What is Burgundy Farm Country Day Community/Administration Like?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is a strangely difficult question to answer. We were a long term Burgundy family who eventually left and wished we had left a few years earlier than we did. Leaving is a tough decision because your children will likely be very happy (especially at Burgundy!) and will not want to leave their group of friends.

The difficulty in assessing the school is that it provides three distinct experiences: early years (jk thru about 2nd grade), late elementary (about 3 thru 5), and then middle school. I use the word "about" for those groupings because they do not reflect how the classes are actually grouped plus your child's own academic development will vary ... one child might start to experience "lack of challenge" OR "need for remediation" at 2nd while another at 3rd grade.

Very few parents are unhappy with the early years. The place is a dream -- tons of outside time, lots of art and creativity, their strongest teachers, lovely social support environment, very few academic problems/issues, no sexuality coursework or politics included in lesson plans. No friction. This is the part of the school that most touring parents see and fall in love with for good reason. Ask parents of young kids if they are happy with their choice and you tend to get a fairly unanimous YES! Lots of community volunteering and involvement at this age level too, so everyone is just HAPPY for the most part.

Then comes those later elementary years. If you apply your child to the JK or K years, you had no real idea of your child's academic needs at that time. Trust me, you really don't know at that point. So you guess what school will be the right fit and assume you will adjust later if needed. There are certain types of learners that just really thrive at a school like Burgundy. Self-motivated kids who are not just curious but seek out information and can make intellectual inferences get a lot out of the program. Middle of the pack kids do just fine. The two groups that I personally feel don't do as well are (1) kids who need more support and (2) smart kids who don't care to use their abilities.

The kids who need support are not easily identified by teachers or by you the parent. Why? Because the Burgundy "way" as a philosophy allows such latitude in learning outcomes and tests so infrequently. I had a sense that one of my children was quite weak on a particular skill but was assured over the years that she was within the age appropriate range and that I should not worry. Finally the 4th grade ERB indicated a serious lag and STILL I was assured that I shouldn't worry on the basis of just one standardized test. The 5th grade ERB confirmed the problem was even worse (the unaddressed skill deficit had really changed but the cohort had increased by a year whereas my child had not.) Burgundy really teaches only one way. They provide a lot of lip service to "teaching children where they are" and "differentiation" etc. etc. but if you attend much time in a classroom you will see that they all largely do the same activities in the same way. If your child is happily doing all the things but quietly not learning a thing and there is no end of unit test to learn that this is the case ... you'd be surprised how long it will take you as a parent to figure out there is a problem.

That second group of kids who are capable of doing seriously more challenging work but love not having to do so will be fine when they get to HS. It is a philosophical issue for you the parent to decide if an easygoing academic experience through 8th grade is a gift or a wasted opportunity! I obviously leaned towards the gift viewpoint, but now that my kids are at schools that lean just a bit harder on the challenge end, I find that they are happy to learn what they are capable of when they are required to do more. It makes them happy in a different way.

Finally, to address your actual question. If the difficulty you have with the school is related to wanting more support, differentiation, challenge etc. for your child ... I would anticipate you will experience massive frustration. And the parental group think comes in here too ... most parents chose the school because they support the "gift" viewpoint. This should not come as a surprise to anyone. If the problem you have is one related to bullying (yes, this definitely occurs at this school despite their social curriculum ... it happens at ALL schools) or other social concerns, it was my experience that the administration and teachers attempted to be very helpful.

I cannot provide much insight into the middle school years as we chose to leave before that time. The anecdotal stories I heard and continue to hear from friends are not too good. But that is not first hand info.

Bottom line: Understand the culture and teaching goals of the grades you are applying into and be very sure you are in agreement. The school will not change its culture or curriculum for your child. They will not provide meaningful accelerated anything for your child, including math. They may tell you otherwise but it is not true. The school is wonderful for many, many kids. But be prepared to leave if you need something different. This is of course true for any school.

