How would you compare the a Episcopalian Church with Presbyterian in terms of beliefs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was raised as a Presbyterian. It's a fairly austere Calvinist denomination that arose as a reaction to excesses in the Church of England. Churches tend to be less ornamented or done in Danish modern style. The services have less liturgy than a Catholic or Episcopalian church. A standard Sunday service might consist of a prayer done by a member of the congregation, a hymn or two, time for silent prayer, reciting the Lord's Prayer, and some congregational announcements. The minister giving the sermon selects two passages: one from the Old Testament, and one from the New. These are read, and then a 20-30 minute sermon ensues. Communion is not taken at most services, but it is done a few times per year (the PCUSA requires 5 times, I think). As a PP noted, Protestants generally do not believe in transubstantiation. Presbyterians do technically believe in predestination, but I suspect few harbor that belief today

It's a fairly liberal denomination, with a belief in a right to choose for women. They go back and forth on gay participation in congregational life, but at last have recently agreed to allow gay marriage.

It's a democratic denomination, with no hierarchy (no bishops etc.). Instead, there are representative bodies. Each church belongs to a presbytery, and each presbytery belongs to a synod. The presbyteries and synods send representatives to the General Assembly, which meets annually to discuss matters of policy. In practice, the GA can't agree on most resolutions, so they table them. This gives individual congregations a lot of freedom, so you can generally find a Presbyterian Church you like. When kids are confirmed, they become voting members of the Church, and can vote for the Elders and Deacons who are the governing bodies of the individual churches. As in most churches, the wealthy donors tend to have outsized influence behind the scenes.

I've been a Presbyterian for 25 years, and this is a fairly accurate summary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know much about the Presbyterians, but as somebody who has spent a lot of time in the Episcopal church as an adult only (not born and raised in the church), here's my two cents. I liked that the Episcopals are very similar to the Catholics (at least on paper), with similar services/masses, reading schedule, similar rituals, etc, but increasingly the church is just making stuff up as they go that isn't rooted in scripture or liturgy. I could give many examples, but in my church for example, our priests have rejected the teaching of no sex before marriage. One of the priests said that such a teaching is simply unrealistic in today's world, so there's no need to even talk about it anymore. The Episcopals are very welcoming to all, but the emphasis is on belonging rather than believing in anything. Even among clergy there are very inconsistent beliefs on core liturgy. In my former church, we recited the Nicene Creed, yet one of the priests openly rejects most of what is contained in the Creed. There's no talk whatsoever about sin, yet lots of talk about racial issues, gun control, gay rights, etc. Differing voices have no forum and receive no concern. My takeaway was that the church loved everybody until somebody disagreed, and then all bets were off. The extreme liberalism and stray from scripture has caused about half of Episcopal congregations to break off from the national US church and join the more conservative African churches (called the schism). Attendance in the remaining US churches keeps falling at a rapid rate. Basically, the Episcopal Church is a place where you can believe anything you want and you'll always get a pat on the back no matter what you do, say, or believe. In the end, that wasn't appealing to me and wasn't allowing me to grow either personally or spiritually, so I left the church.

I think this proves that if you're conservative, OP, then the Episcopal church is probably not for you.

You don't even have to be conservative to have an issue with the Episcopal church today. Episcopals have always been a more moderate to liberal Protestant denomination, and even the moderates are breaking away from the national church.

Well, said, and to the first PPs point - those that break away are usually now aligned with the Anglican communion worldwide and now has its own Bishopric and Assembly in the U.S.A. The Episcopal church died after Bishop Shori's term (she was asked to leave after seven years) leaving 300 million in debt caused by her venemous litigation against departing congregations. The Episcopal NY headquarters have had to be sold to pay litigation fees, as well as any unused Episcopal properties in the USA. Membership in the Epis. Church of the USA is down to an all time low since the 60's to only 1.6 M members. The Anglicans have 80 million members worldwide, second only to Catholicisim and the Orthodox Churches, so is the third largest Christian denomination in the world. You will see continued expansionism of Anglicanism in the USA in the the next few decades. Anglicanism picks up the ex-Catholics, the ex-Episcopalians, the former Baptists, and some orthodox evanglistic christians.

I wish pp had done some fact-checking before posting the above. The errors suggest not being very in touch with church events and/or purposely trying to mislead people.

