WaPo story on math finals

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Teachers in the county have been saying for years that emphasis on accelerating students in math in the early years causes problems in later years for a large number of students because they don't spend enough time on the basic skills of arithmetic. Yet instead of listening to what the teachers are and have been saying, we repeatedly get comments such as: the teachers are not being rigorous enough. Why are people so reluctant to believe what teachers have to say on this subject?

The fact that students taking AP exams are doing well is irrelevant to this issue. The students doing well on AP exams are not the same students failing the countywide finals. These are the kids who get the concepts the first time around and don't need additional time with basic arithmetic. But they also represent a small number of the entire student population.

A public education program should in the first instance serve the majority of the students. Then focus on the students at the top and bottom of the class. Somehow we seem to have flipped the system, with people who represent the interests of the minority number of students at the top demanding more resources at the expense of the majority of students.

This! +1000

[Anonymous]

Rigor has nothing to do with acceleration.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is all silly. We need to rethink math. What is the rush for taking algebra in 7th grade when 99% of the work force won't us anything beyond algebra in the real world?

Now that is a silly comment. By the time on kids grow up, a large percentage of the work force will need modern computer science and other post-algebra mathematical skills to be and remain gainfully employed.

You live in a fantasy world... Doctors teachers lawyers accountants even most scientists will NEVER EVER have to use anything beyond algebra. In the small chance that they do they'll be a program or app for it.

true, and certainly not factoring quadratic equations and all that crap. Never even did this in high school, nevber needed it in my life, and yet DC is doing it in 7th grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teachers in the county have been saying for years that emphasis on accelerating students in math in the early years causes problems in later years for a large number of students because they don't spend enough time on the basic skills of arithmetic. Yet instead of listening to what the teachers are and have been saying, we repeatedly get comments such as: the teachers are not being rigorous enough. Why are people so reluctant to believe what teachers have to say on this subject?

The fact that students taking AP exams are doing well is irrelevant to this issue. The students doing well on AP exams are not the same students failing the countywide finals. These are the kids who get the concepts the first time around and don't need additional time with basic arithmetic. But they also represent a small number of the entire student population.

A public education program should in the first instance serve the majority of the students. Then focus on the students at the top and bottom of the class. Somehow we seem to have flipped the system, with people who represent the interests of the minority number of students at the top demanding more resources at the expense of the majority of students.

This! +1000

This anonymous comments on OILF blog says it well.

"One more observation: Perhaps constructivist education systems that require students to make huge intuitive leaps are designed for gifted students. This sort of makes sense since the goal of American schools seems to be creativity and innovation as opposed to basic skills, and most people believe that creativity is a sort of hardwired gift.

In contrast, systematic curricula that require students to build their knowledge block by block (like Singapore Math) are designed for your average student. This makes sense in a Singaporean context because the goal here tends to be to have an efficient, orderly and competent workforce. (It is true, however, that the Sing government is now trying to encourage creativity and innovation far more than ever before.)

Maybe that's the difference: Singapore designs a curriculum with the expectation that every child on the island will learn basic Math well, but the US designs curricula with the expectation that the gifted will be able to make sense of it, and they will become more creative and innovative as a result.

So all Singaporeans will be able to do basic Math, but we may not produce many creative geniuses. In contrast, the US will produce more creative geniuses, but its average Joe won't know a thing."

Coming to the US as an adult, I do feel this way. I remember I was so shocked when one of my friend who told me that 90% Americans cannot calculate the area of a trapezoid. 20 years later, I am not even sure 10% of the population can calculate the area of a triangle. The students at the top are doing just fine. The average students, and not just the disadvantaged students, are suffering from the awful math education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[
You live in a fantasy world... Doctors teachers lawyers accountants even most scientists will NEVER EVER have to use anything beyond algebra. In the small chance that they do they'll be a program or app for it.

There's no end of stuff that almost nobody does after K-12, and yet it's taught in K-12. I, for one, would have been very happy for PE to have omitted volleyball. Who has to play volleyball in their adult lives? Let's get rid of it. We can get rid of most of science, too, while we're at it -- when's the last time you had to balance a chemical equation? And who needs to do arithmetic? We have calculators on our phones for that. Actually we can get rid of most of school in general. Teach them how to read. That's all anybody really needs.

