Do you truly believe or were you just raised that way?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was raised protestant christian and as I've gotten older I have grown more skeptical. I am now a parent and we do attend church (a very progressive congregation but not UU). I don't tell my daughter anything is "fact" (for example heaven). I just tell her that Jesus was a teacher and that we don't exactly know what happens when you die. She has not yet been baptized because I don't know how I feel about that. I think I may let her decide when she is older.

I am a true believer. I am Catholic. I was an ignorant Christian until I began dating my wife, the daughter of a Presbyterian minister. In order to discuss religion with her, I had to educate myself on what my own denomination taught. In educating myself, I became a person that believed not just because I was raised in that denomination, but because the literature I read was powerfully moving, thought provoking and convincing to me.

Regarding what I put in bold. I remember reading something from CS Lewis years ago on this topic. Lewis would forcefully refute what you've said about Jesus being just a teacher. He said something to the effect that it was not possible for Jesus to have been "merely a good and wise religious philosopher" (I'm quoting for emphasis, not becuase those are Lewis' exact words). Lewis reasoned that if Jesus was merely a good and wise teacher then it would have been truly evil for him to have allowed the many thousands of people who were his followers (during his own earthly lifetime) to have believed that he was the messiah, the son of God. That reasoning resonated with me. It is one of multiple reasons why I personally believe in the divinity of Jesus.

Much of this stuff is just "faith" and you have to have some of that to believe. We can't scientifically, or historically prove much of what is in the scriptures, but for people like me, there is enough there to get me that kernel of faith from which I am able to believe the things that are not scientifically provable. I believe much of the old testament is not to be taken literally. I believe the new testament is factually correct in describing the life of Jesus and the early church afterward.

Great topic.

Former Christian here. Maybe Jesus believed it himself? Good and wise people can be wrong about things, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was raised protestant christian and as I've gotten older I have grown more skeptical. I am now a parent and we do attend church (a very progressive congregation but not UU). I don't tell my daughter anything is "fact" (for example heaven). I just tell her that Jesus was a teacher and that we don't exactly know what happens when you die. She has not yet been baptized because I don't know how I feel about that. I think I may let her decide when she is older.

Regarding what I put in bold. I remember reading something from CS Lewis years ago on this topic. Lewis would forcefully refute what you've said about Jesus being just a teacher. He said something to the effect that it was not possible for Jesus to have been "merely a good and wise religious philosopher" (I'm quoting for emphasis, not becuase those are Lewis' exact words). Lewis reasoned that if Jesus was merely a good and wise teacher then it would have been truly evil for him to have allowed the many thousands of people who were his followers (during his own earthly lifetime) to have believed that he was the messiah, the son of God. That reasoning resonated with me. It is one of multiple reasons why I personally believe in the divinity of Jesus.

Much of this stuff is just "faith" and you have to have some of that to believe. We can't scientifically, or historically prove much of what is in the scriptures, but for people like me, there is enough there to get me that kernel of faith from which I am able to believe the things that are not scientifically provable. I believe much of the old testament is not to be taken literally. I believe the new testament is factually correct in describing the life of Jesus and the early church afterward.

Great topic.

Former Christian here. Maybe Jesus believed it himself? Good and wise people can be wrong about things, too.

Good point. I am 15:28. I think I approach my faith with a very signficant amount of logic. There are many reasons why I believe (and specifically why I believe in the divinity of Jesus, which is a pretty wild idea if you think about it in isolation). If you believe in the bible, and that is one of the big keys...then Jesus performed many many miracles in front of both small and very large crowds of people. Those miracles are recorded in the Gospels. The Gospels were written roughly between 20 and 50 years after Jesus died. Lots of people saw those miracles. Paul the Apostle wrote of some of them in his epistles as well. It seems logical to me that if Jesus really didn't do those miracles, then people would have confronted the early Church leaders by calling bull on this. If that is the case, I am not aware of it. So I conclude (mostly because of logic, but I admit also based in part on faith) that Jesus really did do those miracles, including raising Lazarus from the dead. That particular miracle story is, to me, the most blatant display of supernatural power attributed to Jesus. Moreover, he performed that miracle in front of an entire village of people. Additionally, he intentionally waited a couple of days before doing this, just so this particular miracle would be more impactful to those witnessing it. It is an awesome story (if you believe it).

