Wilson High -- Principal Selection Meeting/Anyone Go?

[Anonymous]

We should stop harping on the AP thing - it is not the crux of the issue. It was just given as ONE example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How could DPCS think a new principal can close the gap when they can't even figure it out themselves.......

I think an important thing to look at is where the students are when they come in and where they are when they leave- do they improve at Wilson?

I do think there is a big push for students of all levels to take AP classes- think of the ridiculous Jay Matthews rankings.

Despite what

The gap was already closing under Cahall -- but apparently DCPS thinks someone else can close it even faster? How's a new principal supposed to do that?

I don't think the gap was closing under Cahall -- but the actual facts can be shown by someone with the real numbers -- that's what we need, without any manipulating or misrepresentation.

As for students improving once they got to Wilson, why would they? and why would this be a reflection on the principal or the teachers at Wilson and not on past schools and the kids and the parents themselves?

Not to say the parents are doing something "wrong" but if they can't provide the type of enrichment (educational travel, 2nd language, tutors, music lessons) that some kids get at home, their kids' scores are not going to be as high. It is a fact that college board scores reflect SES. Why wouldn't hs scores? Why would a hs principal be expected to change this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We should stop harping on the AP thing - it is not the crux of the issue. It was just given as ONE example.

one more harp -- note that when Cahall listed all the many things he'd accomplished at Wilson, he did not mention that AP scores went up - he just left out that metric (a common trick to divert attention from bad news). I suspect that if someone looked at the actual number, we'd see that scores went down.

School-wide AP scores are hard, but not impossible, to obtain. The principal has them, but has no obligation to publicize them (it works this way at private schools too).

Why do I think the scores went down? For the simple reason that more kids were taking the test -- likely some of them pushed by the principal so he could boost the numbers and then proudly report on the increased number of AP students since he took the helm.

Let's say some of these kids weren't prepared, were not eager to take AP and subsequently did not do well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How could DPCS think a new principal can close the gap when they can't even figure it out themselves.......

I think an important thing to look at is where the students are when they come in and where they are when they leave- do they improve at Wilson?

I do think there is a big push for students of all levels to take AP classes- think of the ridiculous Jay Matthews rankings.

Despite what

The gap was already closing under Cahall -- but apparently DCPS thinks someone else can close it even faster? How's a new principal supposed to do that?

I don't think the gap was closing under Cahall -- but the actual facts can be shown by someone with the real numbers -- that's what we need, without any manipulating or misrepresentation.

As for students improving once they got to Wilson, why would they? and why would this be a reflection on the principal or the teachers at Wilson and not on past schools and the kids and the parents themselves?

Not to say the parents are doing something "wrong" but if they can't provide the type of enrichment (educational travel, 2nd language, tutors, music lessons) that some kids get at home, their kids' scores are not going to be as high. It is a fact that college board scores reflect SES. Why wouldn't hs scores? Why would a hs principal be expected to change this?

So we give up on trying to figure out how to make greater gains in closing the achievement gap? Look I think we all know that the reasons for the achievement gap are complicated and extend far beyond what parents do. I've read that even when you compare scores of white students of high SES with black/Latino students of similar economic backgrounds, the gap still exists and persists.

I think it is an important issue for the Wilson community and the new prinicipal to work on. The challenge is making sure the next principal is set up for success.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How could DPCS think a new principal can close the gap when they can't even figure it out themselves.......

I think an important thing to look at is where the students are when they come in and where they are when they leave- do they improve at Wilson?

I do think there is a big push for students of all levels to take AP classes- think of the ridiculous Jay Matthews rankings.

Despite what

The gap was already closing under Cahall -- but apparently DCPS thinks someone else can close it even faster? How's a new principal supposed to do that?

I don't think the gap was closing under Cahall -- but the actual facts can be shown by someone with the real numbers -- that's what we need, without any manipulating or misrepresentation.

