When you are not the typical member of a religion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are black Jews, Asian Jews, Persian Jews. I think you see these kinds of questioning looks in Reform Judaism, which claims to be welcoming but it's on their terms.

Minority Jew here. This has not been my experience. Actually Reform temples tend to be more diverse bc they are more accepting of interfaith couples an less concerned with whether someone is a "real" Jew. Conservative and orthodox shuls are more interested in putting you in the Jewish box. I was once asked to go up to the bimah for an aliaya at a bar mitzvah at a conservative shul in the Midwest. The rabbi did not think I was Jewish and shook his head at me, as if to say I could not do it. It was mortifying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have this experience-- I am a minority and Jewish (converted-- over 10 years) and my kids are Jewish and biracial (and do not "look" Jewish). We have yet to start Sunday school so we'll see how that goes. I definitely get a second look at synagogues and it does get old. It's interesting what people feel like they can say when they are in a "comfortable" place.

I know what you mean, but it kind of is what it is, you know? I am Jewish, not minority, but I have a very non-Jewish first and last name. So from the Jews I constantly get "are you really Jewish? I mean were you born Jewish?" and from the non-Jews I get "I didn't know you were Jewish!" (And that's sometimes accompanied by a flick of the eyes as they quickly review anything they might have said in the past that could be offensive, which there usually isn't, thankfully.) Of course for me it's not obvious from my appearance so I don't get these responses unless I introduce myself (to Jews at Jewish functions) or it comes up somehow (to non-Jews), but if it's annoying for me, it must be much more so for you.

For what it's worth, there was an AA girl in my Hebrew school class when I was a kid -- I don't know if she was biracial or adopted or if her parents converted, or what. I did once hear a kid tell her she wasn't really Jewish, or didn't look Jewish, and the teacher shut that down fast. No one ever said anything like that again and as far as I could tell she participated as fully as any other kid. (Which wasn't much, since we all hated Hebrew school and resented having to be there, but that's another battle ...)

I was at a synagogue (in DC) where the leader of the young adults group had a Spanish last name. He did a reading (Hebrew) at a holiday service. An old lady came up to him after and said "wow, I can't believe someone with a name like that could speak Hebrew so well." I was standing next to him so I heard it. You want to know how minorities get an "outsider" perspective? This is how.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have this experience-- I am a minority and Jewish (converted-- over 10 years) and my kids are Jewish and biracial (and do not "look" Jewish). We have yet to start Sunday school so we'll see how that goes. I definitely get a second look at synagogues and it does get old. It's interesting what people feel like they can say when they are in a "comfortable" place.

I know what you mean, but it kind of is what it is, you know? I am Jewish, not minority, but I have a very non-Jewish first and last name. So from the Jews I constantly get "are you really Jewish? I mean were you born Jewish?" and from the non-Jews I get "I didn't know you were Jewish!" (And that's sometimes accompanied by a flick of the eyes as they quickly review anything they might have said in the past that could be offensive, which there usually isn't, thankfully.) Of course for me it's not obvious from my appearance so I don't get these responses unless I introduce myself (to Jews at Jewish functions) or it comes up somehow (to non-Jews), but if it's annoying for me, it must be much more so for you.

For what it's worth, there was an AA girl in my Hebrew school class when I was a kid -- I don't know if she was biracial or adopted or if her parents converted, or what. I did once hear a kid tell her she wasn't really Jewish, or didn't look Jewish, and the teacher shut that down fast. No one ever said anything like that again and as far as I could tell she participated as fully as any other kid. (Which wasn't much, since we all hated Hebrew school and resented having to be there, but that's another battle ...)

I was at a synagogue (in DC) where the leader of the young adults group had a Spanish last name. He did a reading (Hebrew) at a holiday service. An old lady came up to him after and said "wow, I can't believe someone with a name like that could speak Hebrew so well." I was standing next to him so I heard it. You want to know how minorities get an "outsider" perspective? This is how.

