McCain just lost the judgement card

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm curious. Does anyone know how hard McCain worked to get into the Naval Academy? Did he have the grades and the references (teachers, not dad) he needed or did he get in primarily through connections?

It sounds like you don't understand much about how the service academies work. The legacy factor is exceptionally strong in the service academies. There was no real chance McCain would fail to get into the Naval Academy. Tradition is of tremendous importance. There is also a strong tradition of what's called "the good-bad cadet" within the academies. Of course these traditions benefit white men, but they are hardly unique to McCain's experience.

Well, that would be why I asked the question, wouldn't it?
Sarcasm aside, thanks for your feedback on it. I really have no idea how these things work with regard to the service academies.

Sorry, I truly didn't mean to be sarcastic. I have friends who attended service academies and a friend who wrote a book about West Point's class of 1966, and because of that I wrongly imagine that many people have the same information about them that I do. I apologize for appearing sarcastic. In general, though, the service academics certainly don't carry the cachet of Columbia or Harvard, and I imagine that's part of the basis for characterizing Ivies as elitist. In many jurisdictions now, it's difficult to get enough applicants for the academies. Although they offer a tremendous and free education, their rigor and post-graduate service requirements seem to turn off many young people now. And a couple of the people I know who attended were women, and their experience was just a nightmare.
Again, my apologies for appearing rude.

Oh no, it's my turn to apologize. I meant that I was being sarcastic in my first sentence.

Do you think that in McCain's time it was as hard to get applicants? After all, there was a draft so young men had to have their strategies figured out. My mom once told me that her father, a big deal in the steel industry, pulled strings to get my father into Naval ROTC in college so he could avoid be drafted into the army during Korea. So I figured that during Vietnam some young men would rather be at the Naval Academy than being drafted into the army. And I had always heard that you had to be nominated by a member of Congress and the process sounded quite difficult.

(FWIW, I believe my grandfather also pulled strings to get my dad assigned to a minesweeper in the Mediterranean during the Korean War -- among other favors he did for my dad -- who at that time in his life bore some similarity to W in terms of not living up to family expectations. And my brother who ended up having a high lottery number during Vietnam told me recently that mom said we would have called on the same connections to get him a break. So I'm very cynical about the power of wealthy families to get what they want.)

So from what you're saying, it sounds like it would have been possible for McCain to get in today without family help given the dearth of applicants. Do you think that at the time he did get in that it would have been possible? Any thoughts on that?

Thanks again for the info.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Oh no, it's my turn to apologize. I meant that I was being sarcastic in my first sentence.

Do you think that in McCain's time it was as hard to get applicants? After all, there was a draft so young men had to have their strategies figured out. My mom once told me that her father, a big deal in the steel industry, pulled strings to get my father into Naval ROTC in college so he could avoid be drafted into the army during Korea. So I figured that during Vietnam some young men would rather be at the Naval Academy than being drafted into the army. And I had always heard that you had to be nominated by a member of Congress and the process sounded quite difficult.

(FWIW, I believe my grandfather also pulled strings to get my dad assigned to a minesweeper in the Mediterranean during the Korean War -- among other favors he did for my dad -- who at that time in his life bore some similarity to W in terms of not living up to family expectations. And my brother who ended up having a high lottery number during Vietnam told me recently that mom said we would have called on the same connections to get him a break. So I'm very cynical about the power of wealthy families to get what they want.)

So from what you're saying, it sounds like it would have been possible for McCain to get in today without family help given the dearth of applicants. Do you think that at the time he did get in that it would have been possible? Any thoughts on that?

Thanks again for the info.

Each member of Congress can recommend up to 10 candidates for each academy. Senators can also make recommendations. The process sounds more rigorous than it is, perhaps; you apply and are interviewed by your congressman's service academy advisory committee. You don't have to know the congressional recommender personally and usually don't even meet them. I can only speculate, but certainly there were many more applicants in McCain's time and it would have been more difficult to get in. Still, I'm sure he would have been an automatic admit. Legacies have preference at any private university, but that's even more true at the academies. And he came from a long line of not just career navy men, but admirals. That's huge. From what I understand, the pressure to not only attend but to excel at the academy would have been enormous. I imagine he felt he had almost no choice. You can even see the role of tradition in the huge percentage of sixties academy attendees who had Jr., III, or even IV after their names. Dad is a career military man, he went to West Point or the Naval Academy, he handed his name down to you, and you carry on those traditions. Yikes.