Just wanted to add to my already ridiculously long post that I did not personally feel that the parents were flaunting their wealth. There is definitely wealth aplenty and many (not all) of the parents serving on the Board tend to be social climbers, but they are easily avoided if you wish.

[Anonymous]

I am a teacher who went there for a job interview 5 years ago. It was the strangest "interview" I have ever been on. It was almost as if they had already hired someone for the position, and forgot to cancel the interview(?)... They looked surprised when I told them I was there for the interview. They walked me to a K classroom to observe. They did not introduce me to the K teachers or tell me when they would return or what I should be doing. They just said, 'sit here.' After about 90 minutes of 'sitting' I found my way back to the main office, where they told me that the head of school was not there, and that I could go home. That was it. I never heard from them again. I did send an email stating my displeasure at their unprofessional and rude behavior.

[Anonymous]

Clearly, Burgundy's is not appropriate for parents with less bright children who maintain unreasonably high expectations. You can only commit to a progressive approach if you actually believe that education is about uncovering your child's potential. It is a pretty bad fit for parents who think children are just lumps of clay to be molded into any image.

FWIW - As a parent of a Burgundy graduate in high school, Burgundy is a really great fit if you want to foster creativity and independence. If you are confident your child will be an academic high flyer, rest assured that there is plenty of time in high school for your child to be obsessed about achievement. Burgundy is a really wonderful place to be a child. The refusal to be caught up in acceleration and testing is a feature, not a bug. Stick to the Fairfax County AAP if that is your orientation. DC had no problems with high school admission to the most selective local independents and aced the the most challenging courses DC's high school allowed freshmen to take. Burgundy preparation was not a problem at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Clearly, Burgundy's is not appropriate for parents with less bright children who maintain unreasonably high expectations. You can only commit to a progressive approach if you actually believe that education is about uncovering your child's potential. It is a pretty bad fit for parents who think children are just lumps of clay to be molded into any image.

This nasty little assessment of some fellow parents' concerns or foibles is common at Burgundy.

[Anonymous]

Burgundy is not a fancy school. You're not going to do any social climbing by going there. It's newest buildings are 20 years old and the science classroom is in a trailer. And, it literally sits at the end of a dirt road. I can't quite understand what PPs was as ostentatious displays of wealth.

It exists for the children and parents who want a progressive educational philosophy. That approach doesn't work for everyone. But, if it doesn't work for your child, is it fair to ask that it change on everyone else who specifically chose the school for that reason?

Just as tolerance and inclusiveness do not encompass being tolerant of racists and inclusive of homophobes, an individualized progressive educational philosophy doesn't mean that you try any old approach for any particular child.

It means that you understand children's development is not governed by the calendar. It means understanding that there are multiple ways of solving any particular problem. And it means that arbitrary measures like standardized testing are relatively meaningless. It acknowledges that not every child will go to HYP and it values the 99% of children who won't. But it won't force them to drill and kill in a vain effort create future Ivy Leaguers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Clearly, Burgundy's is not appropriate for parents with less bright children who maintain unreasonably high expectations. You can only commit to a progressive approach if you actually believe that education is about uncovering your child's potential. It is a pretty bad fit for parents who think children are just lumps of clay to be molded into any image.

This nasty little assessment of some fellow parents' concerns or foibles is common at Burgundy.

That was my thought exactly. For all their talk of tolerance and inclusivity, it can be a very hateful place if you don't buy into everything 100%. We also found the admin and teachers turned a blind eye to bullying as mentioned by previous posters. Some kids will do well at Burgundy and go on to successful academic achievement. Many others are so academically crippled by the environment that they either never catch up to their peers or their parents spend thousands of dollars extra to teach them what should gave been taught in the classroom. I wouldn't recommend the school to anyone.