Also, every one of the 12 Apostles, with the exception of John the Beloved, was Martyred. Logically, (not based on faith, but on logic) I find it somewhat difficult to beleive that these men who were closest to Jesus, would go to their deaths professing something that they knew to be a lie. I know your entire point is that Jesus and those close to him may have actually believed it themselves, but I make this point for any who might think they were just making the whole thing up. This goes to my original point that it would actually be an act of evil to intentionally decieve people about Jesus. Because I agree with CS Lewis, I find it illogical to conclude that Jesus was a "good person" but was not divine. My faith makes this easy, but logic points me in the same direction.

Please don't take this as me proselytizing to you or arguing with you. Hopefully it is an interesting discussion and not a disagreement or an argument.

[Anonymous]

My logic takes me in another direction. Is it logical to assume there is life after death? I feel like it isn't logical or scientific. But I guess it would depend somewhat on what your definition of "afterlife" is. I certainly don't believe it is anything like the life we have here on earth.

[Anonymous]

You are right, it is not logical to assume that there is life after death. I guess my approach to different specific beliefs is kind of like using building blocks.

Logically I believe in Jesus partly because of reasons I stated in 11:36. Because of this belief I believe things he said and taught. He said to a thief on the cross next to him "Surely you will be with me in paradise". So, I buy into heaven because of that.

But if you don't believe in Jesus (at least for Christian beliefs) then heaven and hell probably do seem kinda made up. I totally get that.

I put a lot of time and much thought and prayer into my process of coming to believe the things I do. If you will permit me to get way out there...I beleive that Jesus founded a Church and that the Catholic church (with its many many well documented flaws) is the best representation of that Church. I believe this deep down. I pray for unity of Christian denominations because of this belief. Because I believe that Christ founded this Church, I believe that this Church has authority to teach on matters of faith and morals. Becuase I believe in that authority, I do my best to submit to that authority, even when sometimes I would not come to the same conclusion.

So that is my building block approach. It works for me in a way that picking and choosing certain doctrines to support and not support just doesn't. I'm far from the perfect Christian, but for me, this approach is the most logical.

That said, sometimes my Church drives me nuts!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was raised protestant christian and as I've gotten older I have grown more skeptical. I am now a parent and we do attend church (a very progressive congregation but not UU). I don't tell my daughter anything is "fact" (for example heaven). I just tell her that Jesus was a teacher and that we don't exactly know what happens when you die. She has not yet been baptized because I don't know how I feel about that. I think I may let her decide when she is older.

Regarding what I put in bold. I remember reading something from CS Lewis years ago on this topic. Lewis would forcefully refute what you've said about Jesus being just a teacher. He said something to the effect that it was not possible for Jesus to have been "merely a good and wise religious philosopher" (I'm quoting for emphasis, not becuase those are Lewis' exact words). Lewis reasoned that if Jesus was merely a good and wise teacher then it would have been truly evil for him to have allowed the many thousands of people who were his followers (during his own earthly lifetime) to have believed that he was the messiah, the son of God. That reasoning resonated with me. It is one of multiple reasons why I personally believe in the divinity of Jesus.

Much of this stuff is just "faith" and you have to have some of that to believe. We can't scientifically, or historically prove much of what is in the scriptures, but for people like me, there is enough there to get me that kernel of faith from which I am able to believe the things that are not scientifically provable. I believe much of the old testament is not to be taken literally. I believe the new testament is factually correct in describing the life of Jesus and the early church afterward.

Great topic.

Former Christian here. Maybe Jesus believed it himself? Good and wise people can be wrong about things, too.

Good point. I am 15:28. I think I approach my faith with a very signficant amount of logic. There are many reasons why I believe (and specifically why I believe in the divinity of Jesus, which is a pretty wild idea if you think about it in isolation). If you believe in the bible, and that is one of the big keys...then Jesus performed many many miracles in front of both small and very large crowds of people. Those miracles are recorded in the Gospels. The Gospels were written roughly between 20 and 50 years after Jesus died. Lots of people saw those miracles. Paul the Apostle wrote of some of them in his epistles as well. It seems logical to me that if Jesus really didn't do those miracles, then people would have confronted the early Church leaders by calling bull on this. If that is the case, I am not aware of it. So I conclude (mostly because of logic, but I admit also based in part on faith) that Jesus really did do those miracles, including raising Lazarus from the dead. That particular miracle story is, to me, the most blatant display of supernatural power attributed to Jesus. Moreover, he performed that miracle in front of an entire village of people. Additionally, he intentionally waited a couple of days before doing this, just so this particular miracle would be more impactful to those witnessing it. It is an awesome story (if you believe it).

