Falls Church City v. APS v. FCPS Advanced Academics

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The mantra on DCUM that APS teaches to the "lowest common denominator" is bullshit. The fact is, the APS elementary schools to which DCUM posters send their children are full of advantaged kids with high achieving and striving parents who don't need differentiation. Just look at the average test scores for these schools.

Every parent on DCUM thinks their child is the Christ Child and that the public schools--working with many, many kids and with limited budgets--owe it to them to take their kids away from the riff raff and provide them personally with a singularly gilded education. Nope, it doesn't work that way.

I agree with this. I have no idea why people say APS teaches to the lowest common denominator. It's just not true. I had two high achieving kids go through APS. Both were on the highest math track, both took multiple advanced classes (AP/DE) and were appropriately challenged. They had lots of peers with them at their level, so it's not like they were a one off. There are a lot of really smart kids in APS with involved invested parents. Also college outcomes for my kids and their friends and peers in APS were excellent.

If your kids are already out of high school or at the end of high school then they were in APS when the system was entirely different. Differentiation is now frowned upon in elementary in a way that it wasn't even a few years ago.

I agree that there are lots of options in high school and even pretty good options in middle school. This is an elementary school issue.

My oldest is at the end of high school and there really was not a lot of differentiation in elementary school. We were at a large school with one gifted teacher and there were never pull outs. It was pretty much a nothing burger.

I do agree there are many smart and motivated kids in high school in APS and they are appropriately challenged if seeking it out and have excellent college outcomes.

This topic reminds me of the debate over breastfeeding or sleep training as an infant. Things that seem very important when in a slice of time and with perspective you will see doesn’t really matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. We are currently in early elementary at APS and deciding if we should stay or move to another county. Our DC is highly gifted, and although already identified for gifted services, differentiation is pretty much not existent. DC mentioned they haven't learned anything in math at school all year, which isn't a surprise since they are able to perform multiple grade levels ahead. Not sure if we ride it out until middle school. Is the grass really greener elsewhere?

Do you like your neighborhood? Your house? Your community? Is your kid happy? Are you happy? What is your commute like if you have one? What type of lifestyle are you looking for as they get older and do you want them to have a walkable or bikable tween/teen adolescent experience or are you looking for something different? This last one is a critical thing to think about.

These are the things you should be thinking about and less about the services for giftedness in math. The math will be the same anywhere in the end and is easily solvable right now if you want to live where you are living.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. We are currently in early elementary at APS and deciding if we should stay or move to another county. Our DC is highly gifted, and although already identified for gifted services, differentiation is pretty much not existent. DC mentioned they haven't learned anything in math at school all year, which isn't a surprise since they are able to perform multiple grade levels ahead. Not sure if we ride it out until middle school. Is the grass really greener elsewhere?

No public school is going to meet the needs of a highly gifted student. If that's your kid, you need to look for a private school or other options.

The kids that are being discussed on this thread are those above 90th percentile, but not 99.7 to 99.9+ percentile. That's not what public schools are set up to accomplish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. We are currently in early elementary at APS and deciding if we should stay or move to another county. Our DC is highly gifted, and although already identified for gifted services, differentiation is pretty much not existent. DC mentioned they haven't learned anything in math at school all year, which isn't a surprise since they are able to perform multiple grade levels ahead. Not sure if we ride it out until middle school. Is the grass really greener elsewhere?

If you stay at APS you are not going to get any acceleration until middle school. That's just the way it is. If you choose to stay, I would actually recommend you stop working ahead in math so the curriculum can start to catch up. Focus that energy on other things like music, sports, reading books, building friendships, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The mantra on DCUM that APS teaches to the "lowest common denominator" is bullshit. The fact is, the APS elementary schools to which DCUM posters send their children are full of advantaged kids with high achieving and striving parents who don't need differentiation. Just look at the average test scores for these schools.

Every parent on DCUM thinks their child is the Christ Child and that the public schools--working with many, many kids and with limited budgets--owe it to them to take their kids away from the riff raff and provide them personally with a singularly gilded education. Nope, it doesn't work that way.