Bishop Schori is still presiding bishop. Her nine term ends in June of 2015. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_Jefferts_Schori

Since she's been in office, church membership has decreased by 12% (not half the congregations, as claimed above). http://www.religionnews.com/2014/09/23/episcopal-churchs-katharine-jefferts-schori-will-seek-re-election/

There is a Bishop Schori hater on DCUM who seems very offended by the Episcopal Church's principled stands on gay people, in particular. The expansion of Anglicanism associated with the schism is, I believe, strongly concentrated in countries that oppress gay people. In the U.S., at least, the incredible velocity of the marriage equality movement attests to rapidly shifting American mores, and the Episcopal Church has been in the forefront of that. Of course, this offends some people, and some of those have moved to Anglican churches or left the Episcopal fold altogether. However, the Episcopal Church stands on the side of love because it's the right thing to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
There is a Bishop Schori hater on DCUM who seems very offended by the Episcopal Church's principled stands on gay people, in particular. The expansion of Anglicanism associated with the schism is, I believe, strongly concentrated in countries that oppress gay people. In the U.S., at least, the incredible velocity of the marriage equality movement attests to rapidly shifting American mores, and the Episcopal Church has been in the forefront of that. Of course, this offends some people, and some of those have moved to Anglican churches or left the Episcopal fold altogether. However, the Episcopal Church stands on the side of love because it's the right thing to do.

To be offended by the church is one thing; to lie and mislead about it is another -- and totally unChristian, no matter what your opinion on gay inclusion is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
There is a Bishop Schori hater on DCUM who seems very offended by the Episcopal Church's principled stands on gay people, in particular. The expansion of Anglicanism associated with the schism is, I believe, strongly concentrated in countries that oppress gay people. In the U.S., at least, the incredible velocity of the marriage equality movement attests to rapidly shifting American mores, and the Episcopal Church has been in the forefront of that. Of course, this offends some people, and some of those have moved to Anglican churches or left the Episcopal fold altogether. However, the Episcopal Church stands on the side of love because it's the right thing to do.

To be offended by the church is one thing; to lie and mislead about it is another -- and totally unChristian, no matter what your opinion on gay inclusion is.

Certainly. (I'm the PP you're quoting.) I was only pointing out that this particular poster seems to have an agenda and thus isn't necessarily a good source for differences between the Episcopal and Presbyterian denominations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
There is a Bishop Schori hater on DCUM who seems very offended by the Episcopal Church's principled stands on gay people, in particular. The expansion of Anglicanism associated with the schism is, I believe, strongly concentrated in countries that oppress gay people. In the U.S., at least, the incredible velocity of the marriage equality movement attests to rapidly shifting American mores, and the Episcopal Church has been in the forefront of that. Of course, this offends some people, and some of those have moved to Anglican churches or left the Episcopal fold altogether. However, the Episcopal Church stands on the side of love because it's the right thing to do.

To be offended by the church is one thing; to lie and mislead about it is another -- and totally unChristian, no matter what your opinion on gay inclusion is.

Certainly. (I'm the PP you're quoting.) I was only pointing out that this particular poster seems to have an agenda and thus isn't necessarily a good source for differences between the Episcopal and Presbyterian denominations.

Agreed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
There is a Bishop Schori hater on DCUM who seems very offended by the Episcopal Church's principled stands on gay people, in particular. The expansion of Anglicanism associated with the schism is, I believe, strongly concentrated in countries that oppress gay people. In the U.S., at least, the incredible velocity of the marriage equality movement attests to rapidly shifting American mores, and the Episcopal Church has been in the forefront of that. Of course, this offends some people, and some of those have moved to Anglican churches or left the Episcopal fold altogether. However, the Episcopal Church stands on the side of love because it's the right thing to do.

To be offended by the church is one thing; to lie and mislead about it is another -- and totally unChristian, no matter what your opinion on gay inclusion is.

There's nothing wrong with a Christian being offended by their views on gay marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
There is a Bishop Schori hater on DCUM who seems very offended by the Episcopal Church's principled stands on gay people, in particular. The expansion of Anglicanism associated with the schism is, I believe, strongly concentrated in countries that oppress gay people. In the U.S., at least, the incredible velocity of the marriage equality movement attests to rapidly shifting American mores, and the Episcopal Church has been in the forefront of that. Of course, this offends some people, and some of those have moved to Anglican churches or left the Episcopal fold altogether. However, the Episcopal Church stands on the side of love because it's the right thing to do.

