to some a beautiful fairy tale) and there is no god, no covenant, and thus no Jewish chosenness. Which is why I know of know atheists who believe the Jews to be chosen, though some are very proud of the being Jewish.

[Anonymous]

Why are you bringing gentiles into the discussion? This is about jews and god and those that are atheist believing they are still jewish. It appears you may be incorrect on this anyways. The seven laws of Noah specifically state that gentiles cannot worship anyone but the same god as the jews believe in. Seems strange to expect that non jews believe in god, but jews don't have to.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/seven-laws-of-noah/

"But an individual descended from the people does not escape the covenant". The bible seems to imply that he does. It doesn't say the covenant is the jew's covenant. It says it's God's covenant. "If you obey me completely and keep my covenant, you will be my treasured possession among all peoples, though all the earth is mine." Maybe you have a different translation, but this is the one I pulled up.

[Anonymous]

"some people think the US was chosen by G-d to be a City on a Hill" ??? Maybe in your circles. Never heard of this in my life

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_upon_a_Hill

https://www.google.com/search?q=america+the+shining+city+on+upon+a+hill&oq=america+the+shin&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.6402j0j8&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#q=america+chosen+by+god

and obviously the constitution speaks nothing of this.

The constitution is a legal document, not a statement of national or religious ideology.

I am not sure why you need to be quite so condescending in all of your remarks. For someone who thinks others are so stupid, why bother to reply?

Because others might read this. I do not understand why you are having difficulty with these points which seem so clear to me, nor why you are asking (and asking very aggressively) about things you could easily look up. I can only conclude you either ARE intellectually challenged (which just might have something to do with your lack of social success) or you are not a person of good will, and for whatever reason hate Jews and want to say bad things about them. You would hardly be the first.

I am not going to walk on eggshells for you, sorry. If a an argument is stupid, I will say so, and if someone needs to read a basic book on a topic I will say so.

[Anonymous]

Why are you bringing gentiles into the discussion? This is about jews and god and those that are atheist believing they are still jewish.

If they ceaseed to be Jewish they would become gentiles, so showing they are treated differently than gentiles is relevant.

It appears you may be incorrect on this anyways. The seven laws of Noah specifically state that gentiles cannot worship anyone but the same god as the jews believe in. Seems strange to expect that non jews believe in god, but jews don't have to.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/seven-laws-of-noah/

Your source is wrong. The ban on idolatry is not found in Gen 9, which is the source of the commandments to the sons of Noah.

"But an individual descended from the people does not escape the covenant". The bible seems to imply that he does. It doesn't say the covenant is the jew's covenant. It says it's God's covenant. "If

you obey me completely and keep my covenan

t, you will be my treasured possession among all peoples, though all the earth is mine." Maybe you have a different translation, but this is the one I pulled up.

The you is the Jewish people assembled at Sinai. You can choose to intepret that differently if you wish, and it may be that other Christians do. But the Jewish interpretation, is that this is a covenant between the people Israel and God, and that is how it has been read by the Jewish tradition. I thought it was the Jewish position you wished to learn about? Are you interested in learning, or are you here to argue?

[Anonymous]

"Your source is wrong. The ban on idolatry is not found in Gen 9, which is the source of the commandments to the sons of Noah."

How about this one? Instead of me picking out the wrong ones, can you please show me where it says differently that you say is correct?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

Also, there appear to be many parts of the old testament which in many bibles says the covenant was broken between the jews and God. I'm afraid to point out a source that you don't like, so perhaps you could find a source that refutes this. Scholars say it was a marriage covenant in Exodus where God gave the ten commandments and said only he could enact or retract the covenant. The bible then goes on to say that the covenant was restored, but if it was broken once, why could it not be broken again?