Sometimes you wonder if people have a filter...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have this experience-- I am a minority and Jewish (converted-- over 10 years) and my kids are Jewish and biracial (and do not "look" Jewish). We have yet to start Sunday school so we'll see how that goes. I definitely get a second look at synagogues and it does get old. It's interesting what people feel like they can say when they are in a "comfortable" place.

I know what you mean, but it kind of is what it is, you know? I am Jewish, not minority, but I have a very non-Jewish first and last name. So from the Jews I constantly get "are you really Jewish? I mean were you born Jewish?" and from the non-Jews I get "I didn't know you were Jewish!" (And that's sometimes accompanied by a flick of the eyes as they quickly review anything they might have said in the past that could be offensive, which there usually isn't, thankfully.) Of course for me it's not obvious from my appearance so I don't get these responses unless I introduce myself (to Jews at Jewish functions) or it comes up somehow (to non-Jews), but if it's annoying for me, it must be much more so for you.

For what it's worth, there was an AA girl in my Hebrew school class when I was a kid -- I don't know if she was biracial or adopted or if her parents converted, or what. I did once hear a kid tell her she wasn't really Jewish, or didn't look Jewish, and the teacher shut that down fast. No one ever said anything like that again and as far as I could tell she participated as fully as any other kid. (Which wasn't much, since we all hated Hebrew school and resented having to be there, but that's another battle ...)

I was at a synagogue (in DC) where the leader of the young adults group had a Spanish last name. He did a reading (Hebrew) at a holiday service. An old lady came up to him after and said "wow, I can't believe someone with a name like that could speak Hebrew so well." I was standing next to him so I heard it. You want to know how minorities get an "outsider" perspective? This is how.

Sometimes you wonder if people have a filter...

She meant it as a compliment. If only shows how sheltered she's been - not that she's an insensitive bigot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have this experience-- I am a minority and Jewish (converted-- over 10 years) and my kids are Jewish and biracial (and do not "look" Jewish). We have yet to start Sunday school so we'll see how that goes. I definitely get a second look at synagogues and it does get old. It's interesting what people feel like they can say when they are in a "comfortable" place.

I know what you mean, but it kind of is what it is, you know? I am Jewish, not minority, but I have a very non-Jewish first and last name. So from the Jews I constantly get "are you really Jewish? I mean were you born Jewish?" and from the non-Jews I get "I didn't know you were Jewish!" (And that's sometimes accompanied by a flick of the eyes as they quickly review anything they might have said in the past that could be offensive, which there usually isn't, thankfully.) Of course for me it's not obvious from my appearance so I don't get these responses unless I introduce myself (to Jews at Jewish functions) or it comes up somehow (to non-Jews), but if it's annoying for me, it must be much more so for you.

For what it's worth, there was an AA girl in my Hebrew school class when I was a kid -- I don't know if she was biracial or adopted or if her parents converted, or what. I did once hear a kid tell her she wasn't really Jewish, or didn't look Jewish, and the teacher shut that down fast. No one ever said anything like that again and as far as I could tell she participated as fully as any other kid. (Which wasn't much, since we all hated Hebrew school and resented having to be there, but that's another battle ...)

I was at a synagogue (in DC) where the leader of the young adults group had a Spanish last name. He did a reading (Hebrew) at a holiday service. An old lady came up to him after and said "wow, I can't believe someone with a name like that could speak Hebrew so well." I was standing next to him so I heard it. You want to know how minorities get an "outsider" perspective? This is how.

Sometimes you wonder if people have a filter...

She meant it as a compliment. If only shows how sheltered she's been - not that she's an insensitive bigot.

But is that like telling a black person that he is articulate?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are black Jews, Asian Jews, Persian Jews. I think you see these kinds of questioning looks in Reform Judaism, which claims to be welcoming but it's on their terms.

Minority Jew here. This has not been my experience. Actually Reform temples tend to be more diverse bc they are more accepting of interfaith couples an less concerned with whether someone is a "real" Jew. Conservative and orthodox shuls are more interested in putting you in the Jewish box. I was once asked to go up to the bimah for an aliaya at a bar mitzvah at a conservative shul in the Midwest. The rabbi did not think I was Jewish and shook his head at me, as if to say I could not do it. It was mortifying.

