Alexandria City: Maury ES vs Mount Vernon Community School?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have found the FARMS and ELL population in the City schools overwhelm them and a big emphasis is placed on those group of students.

What is "FARMS" and "ELL?"

FARMS= Free and Reduced Meals Students
ELL=English Language Learners

Yes, the schools in Alexandria do have a substantial number of people with lower incomes and English as a second language. We are in ACPS schools, we fit into neither category, and while we do feel that the schools work hard to support the needs of these students (as they should), we do not feel it is at the expense of our children. We are satisfied with the education they are receiving.

OP, I would tour both schools. It will give you the best sense of each one. I know happy parents at both schools, so it ultimately will be which is the best fit for your circumstances.

I am poster 15:20 - what exactly are you satisifed with though? I have heard this from lots of parents like you but none have ever been able to articulate what they think is so good about the education or the school.
When it comes down to it, I still find that most people fall into the "stuck in their house' category and kind of feel like elementary school isn't as important as say middle school. Many parents seems to pull their kids out for middle school and I don't blame them.

[Anonymous]

If you decide to go the parochial route, St. Marys has been a good fit with our family. It's more consverative than I prefer, but it's a good school and a tight knit community. Our decision was based primarily on the local middle school's reputation and shortfalls. They suck in both Alexandria and Fairfax Co.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have found the FARMS and ELL population in the City schools overwhelm them and a big emphasis is placed on those group of students.

What is "FARMS" and "ELL?"

FARMS= Free and Reduced Meals Students
ELL=English Language Learners

Yes, the schools in Alexandria do have a substantial number of people with lower incomes and English as a second language. We are in ACPS schools, we fit into neither category, and while we do feel that the schools work hard to support the needs of these students (as they should), we do not feel it is at the expense of our children. We are satisfied with the education they are receiving.

OP, I would tour both schools. It will give you the best sense of each one. I know happy parents at both schools, so it ultimately will be which is the best fit for your circumstances.

I am poster 15:20 - what exactly are you satisifed with though? I have heard this from lots of parents like you but none have ever been able to articulate what they think is so good about the education or the school.
When it comes down to it, I still find that most people fall into the "stuck in their house' category and kind of feel like elementary school isn't as important as say middle school. Many parents seems to pull their kids out for middle school and I don't blame them.

NP here, and I'm not even in Alexandria, but you do realize how insecure you come across, right? What is there to "articulate"? No to speak for her, but really, this parent is happy with the school, it means that she believes that her kids get the education they deserve, that they're happy and nurtured in their classroom environment, what else is there to specify? SAT projections? No, sorry, a high FARMS does not equal sub-par education for the rest of us. But if you're already planning for private, by all means, go ahead, more public resources for others.

[Anonymous]

This is the OP, and I appreciate the frank and honest discussion. I am not trying to be judgmental, but I am concerned about Mount Vernon Elementary and have some concerns, thought not as many about Maury.

I am also looking for feedback about what is so positive about the schools. I have heard a lot of negatives about all of ACPS, and a lot of people who say "it's not as bad as everyone says" or "it's been good for my child." but what does that mean? I would love specific feedback on the intersession schedule at MVCS, and whether that has been positive. Also, anyone who has enrolled in the dual language program at MVCS? I know there are many schools that have "dual language" programs in FFX county with long waiting lists because it's desirable, but is that the same with MVCS or is it dual language because of necessity, e.g., because the children simply don't know English. Maybe that's not a bad thing. I just don't know, and am trying to learn as much as I can.

I am still so surprised by the feedback I've received about public schools in Alexandria. Many of the neighborhoods in Old Town and Del Ray, Rosemont, Beverley Hills, etc., are brimming over with two income families of young professionals (of many different races... black, white, Southeast Asian, Latino, etc). We love the multicultural aspects of Del Ray and love the location. But why are the schools ranked so awfully?

[Anonymous]

OP, a search of DCUM will show you all of the previous knock down, drag out fights over this. People have strong feelings about ACPS.

ACPS schools will always have lower test scores than a predominantly high income neighborhood where no one learning English as a second language.

There are some folks who are convinced that white middle class kids "lose" in school districts like this, because they aren't challenged enough. An examination of the subgroups being tested shows that white middle class students at these schools do not score lower than their counterparts in more homogeneous districts.