Alternatively, of course, you could think of math as a fundamental part of education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[
You live in a fantasy world... Doctors teachers lawyers accountants even most scientists will NEVER EVER have to use anything beyond algebra. In the small chance that they do they'll be a program or app for it.

There's no end of stuff that almost nobody does after K-12, and yet it's taught in K-12. I, for one, would have been very happy for PE to have omitted volleyball. Who has to play volleyball in their adult lives? Let's get rid of it. We can get rid of most of science, too, while we're at it -- when's the last time you had to balance a chemical equation? And who needs to do arithmetic? We have calculators on our phones for that. Actually we can get rid of most of school in general. Teach them how to read. That's all anybody really needs.

Alternatively, of course, you could think of math as a fundamental part of education.

I'm the pp you are responding to and you are attacking a strawman. I never said no one should learn math in school or not even that no one should learn algebra or calculus. I'm saying the vast majority shouldn't be pushed to learn it in 7 th grade. It's silly really... Also a lot of higher math would be better saved for college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm saying the vast majority shouldn't be pushed to learn it in 7 th grade. It's silly really... Also a lot of higher math would be better saved for college.

But the vast majority isn't getting pushed to learn it in 7th grade. In MCPS, under Math Pathways, the majority of students took Algebra I in 8th grade, and under Curriculum 2.0, Algebra I is the on-grade-level option for 8th grade. (Everywhere else I've asked, Algebra I in 8th grade is the advanced track, and Algebra I in 9th grade is the on-grade-level option.) Algebra I in 7th grade is either the advanced track or the extra-advanced track.

Also, if you save the higher math for college, then you can't take the science or math that requires the higher math until after you've taken the higher math. Which will add several semesters to a college education, at a cost of a gazillion dollars (roughly) per semester.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm saying the vast majority shouldn't be pushed to learn it in 7 th grade. It's silly really... Also a lot of higher math would be better saved for college.

But the vast majority isn't getting pushed to learn it in 7th grade. In MCPS, under Math Pathways, the majority of students took Algebra I in 8th grade, and under Curriculum 2.0, Algebra I is the on-grade-level option for 8th grade. (Everywhere else I've asked, Algebra I in 8th grade is the advanced track, and Algebra I in 9th grade is the on-grade-level option.) Algebra I in 7th grade is either the advanced track or the extra-advanced track.

Also, if you save the higher math for college, then you can't take the science or math that requires the higher math until after you've taken the higher math. Which will add several semesters to a college education, at a cost of a gazillion dollars (roughly) per semester.

That's all true... But even algebra shouldn't be on grade for everyone clearly as the majority can't handle it.

Advanced math for the majority of the population should be an elective taken in college. Most high schoolers have no business taking it. It's a farce. Now some should.. Then they can tackle higher level stuff in college. But most shouldn't even think of calculus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm saying the vast majority shouldn't be pushed to learn it in 7 th grade. It's silly really... Also a lot of higher math would be better saved for college.

But the vast majority isn't getting pushed to learn it in 7th grade. In MCPS, under Math Pathways, the majority of students took Algebra I in 8th grade, and under Curriculum 2.0, Algebra I is the on-grade-level option for 8th grade. (Everywhere else I've asked, Algebra I in 8th grade is the advanced track, and Algebra I in 9th grade is the on-grade-level option.) Algebra I in 7th grade is either the advanced track or the extra-advanced track.

Also, if you save the higher math for college, then you can't take the science or math that requires the higher math until after you've taken the higher math. Which will add several semesters to a college education, at a cost of a gazillion dollars (roughly) per semester.

That's all true... But even algebra shouldn't be on grade for everyone clearly as the majority can't handle it.

Advanced math for the majority of the population should be an elective taken in college. Most high schoolers have no business taking it. It's a farce. Now some should.. Then they can tackle higher level stuff in college. But most shouldn't even think of calculus.

I generally agree with this. They should spend time teaching them statistics, interest rate calculations etc. Things that can use in day to day life.

