What constitutes a 'bad school'?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://www.greatschools.org/

This is a terrible resource, actually, OP. Skip it.

why? It uses test scores and will give you insight into the demographic and FARM rates of each school.

Because FARMS rates and test scores do not give you a complete or, truth be told, picture.
It just tells you how well the kids test and how many of them are poor.
As a parent I want more information than that, but hey maybe that is just me.

I agree that it's a terrible resource. If you just want a school that is teaching to the tests, then maybe it's a good one...but for someone who actually wants to know about whether a school has an active PTA, a community feel, administrators who are warm, approachable, and respected by parents and teachers, etc--it's a terrible resource.

yea...this

I disagree, you want to take both into account. I guarantee that most of the high scoring schools have the above items you are looking for. If the school scores low you would need to dig deeper and do the ground work to determine if it is good or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://www.greatschools.org/

This is a terrible resource, actually, OP. Skip it.

why? It uses test scores and will give you insight into the demographic and FARM rates of each school.

Because FARMS rates and test scores do not give you a complete or, truth be told, picture.
It just tells you how well the kids test and how many of them are poor.
As a parent I want more information than that, but hey maybe that is just me.

I agree that it's a terrible resource. If you just want a school that is teaching to the tests, then maybe it's a good one...but for someone who actually wants to know about whether a school has an active PTA, a community feel, administrators who are warm, approachable, and respected by parents and teachers, etc--it's a terrible resource.

yea...this

I disagree, you want to take both into account. I guarantee that most of the high scoring schools have the above items you are looking for. If the school scores low you would need to dig deeper and do the ground work to determine if it is good or not.

I am sorry but that is just a bad assumption -- rather not bright actually. How in the heck are test scores going to tell you that the administrators are "warm, approachable," are they testing for that and the scores are listed?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://www.greatschools.org/

This is a terrible resource, actually, OP. Skip it.

why? It uses test scores and will give you insight into the demographic and FARM rates of each school.

Because FARMS rates and test scores do not give you a complete or, truth be told, picture.
It just tells you how well the kids test and how many of them are poor.
As a parent I want more information than that, but hey maybe that is just me.

I agree that it's a terrible resource. If you just want a school that is teaching to the tests, then maybe it's a good one...but for someone who actually wants to know about whether a school has an active PTA, a community feel, administrators who are warm, approachable, and respected by parents and teachers, etc--it's a terrible resource.

yea...this

I disagree, you want to take both into account. I guarantee that most of the high scoring schools have the above items you are looking for. If the school scores low you would need to dig deeper and do the ground work to determine if it is good or not.

What you do is dig into ANY school you are considering -- period.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://www.greatschools.org/

This is a terrible resource, actually, OP. Skip it.

why? It uses test scores and will give you insight into the demographic and FARM rates of each school.

Because FARMS rates and test scores do not give you a complete or, truth be told, picture.
It just tells you how well the kids test and how many of them are poor.
As a parent I want more information than that, but hey maybe that is just me.

I agree that it's a terrible resource. If you just want a school that is teaching to the tests, then maybe it's a good one...but for someone who actually wants to know about whether a school has an active PTA, a community feel, administrators who are warm, approachable, and respected by parents and teachers, etc--it's a terrible resource.

yea...this

I disagree, you want to take both into account. I guarantee that most of the high scoring schools have the above items you are looking for. If the school scores low you would need to dig deeper and do the ground work to determine if it is good or not.

I am sorry but that is just a bad assumption -- rather not bright actually. How in the heck are test scores going to tell you that the administrators are "warm, approachable," are they testing for that and the scores are listed?

Studies have shown that schools that are highly rated have good teacher, administrators and staff.

Show me a school with a high score and give me evidence that the teachers are bad or terrible.

