let's have Middle Schools start at 6th grade -- BASIS, Latin, Cap City, etc. realign

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wouldn't the whole system be stronger if all Middle School opportunities started at 6th grade?

Students finished 5th in their elementary school (be it charter or DCPS), and then lotteried in rank order for preferred 6th grade placement, intermingling charter & DCPS

None of the DCPS schools were "education campuses" from preS to 8, instead all ended at 5th grade.

Then, there would also be students available to support an additional Ward 4 / Ward 5 DCPS middle school (the new building at Brookland, maybe a reopened Ward 4 MacFarland). And to fill the underpopulated Middle schools at McKinley Tech, Eliot-Hine, Jefferson.

What's wrong with this suggestions, what's right with it?

On the contrary, DCPS would be stronger if MS started in 5th. DCPS is better at ES. Even Kaya admits this. By 5th grade, bright kids at most DCPS ESs are learning very little.

Furthermore, many DC kids are simply not ready for K when they turn five, and it is unclear that intervention at that point will catch them up. Instead, DCPS should intervene early.

DCPS should eliminate 5th grade from all of its ESs to make space for more Pre-K and PS classes.

[Anonymous]

The idea of moving 5th grade to middle school to create more early childhood classes does not come from someone who has middle school age children. It wasn't that long ago that DCPS moved 6th grade out to elementary schools and it was very controversial because many 6th graders are developmentally just not yet middle schoolers. Entering any 6th grade classroom, you'll see amazing disparities and wonder in amazement whey some are even in middle school. Talk to almost any 5th grade parent at Basis or Latin and they'll tell you the same story: kids having a hard time organizing and keeping on top of anything that's not from today until tomorrow. It's not because these kids are coddled or don't get it. It's because their brains aren't working that way yet. I swear I could point my finger to the day that "clicked" in my then 5th grader, it was in about February, just happened over night. At 5th grade, most are not there. At 6th grade most are. Although you'll see outliers on both ends, it makes much more sense to me to suit the majority and err on the side of elementary school for the rest. You can't make grass grow by pulling on it, as a friend once said to me. Same goes for high school, same for college. All you do is put kids in shoes that are too big for them all their lives. Why? I ask you, why? Their feet won't grow any faster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:On the contrary, DCPS would be stronger if MS started in 5th. DCPS is better at ES. Even Kaya admits this. By 5th grade, bright kids at most DCPS ESs are learning very little.

Furthermore, many DC kids are simply not ready for K when they turn five, and it is unclear that intervention at that point will catch them up. Instead, DCPS should intervene early.

DCPS should eliminate 5th grade from all of its ESs to make space for more Pre-K and PS classes.

That smacks of a lack of reasoning: Because elementary schools are better at preparing children they should go to middle school earlier?! Odd, just odd.

My MIL used to be a middle school teacher before she retired (teaching Latin at a well regarded private Quaker school). She said this to me: "Middle school is getting children safely from here to there. If they learn something along the way, good."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The idea of moving 5th grade to middle school to create more early childhood classes does not come from someone who has middle school age children. It wasn't that long ago that DCPS moved 6th grade out to elementary schools and it was very controversial because many 6th graders are developmentally just not yet middle schoolers. Entering any 6th grade classroom, you'll see amazing disparities and wonder in amazement whey some are even in middle school. Talk to almost any 5th grade parent at Basis or Latin and they'll tell you the same story: kids having a hard time organizing and keeping on top of anything that's not from today until tomorrow. It's not because these kids are coddled or don't get it. It's because their brains aren't working that way yet. I swear I could point my finger to the day that "clicked" in my then 5th grader, it was in about February, just happened over night. At 5th grade, most are not there. At 6th grade most are. Although you'll see outliers on both ends, it makes much more sense to me to suit the majority and err on the side of elementary school for the rest. You can't make grass grow by pulling on it, as a friend once said to me. Same goes for high school, same for college. All you do is put kids in shoes that are too big for them all their lives. Why? I ask you, why? Their feet won't grow any faster.

Not true, PP. Pulled my oldest out of a JKLM and enrolled DC in one of those charters that started in 5th, where DC thrived.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The idea of moving 5th grade to middle school to create more early childhood classes does not come from someone who has middle school age children. It wasn't that long ago that DCPS moved 6th grade out to elementary schools and it was very controversial because many 6th graders are developmentally just not yet middle schoolers. Entering any 6th grade classroom, you'll see amazing disparities and wonder in amazement whey some are even in middle school. Talk to almost any 5th grade parent at Basis or Latin and they'll tell you the same story: kids having a hard time organizing and keeping on top of anything that's not from today until tomorrow. It's not because these kids are coddled or don't get it. It's because their brains aren't working that way yet. I swear I could point my finger to the day that "clicked" in my then 5th grader, it was in about February, just happened over night. At 5th grade, most are not there. At 6th grade most are. Although you'll see outliers on both ends, it makes much more sense to me to suit the majority and err on the side of elementary school for the rest. You can't make grass grow by pulling on it, as a friend once said to me. Same goes for high school, same for college. All you do is put kids in shoes that are too big for them all their lives. Why? I ask you, why? Their feet won't grow any faster.