I don't think anyone would have seen West Point or the Naval Academy as a safer option during Vietnam. Attending West Point, at least, was an almost guaranteed ticket to Vietnam. Almost everyone in the Class of '66 went, for example, and many were killed. The kill rate for junior officers in Vietnam is well known, and the West Pointers came out as lieutenants who pretty much took command of patrols the day they arrived. Some got safe assignments behind the front lines, but not most. I would assume the same was true for those coming out of USNA: You knew you'd be coming out and going to Vietnam. So attending a service academy was in no way analogous to joining the National Guard, like W. Quite the opposite. I'm no McCain fan, but his experience in the 60s and early 70s is, in fact, something I respect. And something I hope my son never, ever has to experience.

[Anonymous]

12:19 here again -- thanks for the info. Very interesting! Will never vote for him but McCain does have a fascinating history. Both he and Obama have worked through different stories about what it means to be a man in our society.

I'd love to see someone write a classic Victorian novel style book about all this when it is over. There are so many interesting personal narratives....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Independent minded might be naivete. Question: Is there a graduate degree between those two?
He was at the BOTTOM of his class in Navy, she has a degree in communications...???

Let's not hear anymore about unqualified Black men like Obama or Clarence Thomas.
Ahem. Um. Flame me, but it must be fun being White.

I posted this. I did not mean that McCain made it into Naval because he is White. I just wanted to point out that if a Black man had an undergraduate degree from an average school in a not so challenging major, the critics would be all over him, if he ran for Pres or VP.

I agree that we should be careful about criticizing education since much of the voting public has not much more education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Independent minded might be naivete. Question: Is there a graduate degree between those two?
He was at the BOTTOM of his class in Navy, she has a degree in communications...???

Let's not hear anymore about unqualified Black men like Obama or Clarence Thomas.
Ahem. Um. Flame me, but it must be fun being White.

I posted this. I did not mean that McCain made it into Naval because he is White. I just wanted to point out that if a Black man had an undergraduate degree from an average school in a not so challenging major, the critics would be all over him, if he ran for Pres or VP.

I agree that we should be careful about criticizing education since much of the voting public has not much more education.

I hear you, but again. . . . Joe Biden was near the bottom of his class at the University of Delaware (really not too impressive) and at Syracuse law. No one's criticizing him, and he's white as can be.

[Anonymous]

Biden got slapped down in the past because of academics. He is a little bit ahead of Palin from an academic standpoint, but much more experienced.
I think that she was picked to scoop up young white republicans (gives them a little hope), conservative Christians who promised to stay home in November, and the HRC supporters who don't want a Black man to be President. She's one stop shopping.

[Anonymous]

Palin's lack of education would not be an issue if she had any professional accomplishments. It is the absence of both that is the problem. She is not just lacking in foreign policy she is lacking in any real knowledge or experience on nation-wide domestic issues such as healthcare or the economy. I don't think her affiliation with Alaska oil gives as much knowledge on energy issues as they may want you to believe. The energy issue is complex and is not going to be solved by just drilling throughout Alaska and national park land as she suggests. The energy issue is about technology, industries beyond oil drillers, tax incentives, economic incentives, workforce options, foreign policy, and many other facets.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:McCain only met her once, for 15 minutes, and then had a 5 minute phone conversation. The next time they talked, he offered her the job. So, McCain doesn't really know anything about her either.

I find this hard to believe.

[Anonymous]

"I find this hard to believe."

Well, believe it. Its one of the many problems with this pick. While the extreme social conservatives are dancing about resusitating the pro life movement in this election, the moderate Republicans and the fiscal conservatives are giving him as much grief as everyone else for choosing poorly and more importantly rashly without consideration of the implications. This will undermine his ability to claim he will exercise good judgement. This isn't just a dumb move it is a dangerous one if he does win.

Do you want your national security riding on someone who didn't get a passport until 2007? She has taken no position on the war. Even in her visit to Kuwait, she responded to any questions about timetables, the surge, or other foreign policy issues with she didn't have a position but was just there to see what the Alaskan troops needed.

[Anonymous]

First, they came for the polar bears, but I was not a polar bear so I did not care,

...then, they came for the douglas fir trees who had became infested with bark beatles and took out 4 million of them when the temperatures rose over a decade, but I wasn't a douglas fir tree so I did not care...

..then, they came for the environmentalists, but I was not an environmentalist so I did not care...

[Anonymous]

This lady is down for hunting and shooting animals from the air (helicopters), doesn’t think polar bears should be put on the endangered species list because it could hurt hopes of drilling, believes creationism should be taught in schools as an alternative to evolution, voted against women’s right to chose, voted against women’s right for equal pay, had her employees threaten high officials to get them to fire a state trooper (presumably because he divorced her sister). Tearing this woman apart is going to be way easy. She is more against women’s rights then McCain himself.

[Anonymous]

I will say that if we laugh at her too much, she becomes a victim, a damsel in distress. Then the right mobilizes to elect her. Much in the way DC residents re-elected Marion Barry, after the FBI humiliated him.

Let the mess speak for itself.