So then what happened? did you leave the bimah? Did others stand up for you? did you stand up for yourself? How did the Rabbi respond besides shaking his head at you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not my situation, but if it were, I'd think of it as consciousness raising -- teaching people something they didn't - but should - know about their religion.
Diversity is something people are faced with more and more these days. It's about time they recognize it in religion too.

Don't think of it as discrimination - just ignorance - and the next time it happens, inform them of what your religion is. Otherwise, you're passively contributing the the ignorance yourself.

OP here, I don't want this role for my kids.

Totally understandable, but op, I think you need to keep your eye on the prize here. Presumably you want your children to have a religious identity with this religion they don't look like they belong to. Right? If so then you need to show them that their religion accepts them by standing up to narrow minded people as the Hebrew school teacher did for the biracial students in an earlier post. Don't think if it as educating the masses. It's you advocating for your children. If you don't teach them that they belong by finding them/making them a community that accepts them, they will reject the religion as they age. Maybe you want that andaybe you don't but you need to keep in mind that THAT is what's at stake here. These people are threatening your family's religious future with every thoughtless comment. Would you stand for such discrimination in an educational setting if your kids, say, didn't look like they'd belong in advanced math classes? Of course not.

Your job is not to educate people. It's to advocate for your children. What do you want for them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:I don't think there should be a "typical look'' for a religion. However, as you have noticed a lot of people like to judge and discriminate based on how you look or what they think you should look/do. You should just ignore them and teach your kids that they are an integral part of that faith and make them feel as comfortable as can be so that they grow up with a tough skin and feeling part of the religion even if they look "different", or maybe find other members who look like them so they don't feel so alone

Christians and muslims come in just about any ethnicity because of their long history of converting people through proselytizing or conquest. Religions that haven’t actively engaged in those kinds of conversion techniques though the centuries don't have much ethnic diversity, so of course members of those religions are surprised to see people with the same beliefs who look different. I wouldn't call it discrimination, just surprise.

This exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:I don't think there should be a "typical look'' for a religion. However, as you have noticed a lot of people like to judge and discriminate based on how you look or what they think you should look/do. You should just ignore them and teach your kids that they are an integral part of that faith and make them feel as comfortable as can be so that they grow up with a tough skin and feeling part of the religion even if they look "different", or maybe find other members who look like them so they don't feel so alone

Christians and muslims come in just about any ethnicity because of their long history of converting people through proselytizing or conquest. Religions that haven’t actively engaged in those kinds of conversion techniques though the centuries don't have much ethnic diversity, so of course members of those religions are surprised to see people with the same beliefs who look different. I wouldn't call it discrimination, just surprise.

But there is a lot of diversity among Jews, even in the non convert crowd. Here in the US, the garden variety Jewish person is Ashkenazi, and has a particular look but there are Jews in Asia and Africa who look very different. American Jews need to get out a bit.
Mormons are always looking for a convert so they will try to suck any ethnicity in. They might not assume that you are Mormon if you are black, but they will not necessarily assume that a white person is Mormon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:I don't think there should be a "typical look'' for a religion. However, as you have noticed a lot of people like to judge and discriminate based on how you look or what they think you should look/do. You should just ignore them and teach your kids that they are an integral part of that faith and make them feel as comfortable as can be so that they grow up with a tough skin and feeling part of the religion even if they look "different", or maybe find other members who look like them so they don't feel so alone

Christians and muslims come in just about any ethnicity because of their long history of converting people through proselytizing or conquest. Religions that haven’t actively engaged in those kinds of conversion techniques though the centuries don't have much ethnic diversity, so of course members of those religions are surprised to see people with the same beliefs who look different. I wouldn't call it discrimination, just surprise.

