Paid Additional Coach Clinics During Volleyball Season

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This isn’t an ethics scandal… it’s how youth sports work everywhere, not just volleyball. Is the argument really that coaches’ time and court space should be freely available on demand for extra development? Certainly nobody can argue that. You’re paying more because it’s literally extra... extra reps, extra coaching, extra gym time… so if you don’t want it, don’t buy it, but calling it unethical because others do is just performative outrage.

That's not true no matter how forcefully you say it. Coaches making extra money from their players may act to keep that money flowing. You can give that player a spot on your team (or club) because you can milk the family. Then you can pretend you see that player wanted to improve and making the effort. Even if there is no bias, there still perceived bias, which is equally bad.

Which club is doing clinics in this kind of milking way? I have never seen it play out like this.
I suppose YMMV, but if you think you see this kind of thing happening at your club this year, you should not be there next year. I don't think this happens at most clubs like this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes this is normal and no you don’t have to sign up for it. My DD cannot do it because of her schedule but she does extra workouts at home and I made sure to let the coach know how hard she tries.

I don't think we see "normal" the same way. The coaches can do their best during practice and encourage players to do extra outside practice. Taking extra money from their players is not ethical no matter how you look at it. If they want to supplement their income, they could offer private lessons to players outside the club. If their players need extra practice, the coaches should ask the club director to include extra practice sessions for the team. That might increase the club fees, but it would eliminate the bias or perceived bias mentioned earlier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some clubs test how much money you are willing to throw at them. The tryout outcome may depend on how much you spend. Perfectly normal, depending on your definition of normal.

No club is measuring how much money you spend. Are they paying attention to which kids are in the gym and focused on improving? Yes.
Would you tip the scale at tryouts in favor of someone you know who is putting in extra effort to improve? Also yes.

Is there a cost (clinics, privates) to improve? Yes.
But the "test" is about improving performance, not about how much you spend.

Ok- so you spend a lot! Got it.

Nobody said volleyball was cheap, but I also can't think of a sport where the expectation is not additional work (for an additional fee) outside of the gym or off the field.

Yeah softball is definitely worse for this.
I think I’d prefer a club that charges X with an expectation of practice 2 times per week and then permits kids to buy additional coaching for Y, that than a club that charges X + Y and then requires the kids to go to 3 practices a week. This system probably allows them to keep the base cost lower and accommodates some kids that aren’t as interested in lots of extra practices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This isn’t an ethics scandal… it’s how youth sports work everywhere, not just volleyball. Is the argument really that coaches’ time and court space should be freely available on demand for extra development? Certainly nobody can argue that. You’re paying more because it’s literally extra... extra reps, extra coaching, extra gym time… so if you don’t want it, don’t buy it, but calling it unethical because others do is just performative outrage.

That's not true no matter how forcefully you say it. Coaches making extra money from their players may act to keep that money flowing. You can give that player a spot on your team (or club) because you can milk the family. Then you can pretend you see that player wanted to improve and making the effort. Even if there is no bias, there still perceived bias, which is equally bad.

Which club is doing clinics in this kind of milking way? I have never seen it play out like this.
I suppose YMMV, but if you think you see this kind of thing happening at your club this year, you should not be there next year. I don't think this happens at most clubs like this.

It hasn’t been our experience either. We got the feeling it was this way at one club and DD didn’t try out there for that reason.

[Anonymous]

^ I mean, she went to plenty of private lessons and extra training sessions but we only got the vibe from one particular club that they were highly encouraged to be done right there, by their own players and given by their own coaches. It was a turn off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This isn’t an ethics scandal… it’s how youth sports work everywhere, not just volleyball. Is the argument really that coaches’ time and court space should be freely available on demand for extra development? Certainly nobody can argue that. You’re paying more because it’s literally extra... extra reps, extra coaching, extra gym time… so if you don’t want it, don’t buy it, but calling it unethical because others do is just performative outrage.

That's not true no matter how forcefully you say it. Coaches making extra money from their players may act to keep that money flowing. You can give that player a spot on your team (or club) because you can milk the family. Then you can pretend you see that player wanted to improve and making the effort. Even if there is no bias, there still perceived bias, which is equally bad.

Which club is doing clinics in this kind of milking way? I have never seen it play out like this.
I suppose YMMV, but if you think you see this kind of thing happening at your club this year, you should not be there next year. I don't think this happens at most clubs like this.

I think most people on this thread are talking hypotheticals, except for the OP. The poster who sees this as normal might be a parent who throws a lot of money at their coach. Or a coach who wants to see this practice normalized.

[Anonymous]

As someone with a son in competitive travel hockey and a DD in 12s volleyball, this “ethics” debate feels wildly misplaced. In hockey I’m easily around $20k a year once you factor in team fees, travel, plus skating clinics and privates, and no one pretends that’s unethical. Team practices are about building the team as a unit; clinics and privates are about developing the individual athlete.