One of the PPs here. This mirrors our very brief experience at Burgundy. A slice of the parents basically acts as the self-appointed doctrine-enforcers, even though they really cannot articulate much about the school, and even asking an innocent question results in nasty commentary from those parents. We will never forget walking into a classroom and seeing one of those parents "co-teaching" the class with the obviously-peeved teacher; it appeared that the parent had self-appointed to that role as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is a strangely difficult question to answer. We were a long term Burgundy family who eventually left and wished we had left a few years earlier than we did. Leaving is a tough decision because your children will likely be very happy (especially at Burgundy!) and will not want to leave their group of friends.

The difficulty in assessing the school is that it provides three distinct experiences: early years (jk thru about 2nd grade), late elementary (about 3 thru 5), and then middle school. I use the word "about" for those groupings because they do not reflect how the classes are actually grouped plus your child's own academic development will vary ... one child might start to experience "lack of challenge" OR "need for remediation" at 2nd while another at 3rd grade.

Very few parents are unhappy with the early years. The place is a dream -- tons of outside time, lots of art and creativity, their strongest teachers, lovely social support environment, very few academic problems/issues, no sexuality coursework or politics included in lesson plans. No friction. This is the part of the school that most touring parents see and fall in love with for good reason. Ask parents of young kids if they are happy with their choice and you tend to get a fairly unanimous YES! Lots of community volunteering and involvement at this age level too, so everyone is just HAPPY for the most part.

Then comes those later elementary years. If you apply your child to the JK or K years, you had no real idea of your child's academic needs at that time. Trust me, you really don't know at that point. So you guess what school will be the right fit and assume you will adjust later if needed. There are certain types of learners that just really thrive at a school like Burgundy. Self-motivated kids who are not just curious but seek out information and can make intellectual inferences get a lot out of the program. Middle of the pack kids do just fine. The two groups that I personally feel don't do as well are (1) kids who need more support and (2) smart kids who don't care to use their abilities.

The kids who need support are not easily identified by teachers or by you the parent. Why? Because the Burgundy "way" as a philosophy allows such latitude in learning outcomes and tests so infrequently. I had a sense that one of my children was quite weak on a particular skill but was assured over the years that she was within the age appropriate range and that I should not worry. Finally the 4th grade ERB indicated a serious lag and STILL I was assured that I shouldn't worry on the basis of just one standardized test. The 5th grade ERB confirmed the problem was even worse (the unaddressed skill deficit had really changed but the cohort had increased by a year whereas my child had not.) Burgundy really teaches only one way. They provide a lot of lip service to "teaching children where they are" and "differentiation" etc. etc. but if you attend much time in a classroom you will see that they all largely do the same activities in the same way. If your child is happily doing all the things but quietly not learning a thing and there is no end of unit test to learn that this is the case ... you'd be surprised how long it will take you as a parent to figure out there is a problem.

That second group of kids who are capable of doing seriously more challenging work but love not having to do so will be fine when they get to HS. It is a philosophical issue for you the parent to decide if an easygoing academic experience through 8th grade is a gift or a wasted opportunity! I obviously leaned towards the gift viewpoint, but now that my kids are at schools that lean just a bit harder on the challenge end, I find that they are happy to learn what they are capable of when they are required to do more. It makes them happy in a different way.

Finally, to address your actual question. If the difficulty you have with the school is related to wanting more support, differentiation, challenge etc. for your child ... I would anticipate you will experience massive frustration. And the parental group think comes in here too ... most parents chose the school because they support the "gift" viewpoint. This should not come as a surprise to anyone. If the problem you have is one related to bullying (yes, this definitely occurs at this school despite their social curriculum ... it happens at ALL schools) or other social concerns, it was my experience that the administration and teachers attempted to be very helpful.

I cannot provide much insight into the middle school years as we chose to leave before that time. The anecdotal stories I heard and continue to hear from friends are not too good. But that is not first hand info.

Bottom line: Understand the culture and teaching goals of the grades you are applying into and be very sure you are in agreement. The school will not change its culture or curriculum for your child. They will not provide meaningful accelerated anything for your child, including math. They may tell you otherwise but it is not true. The school is wonderful for many, many kids. But be prepared to leave if you need something different. This is of course true for any school.