But there is a lot of diversity among Jews, even in the non convert crowd. Here in the US, the garden variety Jewish person is Ashkenazi, and has a particular look but there are Jews in Asia and Africa who look very different. American Jews need to get out a bit.
Mormons are always looking for a convert so they will try to suck any ethnicity in. They might not assume that you are Mormon if you are black, but they will not necessarily assume that a white person is Mormon.

In utah they would, because most people there are Mormon. elsewhere they are a very small percentage of people and tend to be white.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have this experience-- I am a minority and Jewish (converted-- over 10 years) and my kids are Jewish and biracial (and do not "look" Jewish). We have yet to start Sunday school so we'll see how that goes. I definitely get a second look at synagogues and it does get old. It's interesting what people feel like they can say when they are in a "comfortable" place.

I know what you mean, but it kind of is what it is, you know? I am Jewish, not minority, but I have a very non-Jewish first and last name. So from the Jews I constantly get "are you really Jewish? I mean were you born Jewish?" and from the non-Jews I get "I didn't know you were Jewish!" (And that's sometimes accompanied by a flick of the eyes as they quickly review anything they might have said in the past that could be offensive, which there usually isn't, thankfully.) Of course for me it's not obvious from my appearance so I don't get these responses unless I introduce myself (to Jews at Jewish functions) or it comes up somehow (to non-Jews), but if it's annoying for me, it must be much more so for you.

For what it's worth, there was an AA girl in my Hebrew school class when I was a kid -- I don't know if she was biracial or adopted or if her parents converted, or what. I did once hear a kid tell her she wasn't really Jewish, or didn't look Jewish, and the teacher shut that down fast. No one ever said anything like that again and as far as I could tell she participated as fully as any other kid. (Which wasn't much, since we all hated Hebrew school and resented having to be there, but that's another battle ...)

I was at a synagogue (in DC) where the leader of the young adults group had a Spanish last name. He did a reading (Hebrew) at a holiday service. An old lady came up to him after and said "wow, I can't believe someone with a name like that could speak Hebrew so well." I was standing next to him so I heard it. You want to know how minorities get an "outsider" perspective? This is how.

Sometimes you wonder if people have a filter...

She meant it as a compliment. If only shows how sheltered she's been - not that she's an insensitive bigot.

But is that like telling a black person that he is articulate?

It's like not being PC enough to know that you can only tell white people when they're being especially articulate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not my situation, but if it were, I'd think of it as consciousness raising -- teaching people something they didn't - but should - know about their religion.
Diversity is something people are faced with more and more these days. It's about time they recognize it in religion too.

Don't think of it as discrimination - just ignorance - and the next time it happens, inform them of what your religion is. Otherwise, you're passively contributing the the ignorance yourself.

OP here, I don't want this role for my kids.

Totally understandable, but op, I think you need to keep your eye on the prize here. Presumably you want your children to have a religious identity with this religion they don't look like they belong to. Right? If so then you need to show them that their religion accepts them by standing up to narrow minded people as the Hebrew school teacher did for the biracial students in an earlier post. Don't think if it as educating the masses. It's you advocating for your children. If you don't teach them that they belong by finding them/making them a community that accepts them, they will reject the religion as they age. Maybe you want that andaybe you don't but you need to keep in mind that THAT is what's at stake here. These people are threatening your family's religious future with every thoughtless comment. Would you stand for such discrimination in an educational setting if your kids, say, didn't look like they'd belong in advanced math classes? Of course not.

Your job is not to educate people. It's to advocate for your children. What do you want for them?

This makes sense to me, but I wonder if anything will satisfy OP - besides people just acting the way she thinks they should act without any input.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not my situation, but if it were, I'd think of it as consciousness raising -- teaching people something they didn't - but should - know about their religion.
Diversity is something people are faced with more and more these days. It's about time they recognize it in religion too.

Don't think of it as discrimination - just ignorance - and the next time it happens, inform them of what your religion is. Otherwise, you're passively contributing the the ignorance yourself.

OP here, I don't want this role for my kids.