Get over your testing phobia, as the Education Secretary laid out in plain language with no BS "white suburban moms who -- all of a sudden -- (discovered that) their child isn't as bright as they thought they were, and their school isn't quite as good as they thought they were."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://www.greatschools.org/

This is a terrible resource, actually, OP. Skip it.

why? It uses test scores and will give you insight into the demographic and FARM rates of each school.

Because FARMS rates and test scores do not give you a complete or, truth be told, picture.
It just tells you how well the kids test and how many of them are poor.
As a parent I want more information than that, but hey maybe that is just me.

I agree that it's a terrible resource. If you just want a school that is teaching to the tests, then maybe it's a good one...but for someone who actually wants to know about whether a school has an active PTA, a community feel, administrators who are warm, approachable, and respected by parents and teachers, etc--it's a terrible resource.

yea...this

I disagree, you want to take both into account. I guarantee that most of the high scoring schools have the above items you are looking for. If the school scores low you would need to dig deeper and do the ground work to determine if it is good or not.

I am sorry but that is just a bad assumption -- rather not bright actually. How in the heck are test scores going to tell you that the administrators are "warm, approachable," are they testing for that and the scores are listed?

Studies have shown that schools that are highly rated have good teacher, administrators and staff.

Show me a school with a high score and give me evidence that the teachers are bad or terrible.

Get over your testing phobia, as the Education Secretary laid out in plain language with no BS "white suburban moms who -- all of a sudden -- (discovered that) their child isn't as bright as they thought they were, and their school isn't quite as good as they thought they were."

How did you jump from what I said to testing phobia? I am saying that test scores are not going to tell me everything I want to know.
And no -- test scores are not going to tell me about administrative style, teaching style, school community. Maybe the vague labels of "good" and "bad" are "good" enough for you, but not for me. Those labels are wholly subjective and may not speak to the particular things I am looking for -- a lot of which -- SURPRISE, SURPRISE -- cannot be gleaned from test scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://www.greatschools.org/

This is a terrible resource, actually, OP. Skip it.

why? It uses test scores and will give you insight into the demographic and FARM rates of each school.

Because FARMS rates and test scores do not give you a complete or, truth be told, picture.
It just tells you how well the kids test and how many of them are poor.
As a parent I want more information than that, but hey maybe that is just me.

What do you think they are doing?! They have to start from somewhere....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://www.greatschools.org/

This is a terrible resource, actually, OP. Skip it.

why? It uses test scores and will give you insight into the demographic and FARM rates of each school.

Because FARMS rates and test scores do not give you a complete or, truth be told, picture.
It just tells you how well the kids test and how many of them are poor.
As a parent I want more information than that, but hey maybe that is just me.

What do you think they are doing?! They have to start from somewhere....

If you say so...

[Anonymous]

A "bad" school is one that doesn't sit or roll over for you when commanded to...

[Anonymous]

Funny... I couldn't care less about how active PTA is, or how "warm" the administration is. School is primarily for education, not parties organized by PTAs. Test results show what percentage of kids acquired the knowledge, and if a school with good scores has "warm" administration - great, if not, I'll settle for a "frigid" one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://www.greatschools.org/

This is a terrible resource, actually, OP. Skip it.

why? It uses test scores and will give you insight into the demographic and FARM rates of each school.

Because FARMS rates and test scores do not give you a complete or, truth be told, picture.
It just tells you how well the kids test and how many of them are poor.
As a parent I want more information than that, but hey maybe that is just me.

What do you think they are doing?! They have to start from somewhere....

I agree - its a good starting point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:On this board and in general, when people say a school is "bad" they mean that the student population is "bad" as in low pass rate on standardized tests. That typically corresponds strongly with the FARMS (free and reduced meals) rate (which is a povery indicator), and to a lesser extent -- the percent of minority kids.

Around here, a school that has an average pass rate is typically considered "bad" b/c there is probably a wealthier school not too far down the road that has tippy top pass rates. In the rest of the US, an average pass rate is not necessarily the death nell that it is here.