As for students improving once they got to Wilson, why would they? and why would this be a reflection on the principal or the teachers at Wilson and not on past schools and the kids and the parents themselves?

Not to say the parents are doing something "wrong" but if they can't provide the type of enrichment (educational travel, 2nd language, tutors, music lessons) that some kids get at home, their kids' scores are not going to be as high. It is a fact that college board scores reflect SES. Why wouldn't hs scores? Why would a hs principal be expected to change this?

So we give up on trying to figure out how to make greater gains in closing the achievement gap? Look I think we all know that the reasons for the achievement gap are complicated and extend far beyond what parents do. I've read that even when you compare scores of white students of high SES with black/Latino students of similar economic backgrounds, the gap still exists and persists.

I think it is an important issue for the Wilson community and the new prinicipal to work on. The challenge is making sure the next principal is set up for success.

Who said "give up?" What if part of the answer is that high school is too late to try to close the gap? should we still have the principal and the wilson community "work on it" and then be punished if they "fail."

For instance, let's say a new goal was to increase 2nd language fluency, and ALL the evidence shows that the earlier you start the better and best of all is learning it first at home as a toddler from an educated native speaker. Would we punish hs principals for not bringing 2nd language fluency up to native levels?

What if the principal increased the number of students studying a 2nd language in hs, but still the fluency levels didn't go up -- is it the principal's fault?

What if there happens to be a large number of native speakers of a certain language at the school and they ace the AP courses in that language -- does the principal get the credit?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How could DPCS think a new principal can close the gap when they can't even figure it out themselves.......

I think an important thing to look at is where the students are when they come in and where they are when they leave- do they improve at Wilson?

I do think there is a big push for students of all levels to take AP classes- think of the ridiculous Jay Matthews rankings.

Despite what

The gap was already closing under Cahall -- but apparently DCPS thinks someone else can close it even faster? How's a new principal supposed to do that?

I don't think the gap was closing under Cahall -- but the actual facts can be shown by someone with the real numbers -- that's what we need, without any manipulating or misrepresentation.

As for students improving once they got to Wilson, why would they? and why would this be a reflection on the principal or the teachers at Wilson and not on past schools and the kids and the parents themselves?

Not to say the parents are doing something "wrong" but if they can't provide the type of enrichment (educational travel, 2nd language, tutors, music lessons) that some kids get at home, their kids' scores are not going to be as high. It is a fact that college board scores reflect SES. Why wouldn't hs scores? Why would a hs principal be expected to change this?

So we give up on trying to figure out how to make greater gains in closing the achievement gap? Look I think we all know that the reasons for the achievement gap are complicated and extend far beyond what parents do. I've read that even when you compare scores of white students of high SES with black/Latino students of similar economic backgrounds, the gap still exists and persists.

I think it is an important issue for the Wilson community and the new prinicipal to work on. The challenge is making sure the next principal is set up for success.

then don't expect any principal to narrow the achievement gap or get fired after a few years, as a failure. And beware principals who say they can do it. And beware prospects put forth by DCPS, incl people already working at central office that Kaya has lined up for the job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How could DPCS think a new principal can close the gap when they can't even figure it out themselves.......

I think an important thing to look at is where the students are when they come in and where they are when they leave- do they improve at Wilson?

I do think there is a big push for students of all levels to take AP classes- think of the ridiculous Jay Matthews rankings.

Despite what

The gap was already closing under Cahall -- but apparently DCPS thinks someone else can close it even faster? How's a new principal supposed to do that?

I don't think the gap was closing under Cahall -- but the actual facts can be shown by someone with the real numbers -- that's what we need, without any manipulating or misrepresentation.

As for students improving once they got to Wilson, why would they? and why would this be a reflection on the principal or the teachers at Wilson and not on past schools and the kids and the parents themselves?

Not to say the parents are doing something "wrong" but if they can't provide the type of enrichment (educational travel, 2nd language, tutors, music lessons) that some kids get at home, their kids' scores are not going to be as high. It is a fact that college board scores reflect SES. Why wouldn't hs scores? Why would a hs principal be expected to change this?

