What's upper middle class in the DC metro area?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Wouldn't we need to define what upper middle class consists of?

Agree - that's the better question since it also depends hugely on housing costs which are very heavily driven by when a family bought. So is part of the equation: either a) has a larger/new house within a 1 hour commute or b) has a non-condo home within a .5 hr commute? (So for instance, Germantown vs. Bethesda depending on what a family can afford and tolerate re: commute.) There are many government workers who live in Bethesda because they bought quite some time ago but those of us who may make more cannot afford to live there now and have to live in areas with worse school options.

My vote for the contours of an upper middle class life:
1. Home in a good school zone or else can pay for private school (This drives SO much in terms of the cost. And "good" is relative, but for instance, I would not say that all parts of MoCo are "good" - and neither would most people living in the west - espeically SW - part of MoCo. Having bought in 2005, I live in a "not very good" zone and not in a fancy McMansion either.)
2. Commute under 45 minutes
3. Single family home or a row house in a very upscale area4. enough for at least a modest vacation like the beach.
5. Money devoted to 401K
6. Money devoted to college funds
7. At least 1 car

I'm sure my 3 bedroom condo in Gerogetown is much nicer then some row house in MoCo.

[Anonymous]

The SFH or Rowhouse criterion is silly- there are billionaires who live in condos in Washington or elsewhere. I live in a 950k+ TH in North Arlington Ross-Balls corridor - I wouldn't cally it a rowhouse in a swanky area a la Georgeotwn, but it's definitely nicer "for us" than many SFHs out there. 3000 sq feet with luxury finishings- so just b/c it's not an SFH, don't think it degrades my class status!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP - Honestly, with your income, I wouldn't buy anything for over $550k anyways, so your $100k is pretty on the money for a down payment.

I think you should reevaluate what you consider "nice"...

I know, bummer, huh? "Nice" is anything that's not a dump, has more than 2 bedrooms, and is in a good hood in DC or Arlington. It's a unicorn. I guess we'll settle for a shack or the exurbs.

And this is where you lost me.

Those are not "middle class" neighborhoods. Your problem is that you want to live in the best areas and so - yes - you probably need to make closer to $400-500k to live there. BUT THAT ISN'T MIDDLE CLASS. It doesn't matter where you live - there will always be nicer neighborhoods, closer to the city or the beach or whatever, that are more expensive. No, a "middle class" income isn't going to get your there. What you are asking for is to be rich so that you can live in the nicest areas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

did you mean to say some of the east parts of the county are not the very good zones?

yes. I'm in Kennedy's zone, not Blair's, so not good and not cheap: need to either move to somewhere more expensive or else do private school.

Anybody who thinks $400k is still middle class (albeit upper middle class) REGARDLESS of the housing bubble needs a serious reality check...

Anyone who thinks that timing of a purchase around the housing bubble isn't one of THE core criteria in how you live needs a reality check. Let me guess - bought in the 90s? Decent home in Bethesda that cost you less than my crappy TH in northern SS area in 2005?
Also what's ignored from the debate is that not all jobs are as stable as government ones. I work for a trade association and so make the same amt each year. DH is in sales and one year we might make a lot (and save) and other years he won't, but each year it's the possibility of earning much less than before - kind of limits your options in terms of long-term fixed expenses like a mortgage.

Wrong on both accounts. Bought in 2004 (a TH in Alexandria). Have saved AGGRESSIVELY to buy a bigger place (but a little farther out). There are trades to everything in life. But people - whether or not you are "middle class" has NOTHING to do with when you bought your house. That has to do with your DISPOSABLE INCOME. And it isn't anybody's fault but your own that you bought too much house for your income back in 2005. Anybody with half a brain knew that there was a housing bubble in effect. You all are just crying now b/c you didn't end up on the right side of that bubble...

[Anonymous]

in NW DC proper--I'd say middle class extends to about $250K. Upper middle is then $250----??? probably $500k?

[Anonymous]

Hehe, DH and I just hit $165K HHI, and I feel like a poor grad student. We have $100K saved up for a downpayment and can't afford anything "good." We live in a 1-bedroom (in a great neighborhood!), and bank serious savings (over $5K a month in addition to maxing out retirement), but at this rate it'll be years before we can afford a nice house.

No offense, PP, but I call BS. Your numbers don't add up. Here's the math:

HHI of $165K. Figure you're paying 25% of your HHI in income and payroll taxes (federal, state, local, FICA) - and that's being optimistic. You're left with $123,750. You said you're maxing out your retirement - good for you, I assume that means two 401ks - that's another $33,000, leaving you with $90,750. You save $5000 each month, on top of retirement - that's $60k each year, leaving you with $30,750. That's $2562.50 each month. Rent on your one bedroom (in a "great neighborhood") is at least $1500 each month, right? So you're down to $1062 a month. Out of that, you pay for utilities, food, etc. Do you have a car? If not, do you have transit costs? Do you have cable? Health insurance? Deductibles? Life insurance? Belong to a gym? Ever see a movie? Have to buy a plane ticket anywhere, ever? Buy a gift for your husband or friends?