Volleyball is no different. Competitive sports require investment in time and effort, and modern youth sports are also a business that requires financial investment. You can dislike the cost or opt out of the extras, but framing standard development opportunities as a moral failing just misunderstands how competitive sports actually work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As someone with a son in competitive travel hockey and a DD in 12s volleyball, this “ethics” debate feels wildly misplaced. In hockey I’m easily around $20k a year once you factor in team fees, travel, plus skating clinics and privates, and no one pretends that’s unethical. Team practices are about building the team as a unit; clinics and privates are about developing the individual athlete.

Volleyball is no different. Competitive sports require investment in time and effort, and modern youth sports are also a business that requires financial investment. You can dislike the cost or opt out of the extras, but framing standard development opportunities as a moral failing just misunderstands how competitive sports actually work.

Eh- maybe we just want to complain about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As someone with a son in competitive travel hockey and a DD in 12s volleyball, this “ethics” debate feels wildly misplaced. In hockey I’m easily around $20k a year once you factor in team fees, travel, plus skating clinics and privates, and no one pretends that’s unethical. Team practices are about building the team as a unit; clinics and privates are about developing the individual athlete.

Volleyball is no different. Competitive sports require investment in time and effort, and modern youth sports are also a business that requires financial investment. You can dislike the cost or opt out of the extras, but framing standard development opportunities as a moral failing just misunderstands how competitive sports actually work.

Nobody tells you not to spend the money if you want to. There are no ethical concerns as long as you are using a private coach that is not affiliated with the club. But you may have noticed that we are discussing a coach setting up additional practice sessions with their own players. This is where the pressure to participate (and pay extra) could cross ethical boundaries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone with a son in competitive travel hockey and a DD in 12s volleyball, this “ethics” debate feels wildly misplaced. In hockey I’m easily around $20k a year once you factor in team fees, travel, plus skating clinics and privates, and no one pretends that’s unethical. Team practices are about building the team as a unit; clinics and privates are about developing the individual athlete.

Volleyball is no different. Competitive sports require investment in time and effort, and modern youth sports are also a business that requires financial investment. You can dislike the cost or opt out of the extras, but framing standard development opportunities as a moral failing just misunderstands how competitive sports actually work.

Nobody tells you not to spend the money if you want to. There are no ethical concerns as long as you are using a private coach that is not affiliated with the club. But you may have noticed that we are discussing a coach setting up additional practice sessions with their own players. This is where the pressure to participate (and pay extra) could cross ethical boundaries.

Every hockey player I know does private training with coaches affiliated with our club. Every volleyball player I know does private training with coaches affiliated with our club.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone with a son in competitive travel hockey and a DD in 12s volleyball, this “ethics” debate feels wildly misplaced. In hockey I’m easily around $20k a year once you factor in team fees, travel, plus skating clinics and privates, and no one pretends that’s unethical. Team practices are about building the team as a unit; clinics and privates are about developing the individual athlete.

Volleyball is no different. Competitive sports require investment in time and effort, and modern youth sports are also a business that requires financial investment. You can dislike the cost or opt out of the extras, but framing standard development opportunities as a moral failing just misunderstands how competitive sports actually work.

Nobody tells you not to spend the money if you want to. There are no ethical concerns as long as you are using a private coach that is not affiliated with the club. But you may have noticed that we are discussing a coach setting up additional practice sessions with their own players. This is where the pressure to participate (and pay extra) could cross ethical boundaries.

Every hockey player I know does private training with coaches affiliated with our club. Every volleyball player I know does private training with coaches affiliated with our club.

I know coaches who use their positions to pressure players into paying for extra lessons they do not want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone with a son in competitive travel hockey and a DD in 12s volleyball, this “ethics” debate feels wildly misplaced. In hockey I’m easily around $20k a year once you factor in team fees, travel, plus skating clinics and privates, and no one pretends that’s unethical. Team practices are about building the team as a unit; clinics and privates are about developing the individual athlete.

Volleyball is no different. Competitive sports require investment in time and effort, and modern youth sports are also a business that requires financial investment. You can dislike the cost or opt out of the extras, but framing standard development opportunities as a moral failing just misunderstands how competitive sports actually work.

Nobody tells you not to spend the money if you want to. There are no ethical concerns as long as you are using a private coach that is not affiliated with the club. But you may have noticed that we are discussing a coach setting up additional practice sessions with their own players. This is where the pressure to participate (and pay extra) could cross ethical boundaries.

Every hockey player I know does private training with coaches affiliated with our club. Every volleyball player I know does private training with coaches affiliated with our club.

How many hockey players do you know? How many volleyball players do you know? You must be in a select group because the players we know don't do it. Unless they do it and don't say anything about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone with a son in competitive travel hockey and a DD in 12s volleyball, this “ethics” debate feels wildly misplaced. In hockey I’m easily around $20k a year once you factor in team fees, travel, plus skating clinics and privates, and no one pretends that’s unethical. Team practices are about building the team as a unit; clinics and privates are about developing the individual athlete.