I know many, many privileged APS kids who get outside tutoring, particularly in math. It's rampant. Perhaps if there was differentiation available by APS all students, regardless of their ability to pay for outside tutoring, could have access to more challenging math.

I don't consider teachers offering content above the level of what is needed to pass the SOL to be inequitable. I also don't think that your child is especially special if they need more than grade-level SOL content to be challenged. That should be offered broadly as every grade at every school has kids who are capable of doing more challenging math.

By the way, some APS schools already do this. But some have taken the notion that challenging advanced students is inequitable and go out of their way to not offer anything to these students. That's not okay.

And for the record, APS math scores have been falling year after year. Test scores are lower than they were before Covid. APS really needs to do some self-reflection on what and how it's teaching. Math by iPad has not been a good addition. And the decrease in differentiation and more advanced content has not helped scores either.

Do you have very young kids? The challenge part takes care of itself starting in 6th with the different math tracks.

I have older and younger kids. The real gap is in in grades 3-5, when there's no differentiation.

For math, kids who are prepared for pre-algebra in 6th are those whose parents have paid for outside enrichment or offered it at home. APS does nothing to help kids get ready.

Both of my kids were prepared (including my current 6th grader taking pre-algebra). All we did at home was help the kids if they didn't understand a concept or if they asked to learn how to do something more advanced in math, I showed them. Not sure that really counts as “enrichment.”

I agree with others that motivated kids with involved parents will do well at any of the places OP mentions. I mean plenty of kids in APS schools do well on AP exams— if they were only taught “to the lowest common denominator,” it seems like that would be unlikely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The mantra on DCUM that APS teaches to the "lowest common denominator" is bullshit. The fact is, the APS elementary schools to which DCUM posters send their children are full of advantaged kids with high achieving and striving parents who don't need differentiation. Just look at the average test scores for these schools.

Every parent on DCUM thinks their child is the Christ Child and that the public schools--working with many, many kids and with limited budgets--owe it to them to take their kids away from the riff raff and provide them personally with a singularly gilded education. Nope, it doesn't work that way.

I know many, many privileged APS kids who get outside tutoring, particularly in math. It's rampant. Perhaps if there was differentiation available by APS all students, regardless of their ability to pay for outside tutoring, could have access to more challenging math.

I don't consider teachers offering content above the level of what is needed to pass the SOL to be inequitable. I also don't think that your child is especially special if they need more than grade-level SOL content to be challenged. That should be offered broadly as every grade at every school has kids who are capable of doing more challenging math.

By the way, some APS schools already do this. But some have taken the notion that challenging advanced students is inequitable and go out of their way to not offer anything to these students. That's not okay.

And for the record, APS math scores have been falling year after year. Test scores are lower than they were before Covid. APS really needs to do some self-reflection on what and how it's teaching. Math by iPad has not been a good addition. And the decrease in differentiation and more advanced content has not helped scores either.

Do you have very young kids? The challenge part takes care of itself starting in 6th with the different math tracks.

I have older and younger kids. The real gap is in in grades 3-5, when there's no differentiation.

For math, kids who are prepared for pre-algebra in 6th are those whose parents have paid for outside enrichment or offered it at home. APS does nothing to help kids get ready.

Yeah sorry these narratives are just not true. Might be true for a kid who doesn't really belong in pre-algebra. My child just finished pre-algebra in 6th grade. We never provided any outside enrichment at home in elementary school. She did great in pre-algebra.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I fully agree with this poster. The outcomes for advanced kids in these school systems are pretty similar. Look at the neighborhood you want to live in and go from there.

The major difference with Falls Church City is that the schools are much smaller. Once they get to high school in FCPS or APS, you're looking at huge schools -- Yorktown is one of the smaller ones with 2,200 kids. In contrast, Meridian in FCCPS has fewer than 1,000.

+10

Outcomes for unhooked HS students from APS, FCPS, and FCCPS are equivalent. Some HSs (example: Langley HS) will have higher numbers of hooked students. UVA or VT or OOS colleges will be focusing on the top 10%-20% (opinions vary where the cutoff is) of the graduating class at each HS. Even in an arbitrary Title 1 HS with high FARMS percentage, the top 10% of graduating students often have very good college matriculations.