Also, every one of the 12 Apostles, with the exception of John the Beloved, was Martyred. Logically, (not based on faith, but on logic) I find it somewhat difficult to beleive that these men who were closest to Jesus, would go to their deaths professing something that they knew to be a lie. I know your entire point is that Jesus and those close to him may have actually believed it themselves, but I make this point for any who might think they were just making the whole thing up. This goes to my original point that it would actually be an act of evil to intentionally decieve people about Jesus. Because I agree with CS Lewis, I find it illogical to conclude that Jesus was a "good person" but was not divine. My faith makes this easy, but logic points me in the same direction.

Please don't take this as me proselytizing to you or arguing with you. Hopefully it is an interesting discussion and not a disagreement or an argument.

Not sure "I believe Jesus was the son of God because I believe in the Bible" is particularly "logical".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was raised protestant christian and as I've gotten older I have grown more skeptical. I am now a parent and we do attend church (a very progressive congregation but not UU). I don't tell my daughter anything is "fact" (for example heaven). I just tell her that Jesus was a teacher and that we don't exactly know what happens when you die. She has not yet been baptized because I don't know how I feel about that. I think I may let her decide when she is older.

Regarding what I put in bold. I remember reading something from CS Lewis years ago on this topic. Lewis would forcefully refute what you've said about Jesus being just a teacher. He said something to the effect that it was not possible for Jesus to have been "merely a good and wise religious philosopher" (I'm quoting for emphasis, not becuase those are Lewis' exact words). Lewis reasoned that if Jesus was merely a good and wise teacher then it would have been truly evil for him to have allowed the many thousands of people who were his followers (during his own earthly lifetime) to have believed that he was the messiah, the son of God. That reasoning resonated with me. It is one of multiple reasons why I personally believe in the divinity of Jesus.

Much of this stuff is just "faith" and you have to have some of that to believe. We can't scientifically, or historically prove much of what is in the scriptures, but for people like me, there is enough there to get me that kernel of faith from which I am able to believe the things that are not scientifically provable. I believe much of the old testament is not to be taken literally. I believe the new testament is factually correct in describing the life of Jesus and the early church afterward.

Great topic.

Former Christian here. Maybe Jesus believed it himself? Good and wise people can be wrong about things, too.

Good point. I am 15:28. I think I approach my faith with a very signficant amount of logic. There are many reasons why I believe (and specifically why I believe in the divinity of Jesus, which is a pretty wild idea if you think about it in isolation). If you believe in the bible, and that is one of the big keys...then Jesus performed many many miracles in front of both small and very large crowds of people. Those miracles are recorded in the Gospels. The Gospels were written roughly between 20 and 50 years after Jesus died. Lots of people saw those miracles. Paul the Apostle wrote of some of them in his epistles as well. It seems logical to me that if Jesus really didn't do those miracles, then people would have confronted the early Church leaders by calling bull on this. If that is the case, I am not aware of it. So I conclude (mostly because of logic, but I admit also based in part on faith) that Jesus really did do those miracles, including raising Lazarus from the dead. That particular miracle story is, to me, the most blatant display of supernatural power attributed to Jesus. Moreover, he performed that miracle in front of an entire village of people. Additionally, he intentionally waited a couple of days before doing this, just so this particular miracle would be more impactful to those witnessing it. It is an awesome story (if you believe it).

Also, every one of the 12 Apostles, with the exception of John the Beloved, was Martyred. Logically, (not based on faith, but on logic) I find it somewhat difficult to beleive that these men who were closest to Jesus, would go to their deaths professing something that they knew to be a lie. I know your entire point is that Jesus and those close to him may have actually believed it themselves, but I make this point for any who might think they were just making the whole thing up. This goes to my original point that it would actually be an act of evil to intentionally decieve people about Jesus. Because I agree with CS Lewis, I find it illogical to conclude that Jesus was a "good person" but was not divine. My faith makes this easy, but logic points me in the same direction.

Please don't take this as me proselytizing to you or arguing with you. Hopefully it is an interesting discussion and not a disagreement or an argument.

Not sure "I believe Jesus was the son of God because I believe in the Bible" is particularly "logical".

I don't think that's what PP's argument boiled down to, but:

Do you believe all four gospels and all of the letters of the apostles were made up? If so, how did so many different people, from different backgrounds and places and faiths and levels of education and temperaments, all write something so profound, so revolutionary, so wise, so different, so unique? For what purpose? They all died horrible deaths, except John. Where did the conspiracy start? Was Jesus Himself made up? How so? These were all real places, real people. Eyewitness accounts. Rudimentary forms of communication. Ideas beyond anything humans at the time had ever imagined, but which resonated and transformed their listeners.

