anyone hear-- there's a GT forum for MoCo

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A big problem is that parents get worried that their kid is on the low track, so they won't get into the MS magnet, and then they won't get into the HS magnet, and then their college choices will be disappointing. (I know, I totally know, with magnet kids of my own I'm totally aware about competition from other magnet kids for those HS magnet and college spots, also that kids not in magnets are equally smart because there just isn't enough room in the magnet programs, et cetera.) This is definitely how lots of parents see it. So they push to get their kids into accelerated tracks. Because if you're in on-grade math it's almost impossible to jump to above-grade math the next year, and then you have less of a chance for the Takoma magnet.... The result is a lot of kids who aren't prepared for acceleration, but Mommy and Daddy pushed for it.

To me, the solution is not to fight peoples' natural protectiveness of their kids. The solution is to offer more selective programs, so the pressure is reduced to get your kid into one of the 2 MS magnets, or one of the 3 HS magnets (well, 2 magnets plus CAP). I hate to be like this, but for many parents, some of the downcounty "choice" schools just aren't substitutes just because they aren't selective but are by lottery. (And I'm not giving Poolesville it's due, but for many of us, Poolesville isn't an option for boundary reasons and we just have the 3 HS choices).

So how about a high school magnet that actually does literature and creative writing, and not so much journalism like at CAP? How about another IB magnet, given the obvious excess demand for the existing one at RM (1/9 are accepted)? Maybe a performing arts magnet with auditions?

I totally agree with this, particularly the part about the performing arts magnet!

Problem is, this costs money. Also, MoCo probably doesn't care what parents want, they're patting us on the head with a few HS magnets that take a fraction of the kids who are qualified and could do well at these magnets.

Rant over....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I subscribed to that forum briefly looking for info on GT Magnets. It was terrible. Basically huge numbers of back and forths between a very small ( and very opinionated) group of people. Probably one of them was the same person who put in all the posts we are seeing here. I dropped it quickly.

I agree. I subscribe, but I delete half the emails I get from that forum. It really is a handful of people. I can't really tell what motivates some of them, which would affect my perception of their points. Plus several seem to be having running spats among themselves. Basically I use it to learn *what's* going on rather than, necessarily, how I should feel about what's going on.

The GT forum mentioned here is not a yahoo/google forum rather than a meeting with MCPS Superintendent and AEI. In this meeting parents are supposed to learn a little about MCPS's thinking on GT education and provide feedback about what direction MCPS should take. Just want to clarify so that no one confused about forum as in a discussion group and forum as a meeting.

[Anonymous]

OK, thanks, my mistake.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The schools are sort of stuck. They have 5 kids that are quite ready for accelleration but the average class sive is 28..so they need to have 20+ kids in the accelerated class to make it work numbers wise. My older child was way over accelerated based on on absolutely no data that said he should skip so many years. My younger child is taking 4th grade math for the 3rd time because they stopped accleration entirely. He had perfect test scores last year (gr 3) on 4 and 5 math and is still in 4+ this year because they will not accelerate anyone anymore. Gotta love MCPS!

You are so correct. When my DS was in 5th grade there wer about 5 kids out of 30 in his math class who were ready for 7th grade in the 1st qtr itself, but could not be taught at that level since the school had no path after 6th grade Math avilable. At the sametime, the same accelerated class had kids who did not understand franction/%/decimal by third quarter. The teacher had tough time teaching the class.

The real solution would be to test kids every year on each core subject (forget calling it GT, rather call it academic placement) and place them at the right class based on their preparedness rather than age!

Honestly, in our experience, the part of your quote that I bolded is a result of pretty crappy teaching of the %/decimal/fraction concepts and a failure to convey to the parent that your kid has to memorize these equivalents in addition to understanding the underlying theory.

Somehow my child got thru fractions without understanding that the fraction bar means divide and that a fraction is also a part/whole ratio and so can be used to solve ratio problems. The reason was that the teacher never taught these concepts, she just taught the kids how to solve the particular problems by rote memorization of steps, not understanding the underlying math.

It's not an acceleration problem, it's a crappy teaching problem. There are some kids who enter a grade already knowing this or being able to see it really quickly. There are others, who have good test scores and other indicators which flag them as kids who should be able to learn with when exposed to proper teaching, but the proper teaching bit is the stumbling block .....(IMO)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A big problem is that parents get worried that their kid is on the low track, so they won't get into the MS magnet, and then they won't get into the HS magnet, and then their college choices will be disappointing. (I know, I totally know, with magnet kids of my own I'm totally aware about competition from other magnet kids for those HS magnet and college spots, also that kids not in magnets are equally smart because there just isn't enough room in the magnet programs, et cetera.) This is definitely how lots of parents see it. So they push to get their kids into accelerated tracks. Because if you're in on-grade math it's almost impossible to jump to above-grade math the next year, and then you have less of a chance for the Takoma magnet.... The result is a lot of kids who aren't prepared for acceleration, but Mommy and Daddy pushed for it.

