Biglaw / Millenials

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I sit on the prof. development committee of my firm. Over the last few years, there's been a ton of griping there (as well as on boards such as this one) about new associates - how they aren't willing to make the sacrifices we made, think they're all special snowflakes, etc.

As someone who has been through that, I can't help but think they've got it right. What exactly is the value proposition for new associates these days? Spend your 20s accumulating the best possible credentials you can (and paying through the nose for them), work your ass off for 3-6 years at a firm, and then scratch and claw for a new job (at often a 100k paycut) when the wrong partner makes your life unbearable or the firm tells you have to leave?

The problem, in my mind, is not that law firm life is hard - that's a given. It's more that most people don't get anything out of it that justifies the sacrifice demanded. You get paid a lot while you're here, but that paycheck only lasts for a trivial amount of time for most lawyers.

you don't have the support from the spouse anymore. Not many intelligent spouses stay at home and take care of the home front anymore. Not after going to college and graduate school.

[Anonymous]

It is what it is when you make a deal with the devil. What did you expect?

[Anonymous]

I remember in my exit interview I told the hiring partner that I was leaving because I considered my new job more family friendly and he seemed genuinely surprised that I did not think working in BigLaw was family friendly.

Of course, no one there took any paternity leave-- ISTR one partner saying "well if they gave me leave to watch little league games I'd take that, but not to sit around and change diapers."

[Anonymous]

you don't have the support from the spouse anymore. Not many intelligent spouses stay at home and take care of the home front anymore. Not after going to college and graduate school.

Agreed. There is a trend of men and women marrying people of similar educational levels. Who is going to stay home after investing anywhere from 6-9 nears in higher education, especially if there is substantial student loan debt? Realistically, most houses are two income households and it is extremely difficult to support two careers that involve 60+ hours a work a week (especially inflexible work). Workplaces will have to adapt unless they want some serious brain drain and/or lack of commitment that people are bitching about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

you don't have the support from the spouse anymore. Not many intelligent spouses stay at home and take care of the home front anymore. Not after going to college and graduate school.

Agreed. There is a trend of men and women marrying people of similar educational levels. Who is going to stay home after investing anywhere from 6-9 nears in higher education, especially if there is substantial student loan debt? Realistically, most houses are two income households and it is extremely difficult to support two careers that involve 60+ hours a work a week (especially inflexible work). Workplaces will have to adapt unless they want some serious brain drain and/or lack of commitment that people are bitching about.

Again, two working spouses has been going on for the past 30 years, if anything, women's labor participation after having kids has gone down in recent years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Yes, it's been the model that it's been difficult/impossible to make partner. But before, if you were smart, had great credentials, and worked hard, you would be able to find something at the end that was interesting and let you have a middle-class life. You wouldn't have the riches of biglaw partnership - but that was OK.

Now, I see our best associates take their shot at USAOs, DOJ, ACLU, Innocence Project, etc. and miss -- and find themselves more or less adrift as they realize they can't do the work they want to do AND earn enough to live in a city like DC AND have some semblance of a family life. Which I don't think is unreasonable to ask for people as talented as they are.

I don't think this is actually true, the same jobs that were available 10 years ago are still there. If people don't want those options, and only want to work for super selective employers like the USAO or want to work for a nonprofit that pays poorly, that is a function of their choices. [/b]There are far fewer BigLaw associates today than 5 or 10 years ago, so they are competing with a smaller pool now[b]. Yes,government hiring is tight, but that has been pretty much the case for lawyers since Bush took office.

Is it really your position that biglaw contracted but other desirable legal fields did not?

Yes, most in-house legal departments started keeping work in house and now have substantially bigger legal departments than they had 20 years ago.

No question there are more lawyers now, but the increase is mainly lawyers from third tier or lower law schools. Those people have serious problems getting jobs but they are not competing with big law alum. And the pool of big law alum is significantly smaller now.

[Anonymous]

you don't have the support from the spouse anymore. Not many intelligent spouses stay at home and take care of the home front anymore. Not after going to college and graduate school.


Agreed. There is a trend of men and women marrying people of similar educational levels. Who is going to stay home after investing anywhere from 6-9 nears in higher education, especially if there is substantial student loan debt? Realistically, most houses are two income households and it is extremely difficult to support two careers that involve 60+ hours a work a week (especially inflexible work). Workplaces will have to adapt unless they want some serious brain drain and/or lack of commitment that people are bitching about.


Again, two working spouses has been going on for the past 30 years, if anything, women's labor participation after having kids has gone down in recent years.

The women's labor participation after having kids has gone down mainly in families where the one salary not cover childcare. It's less drastic for professionals. The millennial generation has the highest percentage of college educated people in history (and the highest incidence of "assortative mating" where people marry people of similar education levels get married to one another), and compared to 30 years ago, many more women are college educated, and many more have graduate degrees. In fact, more women than men graduate college these days, which certainly was not true 30 years ago. On top of that, they have the highest student loan debt of any generation ever before, which makes leaving the workforce even less of an option. I think for professional families in particular, the millennial generation will demand a lot more in terms of sharing childrearing equally. For people who are in their 30s, I see a lot more dads taking paternity leave.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I disagree that big law is a bad option but agree that millennials are largely useless. I have been at this for a decade or more and always lived within my means, saved money, bought a home, and built some security for my family. It is also a door opening credential if you want to leave.