We are white middle class, and we don't feel this is the case. Our children receive challenging work from their teachers, appropriate for their academic level. Those in their class that need remediation receive instruction appropriate for their level. The edu-speak term for this is differentiation. ACPS schools receive federal funding under Title I due to the percentage of low-income families. This money is used to pay for reading specialists, math specialists, ELL teachers, etc. These extra resource teachers translate into my kids getting a low student-to-teacher ratio, and in my experience my kids get enough individualized attention from their classroom teachers. Looking into the future, we see a rigorous selection of courses at the high school level, with kids that are focused on going to college able to get accepted to many great institutions. Are there also kids that drop out, or coast through four years with the bare minimum of effort? Sure, but kids that want to will get tons of support if they want to make college a goal, regardless of background, country of origin, or income level, and my kids will get to be surrounded by that diversity, in all its complexity.

My kids attend a school with over 60 countries represented. That's not something that shows up on test scores, but I think it's a gift I can give my children.

So, this is the reality. If you are just looking at test scores, you will think ACPS is bad. You point out that you have spoken to parents who say "it's not as bad as everyone says" and "it's been good for my child." This is also a reality. It's my reality, and the reality of many other concerned, committed parents who are in ACPS.

There are parents who are also very unhappy with ACPS. Some of them have direct knowledge/experience, some don't. If you read DCUM, you'll find there are parents who are unhappy with Montgomery County's new 2.0 curriculum. Some MoCo parents may ultimately decide they are fed up with MoCo and go elsewhere. Other parents may also decide that MoCo is still a good school district. I'm not prepared to declare that one is definitively "right" or "wrong" on that argument. Both sides have different priorities that they consider when weighing the merits of the school system.

Where am I going with this? There is no one "right" answer. There is what works for your family. You like Del Ray for all the reasons you listed? There's a good bet that you'll like either Maury or Mt. Vernon. I URGE you to tour the schools and talk to parents that have kids that are currently enrolled. Mt. Vernon's dual language and intersession are unique/different features, and you should make sure you are speaking with people with direct, recent knowledge, rather than an anonymous message board.

You can also talk to other parents who live in Del Ray who have decided to send their child to private school, and get a sense of what led them to that decision.

No matter what you decide, OP, know that your kid is going to get a positive school experience, because you are clearly an involved parent who cares about DC's education. At the end of the day, that is the single biggest factor in your child's scholastic success.
Good luck!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have found the FARMS and ELL population in the City schools overwhelm them and a big emphasis is placed on those group of students.

What is "FARMS" and "ELL?"

FARMS= Free and Reduced Meals Students
ELL=English Language Learners

Yes, the schools in Alexandria do have a substantial number of people with lower incomes and English as a second language. We are in ACPS schools, we fit into neither category, and while we do feel that the schools work hard to support the needs of these students (as they should), we do not feel it is at the expense of our children. We are satisfied with the education they are receiving.

OP, I would tour both schools. It will give you the best sense of each one. I know happy parents at both schools, so it ultimately will be which is the best fit for your circumstances.

I am poster 15:20 - what exactly are you satisifed with though? I have heard this from lots of parents like you but none have ever been able to articulate what they think is so good about the education or the school.
When it comes down to it, I still find that most people fall into the "stuck in their house' category and kind of feel like elementary school isn't as important as say middle school. Many parents seems to pull their kids out for middle school and I don't blame them.

Most also have never experienced anything else, so they don't know what good education looks like. If you surveyed ACPS refugees in other systems, you'd get a very different answer. Some of the ACPS boosterism is little more than confirmation bias and wishful thinking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is the OP, and I appreciate the frank and honest discussion. I am not trying to be judgmental, but I am concerned about Mount Vernon Elementary and have some concerns, thought not as many about Maury.

I am also looking for feedback about what is so positive about the schools. I have heard a lot of negatives about all of ACPS, and a lot of people who say "it's not as bad as everyone says" or "it's been good for my child." but what does that mean? I would love specific feedback on the intersession schedule at MVCS, and whether that has been positive. Also, anyone who has enrolled in the dual language program at MVCS? I know there are many schools that have "dual language" programs in FFX county with long waiting lists because it's desirable, but is that the same with MVCS or is it dual language because of necessity, e.g., because the children simply don't know English. Maybe that's not a bad thing. I just don't know, and am trying to learn as much as I can.

I am still so surprised by the feedback I've received about public schools in Alexandria. Many of the neighborhoods in Old Town and Del Ray, Rosemont, Beverley Hills, etc., are brimming over with two income families of young professionals (of many different races... black, white, Southeast Asian, Latino, etc). We love the multicultural aspects of Del Ray and love the location. But why are the schools ranked so awfully?