To me, the solution is not to fight peoples' natural protectiveness of their kids. The solution is to offer more selective programs, so the pressure is reduced to get your kid into one of the 2 MS magnets, or one of the 3 HS magnets (well, 2 magnets plus CAP). I hate to be like this, but for many parents, some of the downcounty "choice" schools just aren't substitutes just because they aren't selective but are by lottery. (And I'm not giving Poolesville it's due, but for many of us, Poolesville isn't an option for boundary reasons and we just have the 3 HS choices).

So how about a high school magnet that actually does literature and creative writing, and not so much journalism like at CAP? How about another IB magnet, given the obvious excess demand for the existing one at RM (1/9 are accepted)? Maybe a performing arts magnet with auditions?

I totally agree with this, particularly the part about the performing arts magnet!

Problem is, this costs money. Also, MoCo probably doesn't care what parents want, they're patting us on the head with a few HS magnets that take a fraction of the kids who are qualified and could do well at these magnets.

Rant over....

It's annoying constantly hearing that we parents push the school to accelerate little Johnny or Joan. Really? B/c with two "advanced" kids of my own, I can tell you that my children's teachers have chosen their math placement just like they have chosen their reading groups and homeroom teachers. Even when I worried about over-acceleration, our child showed what he could really do when his teachers challenged him. Do I want him to get into the MS magnet? Sure, b/c that's where he belongs given his strengths and what he loves. And it's likely his friends will be there. That's what's important at his age.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It's annoying constantly hearing that we parents push the school to accelerate little Johnny or Joan. Really? B/c with two "advanced" kids of my own, I can tell you that my children's teachers have chosen their math placement just like they have chosen their reading groups and homeroom teachers. Even when I worried about over-acceleration, our child showed what he could really do when his teachers challenged him. Do I want him to get into the MS magnet? Sure, b/c that's where he belongs given his strengths and what he loves. And it's likely his friends will be there. That's what's important at his age.

Agreed. The school approached US about our daughter's math grade skip. Ditto with our son -- I never asked for him to be skipped, the school looked at the data (the pre-assessment given in the beginning of the year) and started him in math 1 year ahead. For both kids, their pre-tests showed that they already knew the upcoming year's material. Why should they sit through a year of material they already know? That's a recipe for disengagement and misbehavior due to boredom.

[Anonymous]

I'm fine with the notion that the school places kids ahead and makes sure they are getting the material that is right for them (even if it means accelerating). But, at our school the uptight parents who pester the principal about class placement are all-too-often rewarded with a class change for their child. I think the principal does this to get the parents off his back (it isn't necessarily in the best interest of the child). I think these are the kids who, in the end, suffer because of unnecessary acceleration.
In our E.S., there are kids in accelerated math who have tutors in order to keep up or to not "stress out" over the homework. That seems really wrong and unproductive.

[Anonymous]

What about kids accelerated in math in the school system but are tutored in Calculus and computer programming while in elementary or middle school? Do you want to stop that too because you disagree, don't do it, or can't afford it?

Who really cares?

If the kid can't hack it tutors may not help. If they do by some miracle then what's wrong with it? I see kids everyday who play on the school sporting team (soccer) and then later getting tutored and coached on the club sporting team (soccer) and no one is complaining? Same for music (school band or orchestra then later private music coach)?

This is American society. Let's ban all tutors and coaches (math, sports, music, language) to make PP happy?

[Anonymous]

I think you are missing the point. If the child needs a tutor to do advanced work, he is NOT advanced. This type of artificial advancement backfires.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A big problem is that parents get worried that their kid is on the low track, so they won't get into the MS magnet, and then they won't get into the HS magnet, and then their college choices will be disappointing. (I know, I totally know, with magnet kids of my own I'm totally aware about competition from other magnet kids for those HS magnet and college spots, also that kids not in magnets are equally smart because there just isn't enough room in the magnet programs, et cetera.) This is definitely how lots of parents see it. So they push to get their kids into accelerated tracks. Because if you're in on-grade math it's almost impossible to jump to above-grade math the next year, and then you have less of a chance for the Takoma magnet.... The result is a lot of kids who aren't prepared for acceleration, but Mommy and Daddy pushed for it.

To me, the solution is not to fight peoples' natural protectiveness of their kids. The solution is to offer more selective programs, so the pressure is reduced to get your kid into one of the 2 MS magnets, or one of the 3 HS magnets (well, 2 magnets plus CAP). I hate to be like this, but for many parents, some of the downcounty "choice" schools just aren't substitutes just because they aren't selective but are by lottery. (And I'm not giving Poolesville it's due, but for many of us, Poolesville isn't an option for boundary reasons and we just have the 3 HS choices).