To be offended by the church is one thing; to lie and mislead about it is another -- and totally unChristian, no matter what your opinion on gay inclusion is.

There's nothing wrong with a Christian being offended by their views on gay marriage.

NO, but it is wrong to lie about about the Bishop's tenure and the extent of parishioner loss in the church. that is the issue. Please to try to obscure it.

[Anonymous]

I was raised as a Presbyterian. It's a fairly austere Calvinist denomination that arose as a reaction to excesses in the Church of England. Churches tend to be less ornamented or done in Danish modern style. The services have less liturgy than a Catholic or Episcopalian church. A standard Sunday service might consist of a prayer done by a member of the congregation, a hymn or two, time for silent prayer, reciting the Lord's Prayer, and some congregational announcements. The minister giving the sermon selects two passages: one from the Old Testament, and one from the New. These are read, and then a 20-30 minute sermon ensues. Communion is not taken at most services, but it is done a few times per year (the PCUSA requires 5 times, I think). As a PP noted, Protestants generally do not believe in transubstantiation. Presbyterians do technically believe in predestination, but I suspect few harbor that belief today

It's a fairly liberal denomination, with a belief in a right to choose for women. They go back and forth on gay participation in congregational life, but at last have recently agreed to allow gay marriage.

It's a democratic denomination, with no hierarchy (no bishops etc.). Instead, there are representative bodies. Each church belongs to a presbytery, and each presbytery belongs to a synod. The presbyteries and synods send representatives to the General Assembly, which meets annually to discuss matters of policy. In practice, the GA can't agree on most resolutions, so they table them. This gives individual congregations a lot of freedom, so you can generally find a Presbyterian Church you like. When kids are confirmed, they become voting members of the Church, and can vote for the Elders and Deacons who are the governing bodies of the individual churches. As in most churches, the wealthy donors tend to have outsized influence behind the scenes.
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INTERESTING. Many things above seems to be off a bit. How long ago were you raised Presbyterian, and in what denomination?? First of all The Presbyterian Church was not born out of a break off the Episcopal or Anglican Church, it was a break of the Roman Catholic Church. It formed in what is now the umbrella of the Reformed Faith.

I would agree that some Churches are less ornate than Roman Catholic or Episcopal, however, some Presbyterian Churches (PCUSA, PCA) and some others may be very close to as ornate or more so. Generally, no statues but they may have many ornate stained glass or even ICONS. One Presbyterian Church that I attend here has over 193 stained glass windows in the church depicting stations of the cross, the life of Christ, Crucifixion, Resurrection and more.

This is the Order of Service or for Lord's Day or Divine Worship that is suggested in the PCUSA. This is laid out in our worship books in the suggested liturgy.

http://www.mapc.com/worship/order-of-worship/

You also mention that Protestants do not believe in transubstantiation, which is true but then you compare it to predestination? They are 2 different things. Presbyterians believe in the Spiritual presence of Christ in the elements. They do not believe in transubstantiation nor con. And regarding predestination, that is a whole other topic.

Presbyterians generally service Holy Communion the first Sunday of every month. And many churches are now serving every Lords Day or during the week.

[Anonymous]

1:14 Why did you bring back this almost four year old thread?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:1:14 Why did you bring back this almost four year old thread?

Probably to try to bury the amount of Catholic threads that keep rightfully popping up but DCUM keeps tattling about those.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:1:14 Why did you bring back this almost four year old thread?

It's been happening all over the board in all kinds of topics. I don't know why.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
There is a Bishop Schori hater on DCUM who seems very offended by the Episcopal Church's principled stands on gay people, in particular. The expansion of Anglicanism associated with the schism is, I believe, strongly concentrated in countries that oppress gay people. In the U.S., at least, the incredible velocity of the marriage equality movement attests to rapidly shifting American mores, and the Episcopal Church has been in the forefront of that. Of course, this offends some people, and some of those have moved to Anglican churches or left the Episcopal fold altogether. However, the Episcopal Church stands on the side of love because it's the right thing to do.