[Anonymous]

It makes me angry that the school officials seem to be blaming the failure rate on the students by saying that they evidently aren't studying for the exams. One of the local news stations showed some stats yesterday and at some schools, 97-100% of students failed the semester exam for one of the math classes in question. If the numbers are that high, that tells me there's much more of an issue than kids not studying. I will be interested to see how my DC does on the upcoming Alg2 exam, after receiving average grades in the class this year.

The kids are being pushed through the math classes without having a full understanding of the subject matter, especially the kids who take Algebra in middle school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It makes me angry that the school officials seem to be blaming the failure rate on the students by saying that they evidently aren't studying for the exams. One of the local news stations showed some stats yesterday and at some schools, 97-100% of students failed the semester exam for one of the math classes in question. If the numbers are that high, that tells me there's much more of an issue than kids not studying. I will be interested to see how my DC does on the upcoming Alg2 exam, after receiving average grades in the class this year.

The kids are being pushed through the math classes without having a full understanding of the subject matter, especially the kids who take Algebra in middle school.

I have not seen anywhere where anyone from MCPS had blamed the kids for not studying enough. But if you don't have a solid understanding of fractions and exponents, you can forget being able to learn Algebra.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It makes me angry that the school officials seem to be blaming the failure rate on the students by saying that they evidently aren't studying for the exams. One of the local news stations showed some stats yesterday and at some schools, 97-100% of students failed the semester exam for one of the math classes in question. If the numbers are that high, that tells me there's much more of an issue than kids not studying. I will be interested to see how my DC does on the upcoming Alg2 exam, after receiving average grades in the class this year.

The kids are being pushed through the math classes without having a full understanding of the subject matter, especially the kids who take Algebra in middle school.

I have not seen anywhere where anyone from MCPS had blamed the kids for not studying enough. But if you don't have a solid understanding of fractions and exponents, you can forget being able to learn Algebra.

I've seen a few quotes from school administrators to the effect that the finals don't have a huge impact on the semester grade, so kids make the calculation that they don't need to study. This is connected to the truly weird grade calculation system in MoCo, and how a final test result of, say, a D would impact the grade of a kid with two Bs in two quarters of the 2nd semester.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[
You live in a fantasy world... Doctors teachers lawyers accountants even most scientists will NEVER EVER have to use anything beyond algebra. In the small chance that they do they'll be a program or app for it.

There's no end of stuff that almost nobody does after K-12, and yet it's taught in K-12. I, for one, would have been very happy for PE to have omitted volleyball. Who has to play volleyball in their adult lives? Let's get rid of it. We can get rid of most of science, too, while we're at it -- when's the last time you had to balance a chemical equation? And who needs to do arithmetic? We have calculators on our phones for that. Actually we can get rid of most of school in general. Teach them how to read. That's all anybody really needs.

Alternatively, of course, you could think of math as a fundamental part of education.

Fine. Most will agree. But why Algebra I in 7th grade. I had basic algebra in 10th. What's the freakin' rush?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Fine. Most will agree. But why Algebra I in 7th grade. I had basic algebra in 10th. What's the freakin' rush?

Because

1. if you take Algebra I in 10th grade, you will probably have to take a year of math in college before you even get to calculus, and a lot of STEM courses have calculus (or higher) as a pre-requisite.
2. some students are ready for Algebra I in 7th grade. And again, Algebra I in 7th grade is the above-grade-level track.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fine. Most will agree. But why Algebra I in 7th grade. I had basic algebra in 10th. What's the freakin' rush?

Because

1. if you take Algebra I in 10th grade, you will probably have to take a year of math in college before you even get to calculus, and a lot of STEM courses have calculus (or higher) as a pre-requisite.
2. some students are ready for Algebra I in 7th grade. And again, Algebra I in 7th grade is the above-grade-level track.

Not PP but a sensible approach would be take alg in 9th, geo in 10th, trig in 11 th, pre cal in 12th. This puts you right on target for college calculus. You shouldn't have to take either of the last 2 to graduate hs. Those who are more advanced can start in 8th.

But I'll tell you many universities have math placement tests so even if you take pre calc in highschool you can't go to calc if you are prematurely accelerated and can't pass the test.