I think you have this backwards. Yorktown, Washington-Liberty, McLean, and Meridian (all closer to DC) probably have more “hooked” kids than Langley. Langley has a lot of new money and first-generation wealth. It has the highest average test scores but, on a comparative basis, the least impressive college admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If advanced academics are important to you APS is not the best choice.

Correct. If you're looking for teaching to the lowest common denominator type curriculum? APS is perfect.

There’s no meaningful difference in college outcomes between these choices. UVA admits about 10% of the class; their instas reflect one off HYP type admissions and a handful of T5-T10 depending on specific year. Bottom line: you serve gaining an advantage by choosing one over the other in the ultimate next round admission and colleges don’t see meaningful differences in the caliber of student coming from Rhee places. That being said, there are slight differences in pedagogy and school makeup and specific strengths (eg a really strong theater program or a really good lacrosse team). If your child has specific strengths then maybe these would be important to you.

The top students at APS are there because of parents supplementing mostly. It’s not the curriculum.

As a current elementary my child is not the most advanced but is so idle in class because teacher is focused on the high need kids. It’s been a wasted year honestly. I wish they just had more recess rather than iPad time. This is a NA school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The mantra on DCUM that APS teaches to the "lowest common denominator" is bullshit. The fact is, the APS elementary schools to which DCUM posters send their children are full of advantaged kids with high achieving and striving parents who don't need differentiation. Just look at the average test scores for these schools.

Every parent on DCUM thinks their child is the Christ Child and that the public schools--working with many, many kids and with limited budgets--owe it to them to take their kids away from the riff raff and provide them personally with a singularly gilded education. Nope, it doesn't work that way.

I know many, many privileged APS kids who get outside tutoring, particularly in math. It's rampant. Perhaps if there was differentiation available by APS all students, regardless of their ability to pay for outside tutoring, could have access to more challenging math.

I don't consider teachers offering content above the level of what is needed to pass the SOL to be inequitable. I also don't think that your child is especially special if they need more than grade-level SOL content to be challenged. That should be offered broadly as every grade at every school has kids who are capable of doing more challenging math.

By the way, some APS schools already do this. But some have taken the notion that challenging advanced students is inequitable and go out of their way to not offer anything to these students. That's not okay.

And for the record, APS math scores have been falling year after year. Test scores are lower than they were before Covid. APS really needs to do some self-reflection on what and how it's teaching. Math by iPad has not been a good addition. And the decrease in differentiation and more advanced content has not helped scores either.

Do you have very young kids? The challenge part takes care of itself starting in 6th with the different math tracks.

I have older and younger kids. The real gap is in in grades 3-5, when there's no differentiation.

For math, kids who are prepared for pre-algebra in 6th are those whose parents have paid for outside enrichment or offered it at home. APS does nothing to help kids get ready.

Yeah sorry these narratives are just not true. Might be true for a kid who doesn't really belong in pre-algebra. My child just finished pre-algebra in 6th grade. We never provided any outside enrichment at home in elementary school. She did great in pre-algebra.

Middle school math in APS even on the Algebra tract is very watered down. Getting an A is hardly notable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. We are currently in early elementary at APS and deciding if we should stay or move to another county. Our DC is highly gifted, and although already identified for gifted services, differentiation is pretty much not existent. DC mentioned they haven't learned anything in math at school all year, which isn't a surprise since they are able to perform multiple grade levels ahead. Not sure if we ride it out until middle school. Is the grass really greener elsewhere?

Do you like your neighborhood? Your house? Your community? Is your kid happy? Are you happy? What is your commute like if you have one? What type of lifestyle are you looking for as they get older and do you want them to have a walkable or bikable tween/teen adolescent experience or are you looking for something different? This last one is a critical thing to think about.

These are the things you should be thinking about and less about the services for giftedness in math. The math will be the same anywhere in the end and is easily solvable right now if you want to live where you are living.