[Anonymous]

"The you is the Jewish people assembled at Sinai. You can choose to intepret that differently if you wish, and it may be that other Christians do. But the Jewish interpretation, is that this is a covenant between the people Israel and God, and that is how it has been read by the Jewish tradition. I thought it was the Jewish position you wished to learn about? Are you interested in learning, or are you here to argue? "

I am not here to argue. I did not start this thread, so there is at least someone else as stupid as me who is looking for answers on this. I should have said that it appears that jews can break the covenant with god or that God can break it with them. I should have used the plural for jews. My apology.

[Anonymous]

This website even says that the only covenant that could not be broken was the Abrahamic covenant that was between God and Abraham. Not the Mosaic covenant. I'm really glad you have it all straightened out because the web has a lot of conflicting information.

I. The Abrahamic covenant was unconditional (Gen.15), could not be broken, and was permanent. The Mosaic covenant was conditional and was eventually broken by the Israelites (Deut.28) and God destroyed them as a nation in 70A.D (until a future time).

II. The “eternal” future of Israel as a nation and God’s people was based upon the Abrahamic Covenant, not the Mosaic Covenant.

[Anonymous]

OP here. Thank you all for taking the time to repond so thoroughly. Much of the discussion is above my head - I was raised outside of any religion - but my main takeaway is that there are indeed people who would say they are jewish but don't believe in God simply bc that is their background / culture. Is that right? So being Jewish is more a culture than a religion? I know there are Reform, conservative and orthodox sects of Judaism. Would the non believers be more found in reform synagogues? This is just so interesting to me since I'm not religious (my mom was from a Christian family and my dad from a jewish family but like I mentioned they raised me without any religion) and so don't understand why someone would label themselves as a particular religion without believing in God. But I guess it's just they feel it's more of a culture than religion...?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My Dad says that many Jews do not believe in God. Is that true? If it is, why would anyone who does not believe in God call themselves Jewish (or any other religion).

Ps. I myself am atheist / agnostic.

Jewish was a people before it was a "religion"

"you shall be my people, and I shall be your G-d" Implies that first the Jews were a people, then they accepted, as a people G-d's covenant. They accepted the covenant on behalf of themselves and their descendants so anyone who is of Jewish descent is bound by it, whether they believe G-d exists or not.

That is the religious Jewish answer.

The non religious answers is that the Jews are a people like any other - and you can be any religion or nonreligion and be Jewish. The real question for those is why are atheists more likely to be accepted as Jews, than Jews who covert to Christianity or Islam. The answer, I think is that Jews who because atheists historically contained to live with the Jewish community, behind legally mandated ghetto walls. Converts to Christianity were, by law, not allowed to live in the Jewish ghetto or have contact with Jews, so conversion represented a turning of ones back on the community in a more profound way.

There is a person in the AMA jewish post that has said something different. Are you agreeing with each other or disagreeing and why?

"I believe that there is a contradiction in saying Jews are "chosen" if there is no G-d. What does that mean? Who can do the choosing? OTOH I cannot control the logic other people use.

There are certainly secular Jews who are proud of their heritage. But that is not chosenness"

Two Jews, three opinions.

I am Jewish, and LOL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thank you all for taking the time to repond so thoroughly. Much of the discussion is above my head - I was raised outside of any religion - but my main takeaway is that there are indeed people who would say they are jewish but don't believe in God simply bc that is their background / culture. Is that right? So being Jewish is more a culture than a religion? I know there are Reform, conservative and orthodox sects of Judaism. Would the non believers be more found in reform synagogues? This is just so interesting to me since I'm not religious (my mom was from a Christian family and my dad from a jewish family but like I mentioned they raised me without any religion) and so don't understand why someone would label themselves as a particular religion without believing in God. But I guess it's just they feel it's more of a culture than religion...?

It is a good question and if you google it you'll find lots and lots of different answers. Here's my perspective:
I am a Jewish Atheist. According to Judaism, any person born to a Jewish mother is Jewish, so because my mother was a Jew, I was born Jewish and not believing does not make me un-Jewish. So the simple answer is that I am Jewish because I was born Jewish.