I always encourage people to look at the details on the test scores. Is the school ranked in the middle of the state for pass rates (i.e. "average") b/c it has a mixture of high performers and low performers -- which therefore looks like it's "average"? Are there subgroups within a school. that are performing well? That would lead you to infer that kids without impediments (language learners, poverty, limited resources) are able to learn based on the teaching at that school.

The things you don't want to compromise on are (1) safety, (2) teacher having control of the classroom/behavior, (3) teachers being prepared and ready to teach, (4) adminstration that is respected by the teachers, and (5) a social culture that is a good influence on your child (i.e. kids you want your kids to have as friends). Sometimes those things aren't found in the "bad" schools b/c high poverty schools may be overwhelmed with just getting the kids fed. It's not that people who avoid high-poverty schools are bigotted... but you have to feel comfortable that the teachers will have time to deal with your kids and not just spend their time dealing with behavior problems. On the flip side, some high poverty schools (Title I schools) can be great b/c they have much smaller class sizes (extra funding). Only those who know the school from the inside can tell you if a particular Title I school makes an effort to stimulate the top kids or just spends all their time bringing lower performing kids up to speed.

And how do you go about finding this information?

Not trying to be snarky, but my 'precious snowflake' is still in preschool and I have no experience dealing with the public school system as a parent. How do I find out whether administration at our public elementary is 'respected by the teachers' and whether teachers have 'control of the classroom'? It's not that they let you audit K classes before enrolling your child.

[Anonymous]

You have to start talking to the teachers and the parents who go there. Step 1: Ask for a tour and then listen less to what a represtative is telling you and MORE to what you hear or see happening in a classroom as you walk by. Watch how kids move through the hall or how the teachers talk to their kids and what the teachers' expectations are. What types of papers are posted in the halls? Step 2: Gather intel -- When you are at the local park, you start chatting up the parents. If the school has an open house (not the kind in Aug., but the kind where the kids show off their art) you go and look around and chat up the other parents. Do they have a PTA with meetings or with events (reading night, sock hop, craft fairs) -- stop by, listen, ask questions. A lot of times the principal is at the PTA mtgs. If the teacher turnover rate is high -- it's a sign that the teachers don't like the administration. Other parents can tell you if their kids feel safe in class or if the kids are out of control.

And I do think Great Schools is a valuable source of info. You can get the test statistics for Va. on the Va. Dept. of Ed. site, but it's a much easier presentation on Great Schools. The overall school rating isn't the end of the analysis... it's the beginning. You have to look at the subgroups and subject scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You have to start talking to the teachers and the parents who go there. Step 1: Ask for a tour and then listen less to what a represtative is telling you and MORE to what you hear or see happening in a classroom as you walk by. Watch how kids move through the hall or how the teachers talk to their kids and what the teachers' expectations are. What types of papers are posted in the halls? Step 2: Gather intel -- When you are at the local park, you start chatting up the parents. If the school has an open house (not the kind in Aug., but the kind where the kids show off their art) you go and look around and chat up the other parents. Do they have a PTA with meetings or with events (reading night, sock hop, craft fairs) -- stop by, listen, ask questions. A lot of times the principal is at the PTA mtgs. If the teacher turnover rate is high -- it's a sign that the teachers don't like the administration. Other parents can tell you if their kids feel safe in class or if the kids are out of control.

And I do think Great Schools is a valuable source of info. You can get the test statistics for Va. on the Va. Dept. of Ed. site, but it's a much easier presentation on Great Schools. The overall school rating isn't the end of the analysis... it's the beginning. You have to look at the subgroups and subject scores.

12:51 here.
Thanks a lot! That was really helpful.

[Anonymous]

Former teacher: More schools are good than bad. More teachers are good than bad. First step: trust. Second step: Watch and pay attention. Third step: Don't react to EVERYTHING

[Anonymous]

Fourth step: Pick your battles.