Volleyball is no different. Competitive sports require investment in time and effort, and modern youth sports are also a business that requires financial investment. You can dislike the cost or opt out of the extras, but framing standard development opportunities as a moral failing just misunderstands how competitive sports actually work.

Nobody tells you not to spend the money if you want to. There are no ethical concerns as long as you are using a private coach that is not affiliated with the club. But you may have noticed that we are discussing a coach setting up additional practice sessions with their own players. This is where the pressure to participate (and pay extra) could cross ethical boundaries.

Every hockey player I know does private training with coaches affiliated with our club. Every volleyball player I know does private training with coaches affiliated with our club.

How many hockey players do you know? How many volleyball players do you know? You must be in a select group because the players we know don't do it. Unless they do it and don't say anything about it.

A ton. DS is a 15yo hockey player on a competitive team and has played since he could skate, so we've been in this world for a long while. "Extras" are a non-negotiable, broadly understood and accepted practice in hockey. My overall point is you would never see this thread in a forum for many other sports. It's just part of the expectation for players, and parents don't scream about ethics. DD plays 12U volleyball and is in her 3rd year of club volleyball. Spouse corrected me on volleyball - on our team of 10, 7 of 10 are actively doing privates that we know about.

Competitive sports are flat-out expensive. I'm not complaining about that, because it is what it is, and it brings my kids a lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone with a son in competitive travel hockey and a DD in 12s volleyball, this “ethics” debate feels wildly misplaced. In hockey I’m easily around $20k a year once you factor in team fees, travel, plus skating clinics and privates, and no one pretends that’s unethical. Team practices are about building the team as a unit; clinics and privates are about developing the individual athlete.

Volleyball is no different. Competitive sports require investment in time and effort, and modern youth sports are also a business that requires financial investment. You can dislike the cost or opt out of the extras, but framing standard development opportunities as a moral failing just misunderstands how competitive sports actually work.

Nobody tells you not to spend the money if you want to. There are no ethical concerns as long as you are using a private coach that is not affiliated with the club. But you may have noticed that we are discussing a coach setting up additional practice sessions with their own players. This is where the pressure to participate (and pay extra) could cross ethical boundaries.

Every hockey player I know does private training with coaches affiliated with our club. Every volleyball player I know does private training with coaches affiliated with our club.

How many hockey players do you know? How many volleyball players do you know? You must be in a select group because the players we know don't do it. Unless they do it and don't say anything about it.

A ton. DS is a 15yo hockey player on a competitive team and has played since he could skate, so we've been in this world for a long while. "Extras" are a non-negotiable, broadly understood and accepted practice in hockey. My overall point is you would never see this thread in a forum for many other sports. It's just part of the expectation for players, and parents don't scream about ethics. DD plays 12U volleyball and is in her 3rd year of club volleyball. Spouse corrected me on volleyball - on our team of 10, 7 of 10 are actively doing privates that we know about.

Competitive sports are flat-out expensive. I'm not complaining about that, because it is what it is, and it brings my kids a lot.

And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for the pesky inconvenient ethics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone with a son in competitive travel hockey and a DD in 12s volleyball, this “ethics” debate feels wildly misplaced. In hockey I’m easily around $20k a year once you factor in team fees, travel, plus skating clinics and privates, and no one pretends that’s unethical. Team practices are about building the team as a unit; clinics and privates are about developing the individual athlete.

Volleyball is no different. Competitive sports require investment in time and effort, and modern youth sports are also a business that requires financial investment. You can dislike the cost or opt out of the extras, but framing standard development opportunities as a moral failing just misunderstands how competitive sports actually work.

Nobody tells you not to spend the money if you want to. There are no ethical concerns as long as you are using a private coach that is not affiliated with the club. But you may have noticed that we are discussing a coach setting up additional practice sessions with their own players. This is where the pressure to participate (and pay extra) could cross ethical boundaries.

Every hockey player I know does private training with coaches affiliated with our club. Every volleyball player I know does private training with coaches affiliated with our club.

How many hockey players do you know? How many volleyball players do you know? You must be in a select group because the players we know don't do it. Unless they do it and don't say anything about it.

A ton. DS is a 15yo hockey player on a competitive team and has played since he could skate, so we've been in this world for a long while. "Extras" are a non-negotiable, broadly understood and accepted practice in hockey. My overall point is you would never see this thread in a forum for many other sports. It's just part of the expectation for players, and parents don't scream about ethics. DD plays 12U volleyball and is in her 3rd year of club volleyball. Spouse corrected me on volleyball - on our team of 10, 7 of 10 are actively doing privates that we know about.

Competitive sports are flat-out expensive. I'm not complaining about that, because it is what it is, and it brings my kids a lot.

Many of us think you are at a money grabbing club and getting scammed and that’s why this is your normal. It’s not that typical to start this madness at U9 and paying club fees that early. They got you at a young age and you bought in. That’s why you think this is normal. It’s not.