Disagree entirely. At least at Latin, the administration and faculty have a very good handle on the5th and 6th grade developmental stage and the disparity among individuals as they mature. Yes, the students are being asked to take on more personal responsibility and learn organizational skills but it is done with dignity and compassion and humor. How is one to learn these skills anyway if not asked to take them on and then given support to reach the goals?

[Anonymous]

This thread appears to stem from CHPSPO talking points. Sounds great if your child attends Watkins and other Stuart-Hobson feeders. Not so great if your middle school sucks.

[Anonymous]

Just want to add that all those families from around the city who attend Stuart Hobson OOB do it exactly for the same reasons that we are discussing--an academically solid student body. Those parents would also never consider EH or Jefferson. It is just so disingenuous to paint Brent parents a certain way when they hold the same thoughts as parents across the entire city. The only reason they stand out is people ( like the author of this thread ) and DCPS keep ASKING them what it would take to have them choose a middle school. Then they get beat up for answering. It is obvious what it would take by watching what they have chosen.

[Anonymous]

Wrong thread. Meant this for a different one. Will copy there.

[Anonymous]

I agree with the idea that Middle School grades should be aligned across the system. If kids are peeling off from DCPS ES to go to good charters, perhaps all the ES should stop at 4th grade. Or else, all middle schools should start at 6th grade.

The problem with the current system is that motivated parents are the ones who pull their students out of DCPS for charters in 5th grade, because of the lack of good DCPS middle school alternatives and the impossibility of getting into good charters at later grades. This makes the DCPS 5th grade population much smaller. This trend will just accelerate over time resulting in clearly under-populated 5th grades in ES that have no good MS to feed into.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree with the idea that Middle School grades should be aligned across the system. If kids are peeling off from DCPS ES to go to good charters, perhaps all the ES should stop at 4th grade. Or else, all middle schools should start at 6th grade.

The problem with the current system is that motivated parents are the ones who pull their students out of DCPS for charters in 5th grade, because of the lack of good DCPS middle school alternatives and the impossibility of getting into good charters at later grades. This makes the DCPS 5th grade population much smaller. This trend will just accelerate over time resulting in clearly under-populated 5th grades in ES that have no good MS to feed into.

If a DCPS-DCPCS standard were to be established, then starting MS at 5th grade is the better of the two options as it creates space in DCPS ESs for more Pre-K and PS classes.

However, an argument can be made for maintaining the status quo, despite the under-populated 5th grades in ESs that feed bad MSs. The current system gives families leaving DCPS for charter MSs an additional year to get into a desirable school. If they do poorly in the lottery for a 5th grade spot, they can stay at their ES and try again for a 6th grade spot. Switching to an undesirable MS for 5th only to leave for a desirable one for 6th would undoubtedly take its toll.

[Anonymous]

The Mayor is not going to support the proposed realignment. None of the other candidates would as well. Non starter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree with the idea that Middle School grades should be aligned across the system. If kids are peeling off from DCPS ES to go to good charters, perhaps all the ES should stop at 4th grade. Or else, all middle schools should start at 6th grade.

The problem with the current system is that motivated parents are the ones who pull their students out of DCPS for charters in 5th grade, because of the lack of good DCPS middle school alternatives and the impossibility of getting into good charters at later grades. This makes the DCPS 5th grade population much smaller. This trend will just accelerate over time resulting in clearly under-populated 5th grades in ES that have no good MS to feed into.

I don't agree, at least not with every EotP DCPS 5th grade. What you're seeing now in great swathes of the city are affluent parents of little kids who are trying DCPS for elementary when they probably wouldn't have even five years ago. With seven or eight years of nearly free DCPS under our belts, some of us will have the cash flow for private middle schools. Alternatively, we will rent in the burbs for middle school and high school, returning to District homes we own as empty nesters.

People like us are going to want to stick around for 5th grade, particularly on the Hill at Brent, Maury, SWS, Tyler SI etc. I'd wager that, within two or three years, you're going see a higher percentage of 5th graders staying at Brent for the reasons mentioned, even if the MS feed hasn't been sorted out. You won't get more than a small class worth of families to stay, but you will no longer see principals calling around begging for OOB 5th graders to come either. This was the case with JKLM schools before Deal began to improve dramatically 5 or 6 years ago.

More kids will also be hanging around for 5th because they lack lottery luck at Latin and aren't cut out for BASIS. Also, the big new DCI school at Walter Reed will start with 6th, and some Hill kids are going to lottery in, particularly Tyler SI students. Also, Stuart Hobson is improving, not dramatically or quickly, but they are offering honors classes for the first time, which will tempt more DCPS Hill parents to head there for 6th.

All told, I'm far from convinced that DCPS 5th grades EotP are a dying breed.

[Anonymous]

Excellent points. I already know of 5 DCPS parents of 4th graders who plan a two step process of playing charter lotteries for 5th. If no luck there, stay at current DCPS for 5th and then head out of the city.