So we give up on trying to figure out how to make greater gains in closing the achievement gap? Look I think we all know that the reasons for the achievement gap are complicated and extend far beyond what parents do. I've read that even when you compare scores of white students of high SES with black/Latino students of similar economic backgrounds, the gap still exists and persists.

I think it is an important issue for the Wilson community and the new prinicipal to work on. The challenge is making sure the next principal is set up for success.

then don't expect any principal to narrow the achievement gap or get fired after a few years, as a failure. And beware principals who say they can do it. And beware prospects put forth by DCPS, incl people already working at central office that Kaya has lined up for the job.

Never said this. I personally want to understand what IS possible and have the goals be realistic. No one is talking about what is working in other places - just ready to bail because it is a hard issue to deal with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How could DPCS think a new principal can close the gap when they can't even figure it out themselves.......

I think an important thing to look at is where the students are when they come in and where they are when they leave- do they improve at Wilson?

I do think there is a big push for students of all levels to take AP classes- think of the ridiculous Jay Matthews rankings.

Despite what

The gap was already closing under Cahall -- but apparently DCPS thinks someone else can close it even faster? How's a new principal supposed to do that?

I don't think the gap was closing under Cahall -- but the actual facts can be shown by someone with the real numbers -- that's what we need, without any manipulating or misrepresentation.

As for students improving once they got to Wilson, why would they? and why would this be a reflection on the principal or the teachers at Wilson and not on past schools and the kids and the parents themselves?

Not to say the parents are doing something "wrong" but if they can't provide the type of enrichment (educational travel, 2nd language, tutors, music lessons) that some kids get at home, their kids' scores are not going to be as high. It is a fact that college board scores reflect SES. Why wouldn't hs scores? Why would a hs principal be expected to change this?

So we give up on trying to figure out how to make greater gains in closing the achievement gap? Look I think we all know that the reasons for the achievement gap are complicated and extend far beyond what parents do. I've read that even when you compare scores of white students of high SES with black/Latino students of similar economic backgrounds, the gap still exists and persists.

I think it is an important issue for the Wilson community and the new prinicipal to work on. The challenge is making sure the next principal is set up for success.

then don't expect any principal to narrow the achievement gap or get fired after a few years, as a failure. And beware principals who say they can do it. And beware prospects put forth by DCPS, incl people already working at central office that Kaya has lined up for the job.

Never said this. I personally want to understand what IS possible and have the goals be realistic. No one is talking about what is working in other places - just ready to bail because it is a hard issue to deal with.

Nothing that DCPS has tried since Rhee-Henderson arrived has worked, because their whole scheme has focused on teachers and principals - not students and families. They HAVE to know that at some level their whole plan has been a failure, but no one is getting fired downtown, so they can be in denial. And now that there is such resistance to their brilliant "all choice" (e.g. no neighborhood schools)) system, they are stuck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How could DPCS think a new principal can close the gap when they can't even figure it out themselves.......

I think an important thing to look at is where the students are when they come in and where they are when they leave- do they improve at Wilson?

I do think there is a big push for students of all levels to take AP classes- think of the ridiculous Jay Matthews rankings.

Despite what

The gap was already closing under Cahall -- but apparently DCPS thinks someone else can close it even faster? How's a new principal supposed to do that?

I don't think the gap was closing under Cahall -- but the actual facts can be shown by someone with the real numbers -- that's what we need, without any manipulating or misrepresentation.

As for students improving once they got to Wilson, why would they? and why would this be a reflection on the principal or the teachers at Wilson and not on past schools and the kids and the parents themselves?

Not to say the parents are doing something "wrong" but if they can't provide the type of enrichment (educational travel, 2nd language, tutors, music lessons) that some kids get at home, their kids' scores are not going to be as high. It is a fact that college board scores reflect SES. Why wouldn't hs scores? Why would a hs principal be expected to change this?

