south African MP - Israel is not an apartheid state

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Except Israel does not occupy Gaza....Gaza is nominally independent -- but Israel is blockading it because the gov't stated position is to import weapons to attack Israel. So, to blame Israel for the conditions in Gaza is not correct -- at least regarding rights. West bank is a stronger argument.

You should probably look up the terms of Israel's disengagement plan for Gaza. There is no way it can rationally be described as providing nominal independence. Israel controlled entry into and access out of Gaza, Israel controlled imports and exports, it controlled natural resources, it restricted access to the sea and airspace, etc. There was restriction after restriction that independent entries don't have. Legally, Israel remained an occupier. Gaza is the perfect representation of Israel's Apartheid situation because it is essentially a bantustan.

Yet, if the people in Gaza were allowed to go anywhere else in the world, they would still not have the same issues that black-skinned people have all over the world. In the zeal to associate the plight of blacks South Africa using the word 'apartheid', that fact has conveniently been forgotten. Nothing anybody says in this forum will not change that, yesteryear, today, tomorrow. That is a fact regardless how anyone chooses to 'color' the word to support their argument.

Boy oh boy, talking about missing the point. The importance of Apartheid was not in how it made people outside of Africa view and treat black South Africans: that was caused by racism and it impacted black people that had nothing to do with South Africa. An American from Mississippi traveling internationally would be treated roughly the same as a black South African. You seem to believe that Apartheid caused racism. I think you have that completely reversed.

Apartheid was a series of legal and political measures and it is those legal and political measures that Israel replicates in many ways. Those legal and political measures have very limited impact on how Gazans are treated outside of Gaza -- they get treated poorly due to general prejudice against Arabs and Muslims -- but effects every moment of their day to day lives.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Except Israel does not occupy Gaza....Gaza is nominally independent -- but Israel is blockading it because the gov't stated position is to import weapons to attack Israel. So, to blame Israel for the conditions in Gaza is not correct -- at least regarding rights. West bank is a stronger argument.

You should probably look up the terms of Israel's disengagement plan for Gaza. There is no way it can rationally be described as providing nominal independence. Israel controlled entry into and access out of Gaza, Israel controlled imports and exports, it controlled natural resources, it restricted access to the sea and airspace, etc. There was restriction after restriction that independent entries don't have. Legally, Israel remained an occupier. Gaza is the perfect representation of Israel's Apartheid situation because it is essentially a bantustan.

Yet, if the people in Gaza were allowed to go anywhere else in the world, they would still not have the same issues that black-skinned people have all over the world. In the zeal to associate the plight of blacks South Africa using the word 'apartheid', that fact has conveniently been forgotten. Nothing anybody says in this forum will not change that, yesteryear, today, tomorrow. That is a fact regardless how anyone chooses to 'color' the word to support their argument.

Boy oh boy, talking about missing the point. The importance of Apartheid was not in how it made people outside of Africa view and treat black South Africans: that was caused by racism and it impacted black people that had nothing to do with South Africa. An American from Mississippi traveling internationally would be treated roughly the same as a black South African. You seem to believe that Apartheid caused racism. I think you have that completely reversed.

Apartheid was a series of legal and political measures and it is those legal and political measures that Israel replicates in many ways. Those legal and political measures have very limited impact on how Gazans are treated outside of Gaza -- they get treated poorly due to general prejudice against Arabs and Muslims -- but effects every moment of their day to day lives.

Respectfully, you haven't a clue about my understanding abut apartheid and my understanding of racism. Racism caused apartheid. As usual, the very ethnic group that has caused the world's problems are also the authorities on racism. Sure, okay. We will agree to disagree. No white person will EVER be an authority or have a full understanding on the ramifications of the impact of racism with black skinned people in the world.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Except Israel does not occupy Gaza....Gaza is nominally independent -- but Israel is blockading it because the gov't stated position is to import weapons to attack Israel. So, to blame Israel for the conditions in Gaza is not correct -- at least regarding rights. West bank is a stronger argument.

You should probably look up the terms of Israel's disengagement plan for Gaza. There is no way it can rationally be described as providing nominal independence. Israel controlled entry into and access out of Gaza, Israel controlled imports and exports, it controlled natural resources, it restricted access to the sea and airspace, etc. There was restriction after restriction that independent entries don't have. Legally, Israel remained an occupier. Gaza is the perfect representation of Israel's Apartheid situation because it is essentially a bantustan.

Yet, if the people in Gaza were allowed to go anywhere else in the world, they would still not have the same issues that black-skinned people have all over the world. In the zeal to associate the plight of blacks South Africa using the word 'apartheid', that fact has conveniently been forgotten. Nothing anybody says in this forum will not change that, yesteryear, today, tomorrow. That is a fact regardless how anyone chooses to 'color' the word to support their argument.

Boy oh boy, talking about missing the point. The importance of Apartheid was not in how it made people outside of Africa view and treat black South Africans: that was caused by racism and it impacted black people that had nothing to do with South Africa. An American from Mississippi traveling internationally would be treated roughly the same as a black South African. You seem to believe that Apartheid caused racism. I think you have that completely reversed.

Apartheid was a series of legal and political measures and it is those legal and political measures that Israel replicates in many ways. Those legal and political measures have very limited impact on how Gazans are treated outside of Gaza -- they get treated poorly due to general prejudice against Arabs and Muslims -- but effects every moment of their day to day lives.

Respectfully, you haven't a clue about my understanding abut apartheid and my understanding of racism. Racism caused apartheid. As usual, the very ethnic group that has caused the world's problems are also the authorities on racism. Sure, okay. We will agree to disagree. No white person will EVER be an authority or have a full understanding on the ramifications of the impact of racism with black skinned people in the world.

We are not talking about racism, but Apartheid. You are confusing two related, but different things. For instance, a similar argument to yours would be that nothing can be called a Holocaust other than what Hitler did to Jews because nobody other than Jews are subject to anti-Semitism worldwide. Moreover, you would argue that nobody other than a Jew -- particularly not non-Jewish white male -- could be authoritative about the Holocaust. I readily concede that I do not have and can never have a full understanding of the ramifications of racism. Similarly, I am unlikely to ever grasp the full realities of anti-Semitism. But, that is not the discussion we are having. We are discussing a legal and political framework that was used in South African and being replicated in Israel and the Occupied Territories.