I think a lot of them romanticize diversity but once they actually encounter it in the schools and discover the very negative impact it can have on the educational experience, they begin to think twice. For example, in ES, my dd was in a classroom with a boy from the projects who relayed, in graphic detail, how people get arrested and do drugs. This is when he wasn't otherwise disrupting the classroom. In MS, this is more concentrated at GW, and there are some racial tensions. And then in TC, you're looking at a strict bifurcation of college-track white kids who exist in a bubble, and everyone else. The dropout rate for Hispanics is about 35% and there is actually a daycare for students on the campus.

Some people take this in stride. A few will still cling to this idea that these things are virtuous. But many others look at that and the dysfunctional governance of the system and say, "oh, hell no."

[Anonymous]

And this from our ACPS family:

We love ACPS. We had our kid in private first, and we chose to yank from a ranked private to ACPS. We have not a single complaint. The ACPS academics are wonderful, the faculty and staff responsiveness is flawless, and our DC is getting real diversity and training. We both have all the typical snob educational backgrounds. According to some of the people who post on this board, we should have no tolerance for ACPS. All wrong. Please, go take a tour of your prospective ACPS schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And this from our ACPS family:

We love ACPS. We had our kid in private first, and we chose to yank from a ranked private to ACPS. We have not a single complaint. The ACPS academics are wonderful, the faculty and staff responsiveness is flawless, and our DC is getting real diversity and training. We both have all the typical snob educational backgrounds. According to some of the people who post on this board, we should have no tolerance for ACPS. All wrong. Please, go take a tour of your prospective ACPS schools.

I will grant you that ACPS is a step up from Burgundy Farms, yes. That is true.

[Anonymous]

Since you have time OP - take Mt. Vernon and look at the break out of test scores for each subgroup of students - black, hispanic, special education, etc - and then compare those scores with a similar demographic make up school in Arlington Co. I did this and discovered that in almost all sub-groups, with similar school demographics, Arlington Co. students did better. Arlington Co. also has larger class sizes. I then began to look way more closely at the curriculums. I discovered that Arlington Co. has textbooks for three subjects in Elementary school that ACPS does not. I was told various reasons for this - that kids learn better through doing, that teachers like to provide their own material, and lastly - and the one most likely the truth - there were text books but they stopped using them becasue most kids were unable to read at grade level and couldn't use the books anyway (this gem was provided by a first year teacher who likely didn't realize NOT to tell parents this). I have to wonder if having a text book might in fact make a difference. Something makes a difference since Arlington Co. can clearly reach and teach more students than ACPS.

And also OP, I am wondering - have you missed the huge amount of public housing that is present in Old Town as well as throughout the City. True Del Ray doesn't have any of the actually built by the City stuff but there is of course Presedential Greens and Arlandria at the end of Del Ray. Certainly you have seen that. There is block upon block of public housing left in Old Town. There are several plaes on Duke St. also. The upper middle class parents send their kids to private school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, a search of DCUM will show you all of the previous knock down, drag out fights over this. People have strong feelings about ACPS.

ACPS schools will always have lower test scores than a predominantly high income neighborhood where no one learning English as a second language.

There are some folks who are convinced that white middle class kids "lose" in school districts like this, because they aren't challenged enough. An examination of the subgroups being tested shows that white middle class students at these schools do not score lower than their counterparts in more homogeneous districts.

We are white middle class, and we don't feel this is the case. Our children receive challenging work from their teachers, appropriate for their academic level. Those in their class that need remediation receive instruction appropriate for their level. The edu-speak term for this is differentiation. ACPS schools receive federal funding under Title I due to the percentage of low-income families. This money is used to pay for reading specialists, math specialists, ELL teachers, etc. These extra resource teachers translate into my kids getting a low student-to-teacher ratio, and in my experience my kids get enough individualized attention from their classroom teachers. Looking into the future, we see a rigorous selection of courses at the high school level, with kids that are focused on going to college able to get accepted to many great institutions. Are there also kids that drop out, or coast through four years with the bare minimum of effort? Sure, but kids that want to will get tons of support if they want to make college a goal, regardless of background, country of origin, or income level, and my kids will get to be surrounded by that diversity, in all its complexity.

My kids attend a school with over 60 countries represented. That's not something that shows up on test scores, but I think it's a gift I can give my children.

So, this is the reality. If you are just looking at test scores, you will think ACPS is bad. You point out that you have spoken to parents who say "it's not as bad as everyone says" and "it's been good for my child." This is also a reality. It's my reality, and the reality of many other concerned, committed parents who are in ACPS.

There are parents who are also very unhappy with ACPS. Some of them have direct knowledge/experience, some don't. If you read DCUM, you'll find there are parents who are unhappy with Montgomery County's new 2.0 curriculum. Some MoCo parents may ultimately decide they are fed up with MoCo and go elsewhere. Other parents may also decide that MoCo is still a good school district. I'm not prepared to declare that one is definitively "right" or "wrong" on that argument. Both sides have different priorities that they consider when weighing the merits of the school system.