100%. My 99th percentile in everything kid had times he was bored in APS but as parents who both worked outside of the home we valued a short commute. As he got older he could walk and bike places. Arlington has lots available for teens. Ended up in intensified classes and TJ. No regrets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. We are currently in early elementary at APS and deciding if we should stay or move to another county. Our DC is highly gifted, and although already identified for gifted services, differentiation is pretty much not existent. DC mentioned they haven't learned anything in math at school all year, which isn't a surprise since they are able to perform multiple grade levels ahead. Not sure if we ride it out until middle school. Is the grass really greener elsewhere?

Do you like your neighborhood? Your house? Your community? Is your kid happy? Are you happy? What is your commute like if you have one? What type of lifestyle are you looking for as they get older and do you want them to have a walkable or bikable tween/teen adolescent experience or are you looking for something different? This last one is a critical thing to think about.

These are the things you should be thinking about and less about the services for giftedness in math. The math will be the same anywhere in the end and is easily solvable right now if you want to live where you are living.

100%. My 99th percentile in everything kid had times he was bored in APS but as parents who both worked outside of the home we valued a short commute. As he got older he could walk and bike places. Arlington has lots available for teens. Ended up in intensified classes and TJ. No regrets.

Yeah, if you get to leave APS for high school and go to the Governor School at TJ of course you like the outcome

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. We are currently in early elementary at APS and deciding if we should stay or move to another county. Our DC is highly gifted, and although already identified for gifted services, differentiation is pretty much not existent. DC mentioned they haven't learned anything in math at school all year, which isn't a surprise since they are able to perform multiple grade levels ahead. Not sure if we ride it out until middle school. Is the grass really greener elsewhere?

You’ll do just fine in APS if they are highly highly gifted. Lucky for you every parent in APS I ever met had a child highly highly gifted in something.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. We are currently in early elementary at APS and deciding if we should stay or move to another county. Our DC is highly gifted, and although already identified for gifted services, differentiation is pretty much not existent. DC mentioned they haven't learned anything in math at school all year, which isn't a surprise since they are able to perform multiple grade levels ahead. Not sure if we ride it out until middle school. Is the grass really greener elsewhere?

Do you like your neighborhood? Your house? Your community? Is your kid happy? Are you happy? What is your commute like if you have one? What type of lifestyle are you looking for as they get older and do you want them to have a walkable or bikable tween/teen adolescent experience or are you looking for something different? This last one is a critical thing to think about.

These are the things you should be thinking about and less about the services for giftedness in math. The math will be the same anywhere in the end and is easily solvable right now if you want to live where you are living.

100%. My 99th percentile in everything kid had times he was bored in APS but as parents who both worked outside of the home we valued a short commute. As he got older he could walk and bike places. Arlington has lots available for teens. Ended up in intensified classes and TJ. No regrets.

Yeah, if you get to leave APS for high school and go to the Governor School at TJ of course you like the outcome

Haha fair. But you can get there from any of the districts

[Anonymous]

Even in high school there is not a lot of differentiation other than AP classes. Sometimes the "intensified" classes are actually challenging but now always. So that means kids are locked into needing to take a lot of APs (or IB). At other schools there may be honors classes that cover more targeted topics that are not AP survey classes and are still challenging.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If advanced academics are important to you APS is not the best choice.

Correct. If you're looking for teaching to the lowest common denominator type curriculum? APS is perfect.

There’s no meaningful difference in college outcomes between these choices. UVA admits about 10% of the class; their instas reflect one off HYP type admissions and a handful of T5-T10 depending on specific year. Bottom line: you serve gaining an advantage by choosing one over the other in the ultimate next round admission and colleges don’t see meaningful differences in the caliber of student coming from Rhee places. That being said, there are slight differences in pedagogy and school makeup and specific strengths (eg a really strong theater program or a really good lacrosse team). If your child has specific strengths then maybe these would be important to you.

The top students at APS are there because of parents supplementing mostly. It’s not the curriculum.

As a current elementary my child is not the most advanced but is so idle in class because teacher is focused on the high need kids. It’s been a wasted year honestly. I wish they just had more recess rather than iPad time. This is a NA school

No the top students at APS are not just there because of supplementing. This is a naive comment by an elem parent who doesn't know what they don't know. Wait until your kid gets to high school to pass judgment like that.