Yes, I'm bored, but your claims are preposterous. And if they're correct, you're even more ridiculous. At $5000 per month, by spring 2012 (one year away) you will have a $160,000 - $180,000 down payment saved up (depending on when you close). That's good for a 20% down payment on a $800,000 to $900,000 house. And your $5000/month savings will easily cover the mortgage, with a good bit left over. If you think that won't get you a "nice" house, you seriously need to re-evaluate your priorities.

Perhaps the "Hehe" should have given it away, PP, but you're just making things up.

[Anonymous]

I'm bored with this stupid thread. The classic difference between upper class and middle class is unearned (ie inherited) money vs earned income thru working. If you have to work you are middle class.

[Anonymous]

18:11, thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Hehe, DH and I just hit $165K HHI, and I feel like a poor grad student. We have $100K saved up for a downpayment and can't afford anything "good." We live in a 1-bedroom (in a great neighborhood!), and bank serious savings (over $5K a month in addition to maxing out retirement), but at this rate it'll be years before we can afford a nice house.

No offense, PP, but I call BS. Your numbers don't add up. Here's the math:

HHI of $165K. Figure you're paying 25% of your HHI in income and payroll taxes (federal, state, local, FICA) - and that's being optimistic. You're left with $123,750. You said you're maxing out your retirement - good for you, I assume that means two 401ks - that's another $33,000, leaving you with $90,750. You save $5000 each month, on top of retirement - that's $60k each year, leaving you with $30,750. That's $2562.50 each month. Rent on your one bedroom (in a "great neighborhood") is at least $1500 each month, right? So you're down to $1062 a month. Out of that, you pay for utilities, food, etc. Do you have a car? If not, do you have transit costs? Do you have cable? Health insurance? Deductibles? Life insurance? Belong to a gym? Ever see a movie? Have to buy a plane ticket anywhere, ever? Buy a gift for your husband or friends?

Yes, I'm bored, but your claims are preposterous. And if they're correct, you're even more ridiculous. At $5000 per month, by spring 2012 (one year away) you will have a $160,000 - $180,000 down payment saved up (depending on when you close). That's good for a 20% down payment on a $800,000 to $900,000 house. And your $5000/month savings will easily cover the mortgage, with a good bit left over. If you think that won't get you a "nice" house, you seriously need to re-evaluate your priorities.

Perhaps the "Hehe" should have given it away, PP, but you're just making things up.

I'm the PP you're talking to. Our 1-BD is $1100/month because it sort of sucks (no amenities, like no dw, no w/d, etc). It's in the awesomest part of N. Arlington, though. Utilities included. No car, walk to work (DH takes metro), no cable, but we do have smartphones, gym is free at the office for both of us. We're young, our health insurance is cheap, no supplemental life insurance in addition to what work provides (come on, why would two young DINKs without a mortgage need that!?). We spend about $400/month in groceries and eating out and the rest each month is pretty discretionary. One vacay a year, usually overseas to visit family.

I've been called a liar on DCUM just for my grocery/food bill each month (which I think is seriously high for 2 people!), so I guess I am used to these posts freaking out about how "this doesn't add up, PP." We're left with over $5K a month, according to my friend Mr. Quickbooks. But maybe you're bored, or bigger spenders than we are.

You made me feel WAY better about our savings power, though. We are still thinking like grad students in that arena (DH just got his job, I have been working a while). Thanks for the morale boost. Sadly, I wonder if waiting a year will be shooting ourselves in the foot, though...don't you think interest rates will be going way up soon?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm bored with this stupid thread. The classic difference between upper class and middle class is unearned (ie inherited) money vs earned income thru working. If you have to work you are middle class.

That's a great distinction. I've also heard that the difference between middle-class and upper-class is: middle class seeks to earn more, upper class seeks to preserve the wealth it already has. Not sure where upper-middle falls in this, but I'd guess it's families with a mix of income and wealth to be preserved.

[Anonymous]

Class is about both money and social status. A high school drop out plumber who makes $150K/year is not upper middle, but middle class. A PhD who works for an NGO but makes less is not middle class, but upper middle.

There is no bright line income, but extending past middle class requires a combination of enough means, education, and culture to be more than average.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Class is about both money and social status. A high school drop out plumber who makes $150K/year is not upper middle, but middle class. A PhD who works for an NGO but makes less is not middle class, but upper middle.

There is no bright line income, but extending past middle class requires a combination of enough means, education, and culture to be more than average.

You have said it best. It's not just money.

[Anonymous]

Yawn.

You snobs bore me. Be glad you have food on the table and a roof over your head. Stop worrying about how others perceive you.

[Anonymous]

so where do uneducated celebrity millionaires fall? l

[Anonymous]

I grew up upper middle class so I know what it feels like. With our <$250k income and <$900k home (purchased this year) we are definitely not upper middle class. Maybe comfortably middle class, as money isn't tight and we're saving, but money isn't free flowing either and we have to watch our expenses.

To live comparably to the way I grew up, upper middle class, I'd say we'd have to be making closer to $300k, and live in a house about $1.2 million using today's sale prices (for neighborhoods like Arlington, Bethesda, NW).