To be offended by the church is one thing; to lie and mislead about it is another -- and totally unChristian, no matter what your opinion on gay inclusion is.

Certainly. (I'm the PP you're quoting.) I was only pointing out that this particular poster seems to have an agenda and thus isn't necessarily a good source for differences between the Episcopal and Presbyterian denominations.

Agreed

NP. Agreed, and in the past, too, I’ve watched this particular anti-Episcopalian pp be extremely misleading on other issues. For example, s/he maintains that the Episcopal Church “stole” the buildings and property of the break-away church, although the courts have tossed that claim out. I’ve also seen him/her post before that church membership is down so much the church will no longer exist in a few years—apparently wishful thinking, and not a little obsessive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1:14 Why did you bring back this almost four year old thread?

Probably to try to bury the amount of Catholic threads that keep rightfully popping up but DCUM keeps tattling about those.

Yes, it’s all about you and your beefs.

Or, more reasonably, why would the self-identified Presbyterian at 9/8 1:14 go to the obvious trouble of posting several paras on theology in order to bury Catholic threads? You can bump a thread with one sentence.

[Anonymous]

Where I live (not DC) there are many different flavors of episcopal to choose from, from very liberal (focused on social justice) to conservative (more evangelical, socially conservative).

My church is somewhat in the middle.

I chose my particular church because of its focus for most on the great commandment, its inclusivity, its very intelligent preaching, intellectual congregation and approach, and its amazing (Anglican Church tradition) music. All of these support me spiritually.

If you’re lucky enough to have multiple episcopal churches nearby, check them all out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know much about the Presbyterians, but as somebody who has spent a lot of time in the Episcopal church as an adult only (not born and raised in the church), here's my two cents. I liked that the Episcopals are very similar to the Catholics (at least on paper), with similar services/masses, reading schedule, similar rituals, etc, but increasingly the church is just making stuff up as they go that isn't rooted in scripture or liturgy. I could give many examples, but in my church for example, our priests have rejected the teaching of no sex before marriage. One of the priests said that such a teaching is simply unrealistic in today's world, so there's no need to even talk about it anymore. The Episcopals are very welcoming to all, but the emphasis is on belonging rather than believing in anything. Even among clergy there are very inconsistent beliefs on core liturgy. In my former church, we recited the Nicene Creed, yet one of the priests openly rejects most of what is contained in the Creed. There's no talk whatsoever about sin, yet lots of talk about racial issues, gun control, gay rights, etc. Differing voices have no forum and receive no concern. My takeaway was that the church loved everybody until somebody disagreed, and then all bets were off. The extreme liberalism and stray from scripture has caused about half of Episcopal congregations to break off from the national US church and join the more conservative African churches (called the schism). Attendance in the remaining US churches keeps falling at a rapid rate. Basically, the Episcopal Church is a place where you can believe anything you want and you'll always get a pat on the back no matter what you do, say, or believe. In the end, that wasn't appealing to me and wasn't allowing me to grow either personally or spiritually, so I left the church.

I think this proves that if you're conservative, OP, then the Episcopal church is probably not for you.

You don't even have to be conservative to have an issue with the Episcopal church today. Episcopals have always been a more moderate to liberal Protestant denomination, and even the moderates are breaking away from the national church.

Well, said, and to the first PPs point - those that break away are usually now aligned with the Anglican communion worldwide and now has its own Bishopric and Assembly in the U.S.A. The Episcopal church died after Bishop Shori's term (she was asked to leave after seven years) leaving 300 million in debt caused by her venemous litigation against departing congregations. The Episcopal NY headquarters have had to be sold to pay litigation fees, as well as any unused Episcopal properties in the USA. Membership in the Epis. Church of the USA is down to an all time low since the 60's to only 1.6 M members. The Anglicans have 80 million members worldwide, second only to Catholicisim and the Orthodox Churches, so is the third largest Christian denomination in the world. You will see continued expansionism of Anglicanism in the USA in the the next few decades. Anglicanism picks up the ex-Catholics, the ex-Episcopalians, the former Baptists, and some orthodox evanglistic christians.

I feel like I would like the Anglican church, but have a hard time getting over the fact that it was formed because a king wanted to get divorced. Also, I don't live in England.