So we give up on trying to figure out how to make greater gains in closing the achievement gap? Look I think we all know that the reasons for the achievement gap are complicated and extend far beyond what parents do. I've read that even when you compare scores of white students of high SES with black/Latino students of similar economic backgrounds, the gap still exists and persists.

I think it is an important issue for the Wilson community and the new prinicipal to work on. The challenge is making sure the next principal is set up for success.

then don't expect any principal to narrow the achievement gap or get fired after a few years, as a failure. And beware principals who say they can do it. And beware prospects put forth by DCPS, incl people already working at central office that Kaya has lined up for the job.

Never said this. I personally want to understand what IS possible and have the goals be realistic. No one is talking about what is working in other places - just ready to bail because it is a hard issue to deal with.

Regarding narrowing the achievement gap -- nothing is working in other places. what's required is something that is beyond the school system -- it's improving families economically and socially. It's hard. Schools can be a part of it, but all the highly-effective teachers and million dollar renovations in the world can't change it.

[Anonymous]

The only factor that has been shown to work in any given geographic location is time, combined with rising income level of students' families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The only factor that has been shown to work in any given geographic location is time, combined with rising income level of students' families.

But school reformers can't do anything about that. All they can do is beat up on teachers and principals, so that's what they will continue to do. Anything else would bruise their egos and we can't have that.

I mean it's CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE OF OUR TIME and these young elite heroes went into education instead of investment banking (at least for a while). Facing reality would be so hard and their high intellect allows them to expertly rationalize anything that interferes with their exalted self-image.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only factor that has been shown to work in any given geographic location is time, combined with rising income level of students' families.

But school reformers can't do anything about that. All they can do is beat up on teachers and principals, so that's what they will continue to do. Anything else would bruise their egos and we can't have that.

I mean it's CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE OF OUR TIME and these young elite heroes went into education instead of investment banking (at least for a while). Facing reality would be so hard and their high intellect allows them to expertly rationalize anything that interferes with their exalted self-image.

In the meantime, they can use demographic-dependent test score data to bust an effective principal because he's friends with someone they don't like.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only factor that has been shown to work in any given geographic location is time, combined with rising income level of students' families.

But school reformers can't do anything about that. All they can do is beat up on teachers and principals, so that's what they will continue to do. Anything else would bruise their egos and we can't have that.

I mean it's CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE OF OUR TIME and these young elite heroes went into education instead of investment banking (at least for a while). Facing reality would be so hard and their high intellect allows them to expertly rationalize anything that interferes with their exalted self-image.

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only factor that has been shown to work in any given geographic location is time, combined with rising income level of students' families.

But school reformers can't do anything about that. All they can do is beat up on teachers and principals, so that's what they will continue to do. Anything else would bruise their egos and we can't have that.

I mean it's CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE OF OUR TIME and these young elite heroes went into education instead of investment banking (at least for a while). Facing reality would be so hard and their high intellect allows them to expertly rationalize anything that interferes with their exalted self-image.

In the meantime, they can use demographic-dependent test score data to bust an effective principal because he's friends with someone they don't like.

Are you talking about Cahall? it may have been what happened to him, but keep in mind he did the same sort of thing to a lot of teachers too -- as did other principals - just following orders from downtown and trying to keep their jobs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only factor that has been shown to work in any given geographic location is time, combined with rising income level of students' families.

But school reformers can't do anything about that. All they can do is beat up on teachers and principals, so that's what they will continue to do. Anything else would bruise their egos and we can't have that.

I mean it's CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE OF OUR TIME and these young elite heroes went into education instead of investment banking (at least for a while). Facing reality would be so hard and their high intellect allows them to expertly rationalize anything that interferes with their exalted self-image.

In the meantime, they can use demographic-dependent test score data to bust an effective principal because he's friends with someone they don't like.

ALL test score data is demographic-dependent. If we learned one useful thing about no child left behind, that is it.