It actually p*sses me off when I encounter someone like OP describes above. My first job out of college was 24k and these kids are making 160. If I need you to say late or work weekends then do it. There is a line at the door for people that want your job.

I agree that it USED to be a door-opening credential. I just don't think it's the case anymore.

If you've been at it for a decade, you're lucky. Not that you're not also talented, a hard worker, etc. But you've also been in good situations. We all have colleagues that churn through associates - and sometimes the best ones (and in fact the reward for being competent and efficient is getting stuck with these partners). It's a little surprising to me that someone who works in biglaw won't acknowledge the fact that even people that work late and weekends get screwed.

. There were never any guarantees in big law...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I sit on the prof. development committee of my firm. Over the last few years, there's been a ton of griping there (as well as on boards such as this one) about new associates - how they aren't willing to make the sacrifices we made, think they're all special snowflakes, etc.

As someone who has been through that, I can't help but think they've got it right. What exactly is the value proposition for new associates these days? Spend your 20s accumulating the best possible credentials you can (and paying through the nose for them), work your ass off for 3-6 years at a firm, and then scratch and claw for a new job (at often a 100k paycut) when the wrong partner makes your life unbearable or the firm tells you have to leave?

The problem, in my mind, is not that law firm life is hard - that's a given. It's more that most people don't get anything out of it that justifies the sacrifice demanded. You get paid a lot while you're here, but that paycheck only lasts for a trivial amount of time for most lawyers.

you don't have the support from the spouse anymore. Not many intelligent spouses stay at home and take care of the home front anymore. Not after going to college and graduate school.

Seriously,I know a lot of people who fit in the category.

[Anonymous]

It's awful, but associates are more or less fungible and there is a sucker born every second.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

you don't have the support from the spouse anymore. Not many intelligent spouses stay at home and take care of the home front anymore. Not after going to college and graduate school.


Agreed. There is a trend of men and women marrying people of similar educational levels. Who is going to stay home after investing anywhere from 6-9 nears in higher education, especially if there is substantial student loan debt? Realistically, most houses are two income households and it is extremely difficult to support two careers that involve 60+ hours a work a week (especially inflexible work). Workplaces will have to adapt unless they want some serious brain drain and/or lack of commitment that people are bitching about.


Again, two working spouses has been going on for the past 30 years, if anything, women's labor participation after having kids has gone down in recent years.

The women's labor participation after having kids has gone down mainly in families where the one salary not cover childcare. It's less drastic for professionals. The millennial generation has the highest percentage of college educated people in history (and the highest incidence of "assortative mating" where people marry people of similar education levels get married to one another), and compared to 30 years ago, many more women are college educated, and many more have graduate degrees. In fact, more women than men graduate college these days, which certainly was not true 30 years ago. On top of that, they have the highest student loan debt of any generation ever before, which makes leaving the workforce even less of an option. I think for professional families in particular, the millennial generation will demand a lot more in terms of sharing childrearing equally. For people who are in their 30s, I see a lot more dads taking paternity leave.

Women have been graduating from law school in equal or greater numbers of men since the 1990's. None of this is unique to the millennials much as they might like to think.

[Anonymous]

What? I'm at the private school carpool line right now. I'd bet there's not a mom or dad here without a college degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

you don't have the support from the spouse anymore. Not many intelligent spouses stay at home and take care of the home front anymore. Not after going to college and graduate school.

Agreed. There is a trend of men and women marrying people of similar educational levels. Who is going to stay home after investing anywhere from 6-9 nears in higher education, especially if there is substantial student loan debt? Realistically, most houses are two income households and it is extremely difficult to support two careers that involve 60+ hours a work a week (especially inflexible work). Workplaces will have to adapt unless they want some serious brain drain and/or lack of commitment that people are bitching about.

Businessweek had an article that showed women HBS grads had a higher rate of 'staying at home' compared to women who attended less elite b-schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are you just realizing this? That's been the model for the past 20 years.

Longer than that. It was the model when I started work in 1990.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Yes, it's been the model that it's been difficult/impossible to make partner. But before, if you were smart, had great credentials, and worked hard, you would be able to find something at the end that was interesting and let you have a middle-class life. You wouldn't have the riches of biglaw partnership - but that was OK.

Now, I see our best associates take their shot at USAOs, DOJ, ACLU, Innocence Project, etc. and miss -- and find themselves more or less adrift as they realize they can't do the work they want to do AND earn enough to live in a city like DC AND have some semblance of a family life. Which I don't think is unreasonable to ask for people as talented as they are.

What? They don't consider other government legal work or in house?