Is she trying to get fired?

[Anonymous]

We'd let her going b/c the organization is changing the direction needed from her role, which is true. And if called on it, I can document that we've been having these discussions long before she took FMLA leave.

I have to be the one to let her go because, well, our very aggressive CEO insists it's not her role. That's a large part of what's making me nervous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well, your company would probably fire her and call it a "lay off" and not challenge her on collecting unemployment.

Interesting. Does this protect the company, allow the employee to "save face" or both? Does it include a severance? Sounds clever.

[Anonymous]

She will get a severance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We'd let her going b/c the organization is changing the direction needed from her role, which is true. And if called on it, I can document that we've been having these discussions long before she took FMLA leave.

I have to be the one to let her go because, well, our very aggressive CEO insists it's not her role. That's a large part of what's making me nervous.

How long has she been your direct report? What were her performance evals like prior to taking FMLA? You need to talk with HR and get them to approach office's counsel with you (or are you already in the counsel's office?). It's possible your CEO has been involved in terminations before which resulted in lawsuit and payment of damages. HR would know any history like that. CEO doesn't want involvement because a) CEO is doing other things and doesn't feel like it, and b) CEO knows full well that even in an at will situation when termination is justified that there could be a lawsuit and they are nerve wracking and time consuming to deal with. Also, she may feel that she's pushing the envelope slightly and doesn't want to be sued personally. If you are able to pay a good severance and aren't looking to destroy the employee's chance of working again, I don't see why this should be a huge problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We'd let her going b/c the organization is changing the direction needed from her role, which is true. And if called on it, I can document that we've been having these discussions long before she took FMLA leave.

I have to be the one to let her go because, well, our very aggressive CEO insists it's not her role. That's a large part of what's making me nervous.

Then you owe her unemployment
If you are laying her off due to restructuring, you are a jerk if you say it is for cause to avoid unemployment

[Anonymous]

What is your role besides manager?

Did you CEO personally fire other people? Have you fired other people? Is your boss asking you to step up in your management so this is now something that you are responsible for?

Are you firing for cause, thus denying unemployment? Or laying her off because the company has shifted, and her role is no longer necessary?

Do you have an HR office? Are you expected to handle this entirely by yourself?

If you're offering severance, aren't you also tying accepting that severance to signing a non disclosure agreement that allows her to resign rather than be fired, and says neither one of you will bad mouth the other nor sue the other?

Something is way off here. Your boss wants you to fire her, you are the direct supervisor, your company has fired other people, and yet you're asking DCUM something I'm not entirely clear about, to be honest. Doesn't your company have liability insurance, so you're acting directly on your CEO's direction in firing her? How are you personally liable? Is it possible your CEO just doesn't want to interact with her and is asking you to do your job?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We'd let her going b/c the organization is changing the direction needed from her role, which is true. And if called on it, I can document that we've been having these discussions long before she took FMLA leave.

I have to be the one to let her go because, well, our very aggressive CEO insists it's not her role. That's a large part of what's making me nervous.

Then you owe her unemployment
If you are laying her off due to restructuring, you are a jerk if you say it is for cause to avoid unemployment

Exactly. What is the CEO asking you to do, get rid of her or drag her over the coals? If you just want her gone, lay her off and be done with it. What did HR tell you?

[Anonymous]

We're small - we don't have counsel or much of HR. I'm an exec, but newly so and haven't done this before. Boss may well be trying to screw me, too, and there isn't anyone I could ask internally that would know and that I would trust to tell me honestly. So I'm worried. Yes, it's my job, but it essentially wasn't my decision. CEO said to me "Either you get rid of her or it will start to reflect on you" which is code for get rid of her or I'll get rid of you.

Yes, CEO sucks and yes I am already job hunting. Yes, this person deserves to be fired on performance, but we won't do that. We'll say it was for restructuring, give her a severance and offer a good performance review. I have been her boss for about 18 months. Her prior review was fine but based on crap standards. Her last year's review was never completed b/c of transition in her leadership (before I came on). She is overdue for this year's review b/c it was pushed back for her extended leave. But since her termination won't be based on performance, I'm assuming/hoping that can't be a factor in any later actions.

Sigh. Just in over my head without resources. Thanks for the feedback so far. I have already started getting myself personal liability coverage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We're small - we don't have counsel or much of HR. I'm an exec, but newly so and haven't done this before. Boss may well be trying to screw me, too, and there isn't anyone I could ask internally that would know and that I would trust to tell me honestly. So I'm worried. Yes, it's my job, but it essentially wasn't my decision. CEO said to me "Either you get rid of her or it will start to reflect on you" which is code for get rid of her or I'll get rid of you.

Yes, CEO sucks and yes I am already job hunting. Yes, this person deserves to be fired on performance, but we won't do that. We'll say it was for restructuring, give her a severance and offer a good performance review. I have been her boss for about 18 months. Her prior review was fine but based on crap standards. Her last year's review was never completed b/c of transition in her leadership (before I came on). She is overdue for this year's review b/c it was pushed back for her extended leave. But since her termination won't be based on performance, I'm assuming/hoping that can't be a factor in any later actions.

Sigh. Just in over my head without resources. Thanks for the feedback so far. I have already started getting myself personal liability coverage.

Yes, get the coverage and please no reference at all to FMLA when having layoff discussion with her. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

I feel for you, OP. I'm the person that asked all the questions.

I think you're going into this insufficiently armed. You at least need a lawyer to look over the severance agreement you get her to sign.

Also, remember the #1 rule of firing: don't do it alone. Then it's she said/she said. ALWAYS always always have another person with you in the room when the firing takes place. And then document, document document.

[Anonymous]

Me again. Seriously, I think you can probably find online a severance agreement that releases you and your company from the possibility of her suing you. Look for it!

[Anonymous]

Our CFO is drafting the severance agreement now. I'll have to make sure it covers me as well as the organization. Do I need to get an attorney to look over it on my behalf?

I will have another person in the room, but it will be someone not in the employee's or my reporting chain, which seems weird to me. Someone in a different department but here in our office (other leadership is located elsewhere). CEO won't do it; COO is making it so I can ask him to be the one to join me, but look like a PITA if I do.

Any reason it matters who that other person is or what role they play in the company?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Document a performance issue.
Put her on a performance improvement plan.
Document.
Document.
Document.
Then terminate.

Does not sound like a performance issue. This person is high up. Her opinions is what the op does not like, and some other big shot does not like her anymore. But she must have been hired for those opinions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our CFO is drafting the severance agreement now. I'll have to make sure it covers me as well as the organization. Do I need to get an attorney to look over it on my behalf?

I will have another person in the room, but it will be someone not in the employee's or my reporting chain, which seems weird to me. Someone in a different department but here in our office (other leadership is located elsewhere). CEO won't do it; COO is making it so I can ask him to be the one to join me, but look like a PITA if I do.

Any reason it matters who that other person is or what role they play in the company?

It should be somebody with HR knowledge so they can outline her right to unemployment benefits and be available to answer questions about the severance payment and what she's signing. Is the COO the best available? Then request even if you think you'll look like PITA. Sounds too much like people not wanting to be accountable for their own actions at your place.

[Anonymous]

OP, let us know how it goes.