Burgundy parent of two here. I think the above post is about right. It's a lovely school in many ways, kind and nurturing. My kids feel absolutely at home there. BUT -- if I could do at all over, I would pull them both out before Middle School, which I think is the weakest part of the school. Too late now, and maybe things will change: they have a new middle school head and several new teachers and staff for the middle school. Anyway: I would not hesitate at all about the early childhood program or the lower school. If looking at middle school i'd be more skeptical.

Agree, btw, that the claims about "differentiated instruction" at Burgundy are basically nonsense. It's pretty much one size fits all.

Do not agree that the administration is cavalier about bullying. In my kids' experience there has been zero bullying. There has been occasional meanness, but the teachers respond quick;y and appropriately.

Also agree that it is a pretty laid back parent culture, without ostentatious displays of wealth. There are definitely some very wealthy families, but there are plenty of scholarship families and ordinary folks, too. I'd put us in the "ordinary" category: we aren't poor, but we drive a honda, work full time, live in a smallish old house, and usually look kind of scruffy, frankly. No one has every been less than warm and unpretentious.

[Anonymous]

Evaluate for yourself. Do not rely on outdated information. Some of the above is out of date.

[Anonymous]

Burgundy parent of two here. I think the above post is about right. It's a lovely school in many ways, kind and nurturing. My kids feel absolutely at home there. BUT -- if I could do at all over, I would pull them both out before Middle School, which I think is the weakest part of the school. Too late now, and maybe things will change: they have a new middle school head and several new teachers and staff for the middle school. Anyway: I would not hesitate at all about the early childhood program or the lower school. If looking at middle school i'd be more skeptical.

Agree, btw, that the claims about "differentiated instruction" at Burgundy are basically nonsense. It's pretty much one size fits all.

Do not agree that the administration is cavalier about bullying. In my kids' experience there has been zero bullying. There has been occasional meanness, but the teachers respond quick;y and appropriately.

Also agree that it is a pretty laid back parent culture, without ostentatious displays of wealth. There are definitely some very wealthy families, but there are plenty of scholarship families and ordinary folks, too. I'd put us in the "ordinary" category: we aren't poor, but we drive a honda, work full time, live in a smallish old house, and usually look kind of scruffy, frankly. No one has every been less than warm and unpretentious.

I generally agree with your assessment about differentiated instruction vs one size fits all. However, I adamantly disagree about the issue of bullying.

[Anonymous]

No offense, PP, but the only time I heard a Burgundy parent complain about "bullying," the irony was that their kid was the bully and everyone knew it but them. Their kid was being left out, not invited to parties, etc. by other kids -- for the simple reason that he was rough (pushed and shoved to get his way) and unpleasant and hostile (cursed at people, called other kids nasty names), and eventually the other kids stopped wanting to be around him. The bully's parents complained and found the teachers "unsympathetic." I think the reality was that the teachers were just too wimpy to say, "Actually, your son is the problem."

That family left after a year, convinced that Burgundy "didn't take bullying seriously," and everyone else breathed a sigh of relief: finally, the bully was gone!

YMMV

[Anonymous]

This is my third year as a Burgundy parent and I haven't witness anything even resembling a cavalier attitude towards bullying. I have children at other schools and there are always good years and bad years for class chemistry. And there are always a couple jerks in every class. I've really never seen an effective solution. You can watch them closely, intervene, redirect, etc. but you can't make a jerk into a non-jerk.

I've definitely seen things I love and things I don't at Burgundy, but I think implying that the school is weaker at addressing bullying than other schools isn't something that I've observed. Somehow about 40% of the population grew into adult jerks, so clearly a solution to this issues hasn't been worked out yet anywhere in the world

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is my third year as a Burgundy parent and I haven't witness anything even resembling a cavalier attitude towards bullying. I have children at other schools and there are always good years and bad years for class chemistry. And there are always a couple jerks in every class. I've really never seen an effective solution. You can watch them closely, intervene, redirect, etc. but you can't make a jerk into a non-jerk.