There comes a point that intellectual honesty demands that you confront the person Jesus. If you do so, you soon realize there are a limited number of rational possibilities. And the conclusion that He was, in fact, Who He claimed to be, is not irrational.

[Anonymous]

OP here. To all those posters who were once religious but are no longer believing, on your death bed, do you think you will make peace with god ? or will you stand firm in your current beliefs?

[Anonymous]

Having strong morals and raising kids with strong morals has nothing to do with religion and going to church.

I was raised atheist and I feel no guilt and I live a completely honest and humble life. I speak to my kids about moral and behavioral issues all the time. We don't need a higher being to know what is right and what is wrong.

My father was raised atheist as well and he is getting to the end of his life (complete with several illnesses). If anything, he has become more strongly atheist as he has gotten closer to his death bed. He is happy and upbeat and has a strong realization that his relationships in the here and now are important ... and not because of anything that might happen after he dies, just because the here and now is important.

Don't be afraid of something you don't need to be. On your death bed you will want to have no regrets. So live your life with no regrets, be honest, love your children and guide them to be good people, cherish your family and friends, and stop feeling guilty!

[Anonymous]

I am 15:28 again. To, 21:46 your response to 18:01 is probably better worded than I'd have put it. This issue is a pretty hard one to tackle on a message board (but fun anyway) and it is much more complex and nuanced than "I believe the one thing because I believe the other."

[Anonymous]

For those who believe - do you feel other religions are "wrong" or those individuals won't go to heaven? That is one of my problems with believing whole heartedly in Christianity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For those who believe - do you feel other religions are "wrong" or those individuals won't go to heaven? That is one of my problems with believing whole heartedly in Christianity.

I believe there is one God. People with a faith in God who live meaningful lives in accordance with the peaceful and honorable traits of their religion go to heaven.
Evil people of whatever religious or non-religious persuasion go to hell.
Atheists I honestly don't know. I believe that God forgives and perhaps there's a last chance for redemption if you've led a good, although god-less, life. Many parts of the bible though say that non-believers and those who reject God go to hell. I hope that's not the case in every case, even though I do believe atheists are wrong.

Simplistic, but I kind of think along these lines.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For those who believe - do you feel other religions are "wrong" or those individuals won't go to heaven? That is one of my problems with believing whole heartedly in Christianity.

The quote below is from paragraph 847 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

"847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337"

Do I feel other religions are wrong? My answer (yes) may seem judgemental in a way I do not mean at all. If I thought another religion, or another Christian denomination was more "right", then I would follow that denomination. I am a catholic because I believe catholicism, with its faults, is still the closest thing we have to the Church founded by Jesus when he commissioned Peter and the other apostles to go out into the world. Do I think Lutherans, or Baptists won't go to heaven...no I don't think that (my wife is Presbyterian and I am confident of her salvation).

Personally, I am more judgemental about cafeteria catholics than I am about people from other faith traditions. I'm not proud of that, but it is true. My thought is that one who is religious should be committed. I think that if you are a Lutheran, be a really good Lutheran...etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those who believe - do you feel other religions are "wrong" or those individuals won't go to heaven? That is one of my problems with believing whole heartedly in Christianity.

The quote below is from paragraph 847 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

"847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337"

Do I feel other religions are wrong? My answer (yes) may seem judgemental in a way I do not mean at all. If I thought another religion, or another Christian denomination was more "right", then I would follow that denomination. I am a catholic because I believe catholicism, with its faults, is still the closest thing we have to the Church founded by Jesus when he commissioned Peter and the other apostles to go out into the world. Do I think Lutherans, or Baptists won't go to heaven...no I don't think that (my wife is Presbyterian and I am confident of her salvation).

Personally, I am more judgemental about cafeteria catholics than I am about people from other faith traditions. I'm not proud of that, but it is true. My thought is that one who is religious should be committed. I think that if you are a Lutheran, be a really good Lutheran...etc.

I was asking about non-Christian faiths such as Islam and Buddhism. I see all the churches that believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God - to be one church in a way.

[Anonymous]

I rejected my familial religious beliefs when I developed a mind of my own around age 12.

I believe in karma, the golden rule, etc., but buying into any organized religion's b.s. is simply foolish IMO.

THis is the one area in which I think Karl Marx was right: Religion is the opiate of the masses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. To all those posters who were once religious but are no longer believing, on your death bed, do you think you will make peace with god ? or will you stand firm in your current beliefs?

Atheist, raised Muslim. No, I do not think I will make peace with god - I wouldn't know which specific god to make peace with, there's so many of them! I think I'd hope for a painless, easy death. And that loved ones will continue to make good use of their lives on earth. But that's about it.