So how about a high school magnet that actually does literature and creative writing, and not so much journalism like at CAP? How about another IB magnet, given the obvious excess demand for the existing one at RM (1/9 are accepted)? Maybe a performing arts magnet with auditions?

I totally agree with this, particularly the part about the performing arts magnet!

Problem is, this costs money. Also, MoCo probably doesn't care what parents want, they're patting us on the head with a few HS magnets that take a fraction of the kids who are qualified and could do well at these magnets.

Rant over....

It's annoying constantly hearing that we parents push the school to accelerate little Johnny or Joan. Really? B/c with two "advanced" kids of my own, I can tell you that my children's teachers have chosen their math placement just like they have chosen their reading groups and homeroom teachers. Even when I worried about over-acceleration, our child showed what he could really do when his teachers challenged him. Do I want him to get into the MS magnet? Sure, b/c that's where he belongs given his strengths and what he loves. And it's likely his friends will be there. That's what's important at his age.

That's my quote at the top. I never said that no kid belongs in a magnet! My own kids are in magnets. However, it's hard to miss the stories of parents who pushed for advancement and got it. Another poster above said she's seen it too. It's definitely there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
That's my quote at the top. I never said that no kid belongs in a magnet! My own kids are in magnets. However, it's hard to miss the stories of parents who pushed for advancement and got it. Another poster above said she's seen it too. It's definitely there.

Some time parents push for unnecessary advancement, sometime school pushes to show they have enough diversity in the advanced class. Either case, the problem is there is no entry and exit criteria and testing against those criteria. That is the main problem of some kids feeling totally bored and others feeling overwhelmed in advanced classes. A matuared school system should have entry and exit criteria for acceleration year to year.

[Anonymous]

The problem comes with the definition of gifted. MCPS basically considers any kid who performs above grade level in math and reading to be gifted. MoCO being what it is, a very large number of kids fit this description. I think I have read 40%. [/b]So if you ahve 40% of kids performing above grade level, but you aim your curriculum at getting kids to perform at grade level, 40% of kdis are not getting the challenge they need, and their parents are frustrated. There are lots of parents who want their children to be challenged ins chool, but people get defensive and irritated about that because of the use of the word "gifted." maybe they should just call it challenge or enrichment or acceleration, and people's panties wouldn't get twisted.

To me, "above grade level in reading and math" means "above average, not "gifted." This sounds very Lake Wobegon to me. I think there's a difference between "above average" and "gifted." When I was growing up, the definition of GT was very different. But I didn't grow up here, so maybe that's why.

So true. It seems like the forum has a few people wanting to hang on to the belief of above grade in reading and math means gifted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

To me, "above grade level in reading and math" means "above average, not "gifted." This sounds very Lake Wobegon to me. I think there's a difference between "above average" and "gifted." When I was growing up, the definition of GT was very different. But I didn't grow up here, so maybe that's why.

So true. It seems like the forum has a few people wanting to hang on to the belief of above grade in reading and math means gifted.

I am a reader (as opposed the posters) of the said forum. I do not like the constant bickering. However, I see a more nuanced thought process. It is more complicated than few people wanting to hang on to a label. Let me explain why I think so.

MSDE requires local school system to identify students who require services beyond what the regular school system provides and to provide accelerated services to meet the need of these students. MCPS implements this identification as "GT" and has watered down the criteria for selecting students to the GT pool. MCPS also has the magnet school programs which it claims is geared to HG population (even though I know for sure the selection criteria is not just academic giftedness), yet acknowledges that the magnet schools do not have enough seats to accommodate all the HG students.

So, the local schools are still left with many HG and some significantly academically advanced students. Since there is no MCPS policy recognition to call this group anything else, most parents do not want the label taken away. Because, guess what, once the label is gone these parents have no policy support to ask for services.

[Anonymous]

I agree "above grade level in reading and math" means "above average, not "gifted." It seems there are some parents who gang up on anyone who disagree with their Lake Wobegon mentality. They seem to be anonymously posting on various email lists trying to get a crowd to join them in confronting Starr. They seem to have a thing against the Super because he just recognizes gifted the way most people think of it.

I found wading through the emails really useful. It kinds gave me an idea about the MoCo mindset.

The GTA or whatever people seem to be really nasty. Are the kids that way too?

Any opinion will be welcome. We are thinking of moving.

[Anonymous]

Whatever your thoughts, come to the meeting, or leave a comment / question on the GTA website.

The link to the webpage, with form, is: http://www.gtamc.org/2012-gt-forum