Great NYT column on the achivement gap b/w rich vs middleclass and poor kids

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I imagine that almost all of those who are reading this and thinking of themselves as "middle class" in this analysis are in fact not what he means by middle class. If you put the top 10% of income or certainly if you include even the top 25% as the high income and everyone else as middle class until you reach the working poor most of DCUM are in that high income group. If your family makes $150K or more, you are not the middle class families that are being addressed here.

20:59. I agree. I'm in the top 10% income-wise, but grew up lower middle class/working class. I feel I got as good an education as did my wealthy classmates. But I did most of my schooling before 1980, as mentioned in the article. Educational opportunities were more equal back then. Now that I have a much higher income, I don't feel I'm doing anything significantly different with my kids. I do feel I can provide more networking opportunities that enable my kids to have experiences I never could. And they definitely learn from that. But that's now that they are older. Not before kindergarten.

My brother, on the other hand, is solidly middle class, divorced and making $60,000 a year. His kids do pretty much everything mine do, but they are not performing as well in school. This is anecdotal only, of course, but I don't understand why the disparity occurs. Is it peer group?

I think it's a combination of peer group and expectations. One relative graduated from a 2nd tier state university, and her husband has a similar background. They are middle class. Compared to kids of the double grad degree homes here in DC, there are a lot of differences. The parents work long hours and have long commutes. They couldn't really afford household help, and their kids are involved in few activities, as their parents have little time to drive them. My relative isn't that well-organized and often was scrambling for summer care, and they were reluctant to push their kids to try new activities. Their kids also tended to quit things after a year or two, so they never achieved mastery of anything. The kids are allowed to watch huge amounts of tv and play video games for hours. The kids also had some learning issues, and my relative and her husband were in recession-vulnerable sectors of the economy, so these last few years have been hard.

[Anonymous]

"I think it's a combination of peer group and expectations. One relative graduated from a 2nd tier state university, and her husband has a similar background. They are middle class. Compared to kids of the double grad degree homes here in DC, there are a lot of differences. The parents work long hours and have long commutes. They couldn't really afford household help, and their kids are involved in few activities, as their parents have little time to drive them. My relative isn't that well-organized and often was scrambling for summer care, and they were reluctant to push their kids to try new activities. Their kids also tended to quit things after a year or two, so they never achieved mastery of anything. The kids are allowed to watch huge amounts of tv and play video games for hours. The kids also had some learning issues, and my relative and her husband were in recession-vulnerable sectors of the economy, so these last few years have been hard."

OMG, you need to take English Writing for Dummies 101 .

"Master of Anything." What a putz.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"I think it's a combination of peer group and expectations. One relative graduated from a 2nd tier state university, and her husband has a similar background. They are middle class. Compared to kids of the double grad degree homes here in DC, there are a lot of differences. The parents work long hours and have long commutes. They couldn't really afford household help, and their kids are involved in few activities, as their parents have little time to drive them. My relative isn't that well-organized and often was scrambling for summer care, and they were reluctant to push their kids to try new activities. Their kids also tended to quit things after a year or two, so they never achieved mastery of anything. The kids are allowed to watch huge amounts of tv and play video games for hours. The kids also had some learning issues, and my relative and her husband were in recession-vulnerable sectors of the economy, so these last few years have been hard."

OMG, you need to take English Writing for Dummies 101 .

"Master of Anything." What a putz.

I'm not quite sure what your objection is, with the exception of a run-on sentence in the middle of my post. I've been an interviewer for my Ivy alma mater for a while. One of the things the admissions committee looks at is whether kids stick with their activities (sports, music, etc.) long enough to master a set of skills. Selective colleges feel that the habit of diligence bodes well for future success. I'm just pointing out that if a family is not well-off, they may not have the money or time to enable their kids to get this skill set, and in the case of my family members, may not know that that is an unspoken requirement.

[Anonymous]

Interesting discussion, thanks. Good things to think about, both personally and policy-wise.

[Anonymous]

Just noting that for the purposes of this article "poor" was the bottom 10% while "rich" was 90% and over, and middle was everything in between. The "in between" was HHI above $15,000 and below $165,000.

[Anonymous]

You think they'd break it up a bit more between $15,000 and $165,000. Those are very different incomes.

[Anonymous]

This is why universal preK is needed in this country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How do the dirt poor, uneducated, non-English speaking Asian immigrants factor into this? Somehow, they still kick butt in the US.

not the uneducated ones...dirt poor, father was a doctor in Vietnam, different story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is why universal preK is needed in this country.

If you read and understood the article then you would know that just universal preK will not solve the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How do the dirt poor, uneducated, non-English speaking Asian immigrants factor into this? Somehow, they still kick butt in the US.

Hard work sometimes, but a lot of times Asian immigrants do have highly educated parents. Lots of Vietnamese or Chinese who fled were the educated classes. Lots of Asians come from for er British commonwealth countries where they may have had access to British style schools that were quite good.

[Anonymous]

"Hard work sometimes, but a lot of times Asian immigrants do have highly educated parents. "

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I imagine that almost all of those who are reading this and thinking of themselves as "middle class" in this analysis are in fact not what he means by middle class. If you put the top 10% of income or certainly if you include even the top 25% as the high income and everyone else as middle class until you reach the working poor most of DCUM are in that high income group. If your family makes $150K or more, you are not the middle class families that are being addressed here.

20:59. I agree. I'm in the top 10% income-wise, but grew up lower middle class/working class. I feel I got as good an education as did my wealthy classmates. But I did most of my schooling before 1980, as mentioned in the article. Educational opportunities were more equal back then. Now that I have a much higher income, I don't feel I'm doing anything significantly different with my kids. I do feel I can provide more networking opportunities that enable my kids to have experiences I never could. And they definitely learn from that. But that's now that they are older. Not before kindergarten.

My brother, on the other hand, is solidly middle class, divorced and making $60,000 a year. His kids do pretty much everything mine do, but they are not performing as well in school. This is anecdotal only, of course, but I don't understand why the disparity occurs. Is it peer group?

This is interesting PP. According to the article, much of the disparity would relate to how you and your brother parented the kids when they were small. Would you say that all the cousins entered kindergarten at the same level?

Yes. I'd say they were all very similar in kindergarten and the disparities became more apparent around 4th grade. All went to high quality day cares in their respective towns. We only live 1/2 hour from each other, so things aren't that much different.

Perhaps your kids are simply smarter?

[Anonymous]

Yep, genetics does play a role. When I compare my two nieces who are 2 months apart I can definitely see great cognitive differences between them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is why universal preK is needed in this country.

If you read and understood the article then you would know that just universal preK will not solve the problem.

Absolutely. I read a paper (I think it was by some Harvard Education professors) who evaluated the long-term impacts of every program they could find that tried to change outcomes for underprivileged kids. The only one that had any lasting impact was an intensive (and prohibitively expensive) program that basically provided full-time social workers for the families of the children. They taught the the parents how to parent -- how to speak to the children, use positive discipline, help with homework, etc. Intervention during the school day was not enough.

[Anonymous]

There are a lot of issues, social capital, expectations, peers, parental ability, even married or divorced that impact kids long term achievment. One of the more interesting books that has described:

Unequal Childhoods

Class, Race, and Family Life, Second Edition with an Update a Decade Later

Annette Lareau (Author)