Totally understandable, but op, I think you need to keep your eye on the prize here. Presumably you want your children to have a religious identity with this religion they don't look like they belong to. Right? If so then you need to show them that their religion accepts them by standing up to narrow minded people as the Hebrew school teacher did for the biracial students in an earlier post. Don't think if it as educating the masses. It's you advocating for your children. If you don't teach them that they belong by finding them/making them a community that accepts them, they will reject the religion as they age. Maybe you want that andaybe you don't but you need to keep in mind that THAT is what's at stake here. These people are threatening your family's religious future with every thoughtless comment. Would you stand for such discrimination in an educational setting if your kids, say, didn't look like they'd belong in advanced math classes? Of course not.

Your job is not to educate people. It's to advocate for your children. What do you want for them?

This makes sense to me, but I wonder if anything will satisfy OP - besides people just acting the way she thinks they should act without any input.

Well, I think if you are Jewish, Mormon, or any religion that you assume has a look, OPEN YOUR MINDS!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not my situation, but if it were, I'd think of it as consciousness raising -- teaching people something they didn't - but should - know about their religion.
Diversity is something people are faced with more and more these days. It's about time they recognize it in religion too.

Don't think of it as discrimination - just ignorance - and the next time it happens, inform them of what your religion is. Otherwise, you're passively contributing the the ignorance yourself.

OP here, I don't want this role for my kids.

Totally understandable, but op, I think you need to keep your eye on the prize here. Presumably you want your children to have a religious identity with this religion they don't look like they belong to. Right? If so then you need to show them that their religion accepts them by standing up to narrow minded people as the Hebrew school teacher did for the biracial students in an earlier post. Don't think if it as educating the masses. It's you advocating for your children. If you don't teach them that they belong by finding them/making them a community that accepts them, they will reject the religion as they age. Maybe you want that andaybe you don't but you need to keep in mind that THAT is what's at stake here. These people are threatening your family's religious future with every thoughtless comment. Would you stand for such discrimination in an educational setting if your kids, say, didn't look like they'd belong in advanced math classes? Of course not.

Your job is not to educate people. It's to advocate for your children. What do you want for them?

This makes sense to me, but I wonder if anything will satisfy OP - besides people just acting the way she thinks they should act without any input.

Well, I think if you are Jewish, Mormon, or any religion that you assume has a look, OPEN YOUR MINDS!

Yeah, it's really hard to tell who is a member of your tribe these days. so much mixing. But God is letting it happen, so perhaps it's part of his divine plan.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:I don't think there should be a "typical look'' for a religion. However, as you have noticed a lot of people like to judge and discriminate based on how you look or what they think you should look/do. You should just ignore them and teach your kids that they are an integral part of that faith and make them feel as comfortable as can be so that they grow up with a tough skin and feeling part of the religion even if they look "different", or maybe find other members who look like them so they don't feel so alone

Christians and muslims come in just about any ethnicity because of their long history of converting people through proselytizing or conquest. Religions that haven’t actively engaged in those kinds of conversion techniques though the centuries don't have much ethnic diversity, so of course members of those religions are surprised to see people with the same beliefs who look different. I wouldn't call it discrimination, just surprise.

But there is a lot of diversity among Jews, even in the non convert crowd. Here in the US, the garden variety Jewish person is Ashkenazi, and has a particular look but there are Jews in Asia and Africa who look very different. American Jews need to get out a bit.
Mormons are always looking for a convert so they will try to suck any ethnicity in. They might not assume that you are Mormon if you are black, but they will not necessarily assume that a white person is Mormon.

Sure, but as you say, most Jews in the US are Ashkenazi and therefore are white, and have a particular look. So that's what people are used to (both Jews and non-Jews) and that's what OP is encountering. I think this may change as young families, who are used to more diversity, grow older. But I can tell you that if my stereotypically Ashkenazi Jewish grandparents saw a person of color at a shul, they would assume the person is not Jewish. And upon learning that the person was Jewish, they would be absolutely astonished. And would probably bring it up at every conversation for the next year, in mingled bewilderment and delight.