Where am I going with this? There is no one "right" answer. There is what works for your family. You like Del Ray for all the reasons you listed? There's a good bet that you'll like either Maury or Mt. Vernon. I URGE you to tour the schools and talk to parents that have kids that are currently enrolled. Mt. Vernon's dual language and intersession are unique/different features, and you should make sure you are speaking with people with direct, recent knowledge, rather than an anonymous message board.

You can also talk to other parents who live in Del Ray who have decided to send their child to private school, and get a sense of what led them to that decision.

No matter what you decide, OP, know that your kid is going to get a positive school experience, because you are clearly an involved parent who cares about DC's education. At the end of the day, that is the single biggest factor in your child's scholastic success.
Good luck!

OP here again. Thank you to this poster for their candid and helpful comments and suggestions. I really appreciate your response, which is great advice. My ex and I are on the right page that we are now starting to inquire and ask around. And we will ask to visit classes and tour schools ASAP. We may be separated, but we are on the same page when it comes to education. We value the multicultural nature of our neighborhood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Since you have time OP - take Mt. Vernon and look at the break out of test scores for each subgroup of students - black, hispanic, special education, etc - and then compare those scores with a similar demographic make up school in Arlington Co. I did this and discovered that in almost all sub-groups, with similar school demographics, Arlington Co. students did better. Arlington Co. also has larger class sizes. I then began to look way more closely at the curriculums. I discovered that Arlington Co. has textbooks for three subjects in Elementary school that ACPS does not. I was told various reasons for this - that kids learn better through doing, that teachers like to provide their own material, and lastly - and the one most likely the truth - there were text books but they stopped using them becasue most kids were unable to read at grade level and couldn't use the books anyway (this gem was provided by a first year teacher who likely didn't realize NOT to tell parents this). I have to wonder if having a text book might in fact make a difference. Something makes a difference since Arlington Co. can clearly reach and teach more students than ACPS.

And also OP, I am wondering - have you missed the huge amount of public housing that is present in Old Town as well as throughout the City. True Del Ray doesn't have any of the actually built by the City stuff but there is of course Presedential Greens and Arlandria at the end of Del Ray. Certainly you have seen that. There is block upon block of public housing left in Old Town. There are several plaes on Duke St. also. The upper middle class parents send their kids to private school.

OP again. Thanks for this insight. I will do the comparisons you note. I guess the bigger question is what are we to do when we do not live in Arlington County? we live in Alexandria, and are looking for the best option within the city. Unfortunately, we cannot afford $28k for private Kindergarten (before after care is factored in). So, I appreciate the comparisons between Arlington and Alexandria, but that doesn't address my original question. I cannot afford to live in Arlington either, especially now that we are separated and I am down to one income (and a fed no less, with frozen salary for 4 years!).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
1. In FCPS (NOT Alexandria), all primary school Mondays are half-days. Early years are half-days anyway, so Monday for K in Ffx is a half of a half day, a little over two hours.

2. Fled AWAY from Ffx. Saw zero of any appeal whatsoever.

lol, better schools in Fairfax but better daycare in Alexandria, so APS gets people who care more about daycare than education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
OP again. Thanks for this insight. I will do the comparisons you note. I guess the bigger question is what are we to do when we do not live in Arlington County? we live in Alexandria, and are looking for the best option within the city. Unfortunately, we cannot afford $28k for private Kindergarten (before after care is factored in). So, I appreciate the comparisons between Arlington and Alexandria, but that doesn't address my original question. I cannot afford to live in Arlington either, especially now that we are separated and I am down to one income (and a fed no less, with frozen salary for 4 years!).

Right now the market is excellent in both Del Ray and Rosemont to sell. So sell, rent a condo for a couple years in N. Arl and then buy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
OP again. Thanks for this insight. I will do the comparisons you note. I guess the bigger question is what are we to do when we do not live in Arlington County? we live in Alexandria, and are looking for the best option within the city. Unfortunately, we cannot afford $28k for private Kindergarten (before after care is factored in). So, I appreciate the comparisons between Arlington and Alexandria, but that doesn't address my original question. I cannot afford to live in Arlington either, especially now that we are separated and I am down to one income (and a fed no less, with frozen salary for 4 years!).

Right now the market is excellent in both Del Ray and Rosemont to sell. So sell, rent a condo for a couple years in N. Arl and then buy.

Op again. Selling is not an option or moving right now. Given the separation we need to be near each other to split time and custody with DS. Unless maybe south Arlington. But that's not a viable option.