My ancestors were Jewish and my grandparents all practiced the Jewish traditions so I consider this part of my heritage. Even though I don't believe in any religion, and I never participate in any organized religious activity, I do sometimes celebrate some Jewish holidays (e.g. Hannukah, and Passover). It's fun to celebrate one's heritage, and for me, it's a harmless connection to past generations.
Also, I had some genetic testing done, for unrelated reasons, and genetically, I clearly have strong Jewish ancestry.

The issue is even more complicated than religion vs. culture. Historically, the Jews were expelled from their land (around 600 BC, but this was a process that took hundreds of years). So after that, the Jews spent over 2000 years in exile and developed unique cultures (being often isolated by force or choice from the rest of the population where they lived). Because they were living in different geographical areas for many generations (Middle East, Europe, Africa, almost anywhere in the world really), they were very influenced by the different cultures where they lived, so there really are significant differences in culture between Jews. The Jewish "religion" itself is basically the same, but even with that, there are differences in the way it is practiced.

[Anonymous]

OP, if someone tells you they are Jewish, it is akin (but not the same as) someone saying they are French. It is about their culture, background, ancestors, and identity. It doesn't tell you anything about whether they practice as a religion.

[Anonymous]

"Jewish" is one of those words with many meanings. An orthodox Jew might consider me Jewish, despite the fact that I am a totally secular atheist, because my mother was Jewish. Most Americans would also consider me Jewish because my family was, regardless of my beliefs.

I consider myself Jewish because from as far back as I remember, the word was part of my self-image. Someone else with virtually the same background might not consider himself Jewish because he thinks of it as a religion and happens not to have the self-image.

There is no Jewish Vatican to lay down the law on what it means to be Jewish. The one authority who gave a precise definition was Hitler, and his influence has waned. I suppose Isralei law also does so, but it has no weight here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thank you all for taking the time to repond so thoroughly. Much of the discussion is above my head - I was raised outside of any religion - but my main takeaway is that there are indeed people who would say they are jewish but don't believe in God simply bc that is their background / culture. Is that right? So being Jewish is more a culture than a religion? I know there are Reform, conservative and orthodox sects of Judaism. Would the non believers be more found in reform synagogues? This is just so interesting to me since I'm not religious (my mom was from a Christian family and my dad from a jewish family but like I mentioned they raised me without any religion) and so don't understand why someone would label themselves as a particular religion without believing in God. But I guess it's just they feel it's more of a culture than religion...?

It is a good question and if you google it you'll find lots and lots of different answers. Here's my perspective:
I am a Jewish Atheist. According to Judaism, any person born to a Jewish mother is Jewish, so because my mother was a Jew, I was born Jewish and not believing does not make me un-Jewish. So the simple answer is that I am Jewish because I was born Jewish.

My ancestors were Jewish and my grandparents all practiced the Jewish traditions so I consider this part of my heritage. Even though I don't believe in any religion, and I never participate in any organized religious activity, I do sometimes celebrate some Jewish holidays (e.g. Hannukah, and Passover). It's fun to celebrate one's heritage, and for me, it's a harmless connection to past generations.
Also, I had some genetic testing done, for unrelated reasons, and genetically, I clearly have strong Jewish ancestry.

The issue is even more complicated than religion vs. culture. Historically, the Jews were expelled from their land (around 600 BC, but this was a process that took hundreds of years). So after that, the Jews spent over 2000 years in exile and developed unique cultures (being often isolated by force or choice from the rest of the population where they lived). Because they were living in different geographical areas for many generations (Middle East, Europe, Africa, almost anywhere in the world really), they were very influenced by the different cultures where they lived, so there really are significant differences in culture between Jews. The Jewish "religion" itself is basically the same, but even with that, there are differences in the way it is practiced.

You are a much more sensible poster than the previous man. Thank you for your insight and civil discussion.

[Anonymous]

You get to be jewish until your family gives you a funeral service and the synagogue writes in its book something against your name.

You will most likely not be invited to the funeral