I've definitely seen things I love and things I don't at Burgundy, but I think implying that the school is weaker at addressing bullying than other schools isn't something that I've observed. Somehow about 40% of the population grew into adult jerks, so clearly a solution to this issues hasn't been worked out yet anywhere in the world

Too true.

It's funny, my kids love to watch these awful teen sitcoms, usually set at fictitious public high schools. In these sitcoms, kids are always being stuffed into lockers, tripped in the hallways or the lunchroom, having milk purposely poured on their homework, being told they're ugly, or being actually beaten up. I frequently ask my kids, both at Burgundy, "Do you think real kids actually do stuff lie this? Does this kind of thing happen at Burgundy?" They shake their heads and say no, sometimes people argue or are annoying, but that's it....

I'd say Burgundy is quite good at promoting a respectful and kind atmosphere. Not perfect - kids are kids and the teachers can't see everything, and can't alter personalities influenced by outside factors, but quite good. Far from thinking that bullying or tolerance thereof is an issue at Burgundy, I sometimes worry that I am doing a disservice to my kids by letting them stay in this hapy little Burgundy bubble of love and kindness. They may be in for a shock when they hit the real world after 8th and discover that not every place is as nurturing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is my third year as a Burgundy parent and I haven't witness anything even resembling a cavalier attitude towards bullying. I have children at other schools and there are always good years and bad years for class chemistry. And there are always a couple jerks in every class. I've really never seen an effective solution. You can watch them closely, intervene, redirect, etc. but you can't make a jerk into a non-jerk.

I've definitely seen things I love and things I don't at Burgundy, but I think implying that the school is weaker at addressing bullying than other schools isn't something that I've observed. Somehow about 40% of the population grew into adult jerks, so clearly a solution to this issues hasn't been worked out yet anywhere in the world

Too true.

It's funny, my kids love to watch these awful teen sitcoms, usually set at fictitious public high schools. In these sitcoms, kids are always being stuffed into lockers, tripped in the hallways or the lunchroom, having milk purposely poured on their homework, being told they're ugly, or being actually beaten up. I frequently ask my kids, both at Burgundy, "Do you think real kids actually do stuff lie this? Does this kind of thing happen at Burgundy?" They shake their heads and say no, sometimes people argue or are annoying, but that's it....

I'd say Burgundy is quite good at promoting a respectful and kind atmosphere. Not perfect - kids are kids and the teachers can't see everything, and can't alter personalities influenced by outside factors, but quite good. Far from thinking that bullying or tolerance thereof is an issue at Burgundy, I sometimes worry that I am doing a disservice to my kids by letting them stay in this hapy little Burgundy bubble of love and kindness. They may be in for a shock when they hit the real world after 8th and discover that not every place is as nurturing.

The sitcoms you mention show the cliche version of bullying. I think we all understand that there are also much more nuanced, passive aggressive, subtle ways that kids are mean to each other that don't make good tv shows but happen all the time at all schools. Even at burgundy. But burgundy does the best it can, so no complaints. Kids being mean to other kids is sort of a learning experience itself ...

[Anonymous]

Sure. Kids do the eye roll, the turn-your-back-and-pretend-you-didn't-see thing with a kid they don't want to play with, the subtle brush off. ("What are you guys talking about?" "Oh, nothing.") They do a million tiny little mean things. But by itself, this is not "bullying." Not everything that hurts a kid's feelings is bullying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sure. Kids do the eye roll, the turn-your-back-and-pretend-you-didn't-see thing with a kid they don't want to play with, the subtle brush off. ("What are you guys talking about?" "Oh, nothing.") They do a million tiny little mean things. But by itself, this is not "bullying." Not everything that hurts a kid's feelings is bullying.

If these kinds of behaviors are done in a systematic way that's designed to exclude one child from being part of a group, yes it is bullying.